I think that would be another good analogue to a Lebed presidency.
Zhirinovsky's Russian Empire
- Thread starter Pellegrino
- Start date
I think that would be another good analogue to a Lebed presidency.
Not to give away too much, but I am thinking the next update will be called: "Bizzaro World's Tiananmen Square"
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Park Chung Hee is credited with the reformation of the South Korean economy, so I guess Lebed could become another good analogue. Perhaps some sort of New Society Movement can be launched in the post-Zhirinovsky UIS, with someone else other than Lebed leading it.
Fantastic update, one of the best yet.
Pinochet did not help the economy at all. There was nothing redeemable about his presidency.
Pinochet did not help the economy at all. There was nothing redeemable about his presidency.
I am not a fan of Pinochet and won't defend anything about his presidency. The only thing I will say is compared to other totalitarian dictators he was less of a disaster and was somewhat pro business.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
We could have a Russian analogue to Ferdinand Marcos, though I don't know if either Putin or even Sergei Baburin, the leader of the Russian All People's Union, will qualify.
Incognito
Banned
Wait, wait, wait... are you trying to say "Heil Zhirinovsky"? Because what you are saying is "Call Zhirinovsky" which does not have the type of connotations you are going for (just like if you were to say "Call Hitler" in English it would not have the same contentions as what you would be going for if you were giving a Nazi salute). Although I have thankfully never met Russian neo-nazis, so as far as I understand they use the German word "heil" without translations it into Russian. Maybe you could have the LD supporter in your timeline say "Slava Zhirinovskomu" which would mean "Glory (to) Zhirinovky"?
Thanks Incognito! I used a online translation and picked "zvat" since it sounded more sinister without knowing if it really fit with the context I was looking for. I plan to amend the updated final edition with your suggestion in mind.
A somewhat low bar - Mussolini could also be called "somewhat pro business."
Bruce
A somewhat low bar - Mussolini could also be called "somewhat pro business."
Bruce
Lol, OK I will give Pinochet that too. He is better than Mussolini. But I am hating the fact that I am even remotely defending him. By right wing dictator standards, he was not bad (which is like saying, by cancer standards, testicular cancer ain't bad. Easy to say when you compare it to pancreatic cancer. But hard to say to somebody who has it). Unlike with a Noriega in Panama or a Roberto D'Aubuiason in El Salvador, Pinochet took steps to build the economy with mixed results. The economy did grow (unlike Panama, which tuened into a full fledged failed state under Noriega) but odds are it would has grown much, much more as a functioning democracy. As a result, comparisons to South Korea's military dictatorships are not unwarranted (the daughter of one of the dictators was just elected president of South Korea, which indicates at least some South Koreans felt the dictatorship was benificial to them, I don't see a Pinochet ever winning an election in Chile). So I suppose in a sliding scale of right wing dictators, with Alberto Fujumori being 1 and Adolf Hitler being 10, Pinochet would probably be a 4. With that being said I think 0 is the ideal standard.
Lol, we may not end up knowing. This TL ends with Zhirinovsky being ousted in 2003, and we know Lebed is still in power in early 2012. So barring a conclusion chapter that touches on that (or a Protect and Survive type spinoff) we may not know.
With that being said, in late 2012 it would be interesting to see what happens in Russia if the Arab spring happens just as it did in OTL. Could be just the thing to create a Moscow Spring.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
But I guess Lebed cracks down on the color revolutionaries attempting to overthrow him.
Incognito
Banned
One other thing that bugs me about your Nazi salutes... is how frequent they are. First you have them being used by some douchbags on the streets... then you mention them being used on national television by Zhirinovsky's campaign staff... now you have the military use them? That seems like saying if Tea Party gets into power, they would encourage widespread use of KKK attire. Sure, the party may have racists some of whom sympathies with Hitler, but just because you’re a bigot doesn't mean you automatically like Hitler. Especially in Russia where there are still plenty of people who either lived through WW2 themselves or who's mothers and fathers lived through it. Given that the LDP has a wide & varied support base that’s not limited to neo-nazis, I doubt they would want to alienate most of ther base by appealing to a fringe that admires Hitler.
Assuming these are not butterflied away...
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Again valid points, but I do feel that the LDPR was at its most extreme and radical around 1993 before the departure of men like Edmund Liminov (who felt the LDPR was not extreme enough) and Andrey Zavadiya (who felt the LDPR was too radical) brought things down a notch with the party. But again in 1994, before Rwanda and Srebrenica there did exist the belief that "just following orders" would be a valid defense for just about any sort of war crime (Cambodia comes to mind) and there was a feeling that the UN war crimes tribunal was a paper tiger and would never dig that deep if they were to go after someone like Zhirinovsky. If the military makes Zhirinovsky and the LDPR look even more extreme and powerful than they might actually be, that could act as a cover for when the time come to oust Zhirinovsky and send him to the Hague. But we do have evidence that the extreme Bolshevik Party soon emerges, and that Zhirinovsky's allies in the LDPR also start to bolt (interviews with Zavadiya indicate he leaves the party before the 1996 election).
As for the campaign rally where the aid was giving fascist salutes, keep in mind there was the reference to the state media sanitizing the rally and making Zhirinovsky look "almost normal"
I have serious doubts about facist salute. Keep in mind that two generation of Russians were raised on legend of Soviet victory in WWII. "The Great Patriotic War" play important role in Russian national mythology and for ordinary Russian (not mentioned military) facist salute will be associated only with "German Facists who invaded out motherland" . Z man can not ignote this.
ITTL LDP will certainly use victory in WWII for propaganda reasons, can you imagine Victory Day parade on 9th may in Red Square with Russian Troops making facist salute? Did anyone in Russia exept weird neo-nazis will find facist salute normal? Not mentioned about complet PR disaster.
Funny thing is if Zhirinovsky is able to hold power and win democratic elections, it means he succesfully get support of "ordinary citizen" playing patriotic and atiwestern card (WWII victory etc.). So neo-nazis will be margin and making facist salute on his rallies only can make things worse. Being nationalist is not equal with being facist. Not mentioned that after revelation about Zhiri father most neo-nazis most likely will despise him.
ITTL LDP will certainly use victory in WWII for propaganda reasons, can you imagine Victory Day parade on 9th may in Red Square with Russian Troops making facist salute? Did anyone in Russia exept weird neo-nazis will find facist salute normal? Not mentioned about complet PR disaster.
Funny thing is if Zhirinovsky is able to hold power and win democratic elections, it means he succesfully get support of "ordinary citizen" playing patriotic and atiwestern card (WWII victory etc.). So neo-nazis will be margin and making facist salute on his rallies only can make things worse. Being nationalist is not equal with being facist. Not mentioned that after revelation about Zhiri father most neo-nazis most likely will despise him.
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