M4A3E8

Would the best way to improve the Sherman be to make better AT ammunition for the 75mm?

The standard anti-tank shell was APCBC, I think. If the British could make discarding-sabot ammunition for the 6pdr (and maybe for the 17pdr and 77mm?) it should have been possible to make a 75mm APDS shell for the the 75mm.

Then you can keep all the advantages of the 75mm HE round, but have greater armour penetration when you need it.

The OQF 75mm used the same ammo, so British Cromwells and Churchills would have the same APDS round.

(I will now wait for someone who actually understands the physics involved!)
APDS was a problematic round. Getting proper seperation of the sabot was a problem and APDS was less accurate than APC, APCBC, or APCR(HVAP). Also the british did not believe in putting an explosive filler in AP type rounds. Even the American supplied rounds were delivered unfilled (I have read conflicting reports about whether they filled the cavity with an inert filler or left empty).
One of the big advantages the Germans had was a very effective APHE round that once it penetrated the armor would explode and send hot fragments and explosive gasses around the interior
 
Other than every AD screaming for more Jumbos, but production had ended before the first one landed in France
Patton's 3rd Army was the only one with a plan to for a near standardized plan for up-armoring existing Shermans using plates cut from knocked out Sherman and German Tanks
Patton's view of uparmoring was variable at best. He ranted against individual and unit attempts to uparmor because it destroyed the mobility and stressed the drivetrain and suspension. But his ordnance shops set up modification shops to upgrade armor.
 
Other than every AD screaming for more Jumbos, but production had ended before the first one landed in France
Patton's 3rd Army was the only one with a plan to for a near standardized plan for up-armoring existing Shermans using plates cut from knocked out Sherman and German Tanks

Because yes they wanted thicker armour and a bigger gun, who wouldn't. But I'm also guessing they also wanted it to be as quick as a Sherman and easily repairable and able to cross the same rated bridges and so on and you'd get complaints about those aspects if the situation was reversed.

An unavoidable fact of war is Commanders want everything, all capabilities, and they want it yesterday and double the numbers, but reality is very often they can't have it.

Just because the US army was better served than most when it came to putting the right stuff in the right place at the right time and in useful numbers doesn't actually mean that US production and Logistics was a Santa's sack were every good little division commander got what they wanted.

Patton's view of uparmoring was variable at best. He ranted against individual and unit attempts to uparmor because it destroyed the mobility and stressed the drivetrain and suspension. But his ordnance shops set up modification shops to upgrade armor.

Exactly

and IIRC Patton's more organised attempts was more putting extra protection on specific areas rather than the equivalent of a Jumbo's armour upgrade. Precisely because of that trade off (but TBF people did all sorts to their tanks and I guess many a Tank pool crew were reduced to tears by it)

Even with the Jumbo, the crews sometimes added extra protection



Plus it's not like the Jumbo was the only Sherman with upgraded armour

TBH I think one big reason why we didn't see lots of Jumbo variants was we saw lots of easy 8's instead
 
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McPherson

Banned
Its not like the US had any other tank to use, and the latest M1 is now heavier than the Tiger II
Not the point. If one has a new 60 metric tonne tank, but 50 metric ton capacity moving equipment, then one has to update the moving equipment to meet the new load weight requirement of 60 metric tonnes for the M1 tank.

This includes updated:

--pontoon bridging
--cranes
--transporters
--armored recovery vehicles
--armored engineer vehicles
--helos able to crane the new tank in vertical lift

etc., etc., etc....
 
I think it would be interesting to compare US developments in light of what the others were doing.

The USSR, Commonwealth and Germans all tried to push the enveloppe further after 1941 with things like the 85, 100 and 122mm guns (first deployed in 1943, last two in mid-late 1944); the 17 pounder (proposed in 1940-41), super high velocity 2 and 6 pounders with focus on APDS, 75 L70 and 88 L71 both first seen in 1943.

The US decision to focus new development on a lightweight 76mm instead of a more powerful one at the same weight as the M7 (or slightly lighter only) was meant to reduce the weight of the turrets and tanks able to carry them, possibly immediately fit in the 75 Sherman turret and reduce ammunition size (the barrel was longer than on the M7 to keep velocity the same with a smaller charge). This was particularly consistent with the US focus on super lightweight TDs.
However, in light of the late introduction of the 76 Sherman (dictated by very stringent requirements on ergonomics) and the Hellcat (without even considering to question the emphasis on low weight for TDs in the first place), this type of gun was completely out of place in the 1944-45 battlefield. It is also worth noting that the 75mm lightweight gun and associated light tank were also particularly late, resulting in many complaints about insufficient armament. The next light tank requirements immediately emphasized a 76mm gun of at least the same class as the M1A2 in 1946.
Now, the US was able to get away with this because of the low concentration of heavily armored German tanks in the Western Front directly facing them, logistical problems on the German side preventing said tanks from operating effectively and finally good combined arms tactics to take them out. That said, that does not mean that greater firepower wouldn't have been useful. Using technology to alleviate tactical or training limitations is always useful.

If one actually looks at US tank gun development programs and implementation prior to the 1943-45 (and really 44-45) explosion (with high velocity 90, 105 and 120mm guns), they do leave much to be desired. We only get the 75 M2, M3, lightweight 75mm (not used until the Chaffee), 76 M7, 76 M1 (not used until late 1943) and 90mm M3 (not used until 1944, yet available for testing since November 1942). Meanwhile the Sovs were testing at least two to four flavors of 85mm guns alone.

The 90mm definitely could have been developped from the AA gun sooner AND implemented on tanks sooner, as the M10 GMC could carry it without any more issues than the 76 M7. The technology used for the lightweight 76mm could have been used to either create a new gun or just redo the M7 (new longer lightweight barrel) for a muzzle velocity of 3000/3200 fps instead of 2600 for the M1A2. That is, more or less the class of the 17 pounder. The implementation wouldn't have been any later than the 76 M1 since both guns required a new turret for the Sherman and new hull/turret for the M18 Hellcat. They would just be scaled up appropriately. This option would have been a bit more practical than the 90mm due to the somewhat smaller rounds and still slightly lighter and more compact gun.​



Regarding the problem of the manufacturing capability for a new tank, of course one would have to look at exactly what tooling was used in the factories that left tank building in 1943-44, where that tooling went afterwards and what those companies were making afterwards. I still think there was spare capacity in that regard just like there was for the M26 Pershing (or really all the T2X series, these had to be built somewhere after all). Even then, a new tank would surely require some of the tooling to be replaced anyway. I should also point out that there was a serious backlog of Shermans in 1943-44 that were awaiting shipment, so even converting an existing operating line to build a new tank wouldn't necessarily delay deliveries of tanks outside of the US.

Regarding the question of weight, it's an interesting one because after all the US still was willing to develop the monstrous M6, the T14 Assault Tank and the 1945 heavy tanks (with some outright being earmarked for the invasion of Japan), so surely they were thinking the shipping logistics could be worked out, otherwise they wouldn't have made any of these tanks in the first place.

But even if one considered the 40 short ton limit of most dock cranes often mentioned by The_Chieftain, that still leaves a maximum metric weight of 36.287 tonnes. The M4A3E8 (76)W is among the heaviest Shermans and weighs 37.1 short tons (33.5 metric). That gives at least 2 extra short tonnes to play with, and that's before adressing the inefficiencies of the Sherman design.

Redesigns of the Sherman itself were considered but the choice fell on the more radical T2X series. It certainly made sense as these would be the most efficient option. However the rear placement of the transmission evidently led to cooling and reliability problems that weren't seen on the M4 (evidenced by the poor reliability of the T22 that used the same transmission as the Sherman). Much worse, highest priority was given to the prototype with the electric transmission, the T23. This transmission did perform a lot better and was not as hard to maintain as other similar transmissions in foreign countries, but it definitely was ill-advised to prioritize such a radical option in wartime over more conventionnal designs like the Torqmatic and Hydramatic tested in the M6 and eventually used in the M26. Moreso when the latter promising types needed some work to perform reliably.
The sheer inefficiency of the Sherman layout offered plenty of room for improvement even while keeping the front drive. A simple transfer case for the radial powered versions and nothing for the other engines would have allowed a major reduction in hull height (this was done on the M10/M36 GMC hull). Sloping the sponsons were a good option to improve protection there without an undue increase in weight. The Detroit Arsenal proposal for such a redesign allowed it to keep the same weight as the OG Sherman with sponsons sloped at 30° and a simpler hull front. Lengthening the hull a bit to increase the front slope while keeping large hatches should also have been more efficient and would work well with the changes induced by the lower hull. The fighting compartement generally makes an inefficient use of space.
The Australian Sentinel is a decent example of how well you can do with front drive (a simplified M4 transmission even) and a compact engine with an otherwise similar style as the T2X series. The version with a 70" turret ring to accomodate a 17pdr was expected to weigh about 32 metric tonnes with thicker side armor and a better front slope than the small hatch Shermans with the same plate thickness.

HVSS was tested in 1942 on both the Sherman and was seen in 1941 on the M6 Heavy, but the lack of wider tracks for the former and the poor performance of the tracks of the latter on medium tanks meant that it wasn't interesting to introduce them right away. Had there been more interest in developping dedicated wider tracks for a new medium tank derived from the Sherman in 1942, HVSS would have been deployed sooner.​
A 600HP+ class engine like the Guiberson T2800, Caterpillar D200A, Chrysler A65 or Ford GAC with adequately strengthened Torqmatic would be desirable and probably even feasible for 1944 but dubious earlier.

IMO even the austere proposal of a Sherman with front drive, HVSS, redesigned hull and ability to carry a 3000 fps 76mm gun without any serious increase in armor would still be appealing for late 1943 production and well within US capability. The front drive placement would avoid the development issues that plagued the T2X series and the HVSS can be made ready sooner than medium tank torsion bars. This is hardly more complicated than the entire Soviet development line from the KV-13 to the IS-2, or the T-43 which was far more likely to fail simply because the Soviets were playing with an even more overburdened hull.
 

marathag

Banned
Patton's view of uparmoring was variable at best. He ranted against individual and unit attempts to uparmor because it destroyed the mobility and stressed the drivetrain and suspension. But his ordnance shops set up modification shops to upgrade armor.
He didn't want to see the ad-hoc Rhinos that First Army was doing with sandbags or concrete, that added a lot of weight with little actual increase in protection
 

cardcarrier

Banned
He didn't want to see the ad-hoc Rhinos that First Army was doing with sandbags or concrete, that added a lot of weight with little actual increase in protection
TBH the soviets had more luck lashing matress box springs to their tanks to prematurely detonate German anti tank rockets than anyone did with the sand bangs/concrete/or other stuff
 
The T45 HVAP was developed for the 75mm, but not Standardized for production
Came across this little beauty a few (many) years ago. Always struck me that an "Easy Eight" with all the other attributes, but retaining the 75mm main gun, would have been more than sufficient (hindsight in action) for the late war years with the provision of the T45 in reasonable quantity. This round could have been supplemented in the last year of the war with a quality HEAT round for longer range sniping.
 
I think it would be interesting to compare US developments in light of what the others were doing.

The USSR, Commonwealth and Germans all tried to push the enveloppe further after 1941 with things like the 85, 100 and 122mm guns (first deployed in 1943, last two in mid-late 1944); the 17 pounder (proposed in 1940-41), super high velocity 2 and 6 pounders with focus on APDS, 75 L70 and 88 L71 both first seen in 1943.

The US decision to focus new development on a lightweight 76mm instead of a more powerful one at the same weight as the M7 (or slightly lighter only) was meant to reduce the weight of the turrets and tanks able to carry them, possibly immediately fit in the 75 Sherman turret and reduce ammunition size (the barrel was longer than on the M7 to keep velocity the same with a smaller charge). This was particularly consistent with the US focus on super lightweight TDs.
However, in light of the late introduction of the 76 Sherman (dictated by very stringent requirements on ergonomics) and the Hellcat (without even considering to question the emphasis on low weight for TDs in the first place), this type of gun was completely out of place in the 1944-45 battlefield. It is also worth noting that the 75mm lightweight gun and associated light tank were also particularly late, resulting in many complaints about insufficient armament. The next light tank requirements immediately emphasized a 76mm gun of at least the same class as the M1A2 in 1946.
Now, the US was able to get away with this because of the low concentration of heavily armored German tanks in the Western Front directly facing them, logistical problems on the German side preventing said tanks from operating effectively and finally good combined arms tactics to take them out. That said, that does not mean that greater firepower wouldn't have been useful. Using technology to alleviate tactical or training limitations is always useful.

If one actually looks at US tank gun development programs and implementation prior to the 1943-45 (and really 44-45) explosion (with high velocity 90, 105 and 120mm guns), they do leave much to be desired. We only get the 75 M2, M3, lightweight 75mm (not used until the Chaffee), 76 M7, 76 M1 (not used until late 1943) and 90mm M3 (not used until 1944, yet available for testing since November 1942). Meanwhile the Sovs were testing at least two to four flavors of 85mm guns alone.

The 90mm definitely could have been developped from the AA gun sooner AND implemented on tanks sooner, as the M10 GMC could carry it without any more issues than the 76 M7. The technology used for the lightweight 76mm could have been used to either create a new gun or just redo the M7 (new longer lightweight barrel) for a muzzle velocity of 3000/3200 fps instead of 2600 for the M1A2. That is, more or less the class of the 17 pounder. The implementation wouldn't have been any later than the 76 M1 since both guns required a new turret for the Sherman and new hull/turret for the M18 Hellcat. They would just be scaled up appropriately. This option would have been a bit more practical than the 90mm due to the somewhat smaller rounds and still slightly lighter and more compact gun.​



Regarding the problem of the manufacturing capability for a new tank, of course one would have to look at exactly what tooling was used in the factories that left tank building in 1943-44, where that tooling went afterwards and what those companies were making afterwards. I still think there was spare capacity in that regard just like there was for the M26 Pershing (or really all the T2X series, these had to be built somewhere after all). Even then, a new tank would surely require some of the tooling to be replaced anyway. I should also point out that there was a serious backlog of Shermans in 1943-44 that were awaiting shipment, so even converting an existing operating line to build a new tank wouldn't necessarily delay deliveries of tanks outside of the US.

Regarding the question of weight, it's an interesting one because after all the US still was willing to develop the monstrous M6, the T14 Assault Tank and the 1945 heavy tanks (with some outright being earmarked for the invasion of Japan), so surely they were thinking the shipping logistics could be worked out, otherwise they wouldn't have made any of these tanks in the first place.

But even if one considered the 40 short ton limit of most dock cranes often mentioned by The_Chieftain, that still leaves a maximum metric weight of 36.287 tonnes. The M4A3E8 (76)W is among the heaviest Shermans and weighs 37.1 short tons (33.5 metric). That gives at least 2 extra short tonnes to play with, and that's before adressing the inefficiencies of the Sherman design.

Redesigns of the Sherman itself were considered but the choice fell on the more radical T2X series. It certainly made sense as these would be the most efficient option. However the rear placement of the transmission evidently led to cooling and reliability problems that weren't seen on the M4 (evidenced by the poor reliability of the T22 that used the same transmission as the Sherman). Much worse, highest priority was given to the prototype with the electric transmission, the T23. This transmission did perform a lot better and was not as hard to maintain as other similar transmissions in foreign countries, but it definitely was ill-advised to prioritize such a radical option in wartime over more conventionnal designs like the Torqmatic and Hydramatic tested in the M6 and eventually used in the M26. Moreso when the latter promising types needed some work to perform reliably.
The sheer inefficiency of the Sherman layout offered plenty of room for improvement even while keeping the front drive. A simple transfer case for the radial powered versions and nothing for the other engines would have allowed a major reduction in hull height (this was done on the M10/M36 GMC hull). Sloping the sponsons were a good option to improve protection there without an undue increase in weight. The Detroit Arsenal proposal for such a redesign allowed it to keep the same weight as the OG Sherman with sponsons sloped at 30° and a simpler hull front. Lengthening the hull a bit to increase the front slope while keeping large hatches should also have been more efficient and would work well with the changes induced by the lower hull. The fighting compartement generally makes an inefficient use of space.
The Australian Sentinel is a decent example of how well you can do with front drive (a simplified M4 transmission even) and a compact engine with an otherwise similar style as the T2X series. The version with a 70" turret ring to accomodate a 17pdr was expected to weigh about 32 metric tonnes with thicker side armor and a better front slope than the small hatch Shermans with the same plate thickness.

HVSS was tested in 1942 on both the Sherman and was seen in 1941 on the M6 Heavy, but the lack of wider tracks for the former and the poor performance of the tracks of the latter on medium tanks meant that it wasn't interesting to introduce them right away. Had there been more interest in developping dedicated wider tracks for a new medium tank derived from the Sherman in 1942, HVSS would have been deployed sooner.​
A 600HP+ class engine like the Guiberson T2800, Caterpillar D200A, Chrysler A65 or Ford GAC with adequately strengthened Torqmatic would be desirable and probably even feasible for 1944 but dubious earlier.

IMO even the austere proposal of a Sherman with front drive, HVSS, redesigned hull and ability to carry a 3000 fps 76mm gun without any serious increase in armor would still be appealing for late 1943 production and well within US capability. The front drive placement would avoid the development issues that plagued the T2X series and the HVSS can be made ready sooner than medium tank torsion bars. This is hardly more complicated than the entire Soviet development line from the KV-13 to the IS-2, or the T-43 which was far more likely to fail simply because the Soviets were playing with an even more overburdened hull.
The 76mm was better than the 17 pounder. It fit quite comfortably in a Sherman and was more accurate. The crew didn't tire out as quickly and was more likely to hit what they were aiming at at mid to long range. https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/us-firefly-17-pounder-vs-90mm-vs-76mm.285284/

Remember also everything from the US has to shipped 3,000 miles and by late 1944 at the latest the US government was fully aware the war was probably going to end soon. It was cancelling a lot of large weapons orders from late 1944 onward. Why spin up a lot of tank production that won't arrive until the war is over? That doesn't make much sense. Now the US should have continued weapons R&D after the war just in case, as the Korean War proved, but that is in hindsight.
 
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He didn't want to see the ad-hoc Rhinos that First Army was doing with sandbags or concrete, that added a lot of weight with little actual increase in protection
I dont think he would mind if they helped themselves to German tank carcases for their in-hoc armour though, unless they were still intact enough to be sent for testing.
 
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