Err, I think that was what I said. I was pointing out that the British wanted those three ships sunk or completely disabled with no operating guns before the 5th Battle Squadron passed them. That way they would not have to worry about point blank shots.
Jutland Redux - A summer soltice shootout
- Thread starter johnboy
- Start date
Did Evan Thomas manage to have any of the BCF screen with 5th battlesquadron.
If so a destroyer firing torpedoes could help those ships accelerate to the bottom.
I suppose that there's a chance that Beatty is rushing in the direction of this action seeking to gain the credit for part of his BCF sinking the German battlecruisers.
If 5th BS is delayed over much sinking the crippled German battlecruisers then Beatty's speed could be needed to overhaul the better German battlecruisers.
That said they could be allowed to escape to allow 5th BS and Betty's battlecruisers to join the forces running down the High Seas Fleet.
If so a destroyer firing torpedoes could help those ships accelerate to the bottom.
I suppose that there's a chance that Beatty is rushing in the direction of this action seeking to gain the credit for part of his BCF sinking the German battlecruisers.
If 5th BS is delayed over much sinking the crippled German battlecruisers then Beatty's speed could be needed to overhaul the better German battlecruisers.
That said they could be allowed to escape to allow 5th BS and Betty's battlecruisers to join the forces running down the High Seas Fleet.
I was thinking the very same thing
5th Battle Squadron had its own light force in direct support at Jutland OTL
HMS Fearless a CL of the Active class and command ship of the 1st Destroyer flotilla - armed with a pair of 18" torpedoes
And the Flotilla itself comprised of 9 x Acheron class Destroyers each armed with a pair of 21" torpedoes
The numbers involved in the Destroyer action which forced Beatty to turn away does not seem to include these ships. I was previously unsure if they got tied up with the rest of the screen.
Given that the 5th BS was the most valuable squadron in the fleet I suspect that they would have stuck with the QEs - but its upto the author if they have here (and any other screening forces of which there was a significant number)
1757 22 June 1916 - I'm giving her all I've got, Captain
1757, 22 June 1916, SMS Roon, North Sea
Kapitän zur See Wilhelm von Karpf had rung up full speed. He was willing to admit to himself that he had been unnerved by 15 inch shells weighing a ton dropping around his lightly armed armoured cruiser. Roon had missed her turn and had come under fire, finding herself at the rear of the High Seas Fleet main battle line, not a place he desired to be, especially with the order of advance reversed after the battle turn and the ships of Roon's, nominal command, IInd Squadron, now leading the High Seas Fleet at their best speed of 16.7 knots. Roon had surged ahead, making fully 20.1 knots as she clawed her way past SMS Konig and her Division, no longer maintaining line ahead as she raced to rejoin her Division mates in the van. Von Karpf had received no such instructions, but had not been told not to do so either and the idea of trailing at the rear of the formation was anathema to him. There was no going back. Hessen was gone, her funeral pyre still in his memory. Two ship's gone in a matter of minutes.
Deep in the engine room, stokers laboured to gain every last ounce of steam from the old ship. Von Karpf respected his stokers. They could save his ship; they could save his life for that matter. Contrary to popular opinion, it was a skilled occupation. Coal was fed by hand - a man with a shovel. This position was hot, incredibly dirty and completely physically exhausting. Yet, it was also a job demanding the highest skill. One could not just shovel coal into the furnace and expect the ship’s boilers to function efficiently. Boilers were complex devices, expensive and fragile. Roon was built for speed, with 16 complex water-tube boilers to make her 20-21 knot speed, fast for her time. This required a crew of over 600, many of them stokers. Stoking was an art of it's own, if done properly. In order to get the maximum speed and efficiency from a boiler, i.e. the most energy transfer from the coal to the water, a stoker needed to spread the coal evenly with the shovel across the gratings, at the same time pushing ash off into the pans so as to not reduce the temperature, keeping the heat up at a specific level, spread evenly across the water tubes that passed through the firebox, so as to generate steam. Too hot in one spot and you could break a tube. There were hundreds of these in a large ships’ boilers. Each leaking tube slowed down the ship, costing time, expertise and money to replace.
Kapitän zur See Wilhelm von Karpf had rung up full speed. He was willing to admit to himself that he had been unnerved by 15 inch shells weighing a ton dropping around his lightly armed armoured cruiser. Roon had missed her turn and had come under fire, finding herself at the rear of the High Seas Fleet main battle line, not a place he desired to be, especially with the order of advance reversed after the battle turn and the ships of Roon's, nominal command, IInd Squadron, now leading the High Seas Fleet at their best speed of 16.7 knots. Roon had surged ahead, making fully 20.1 knots as she clawed her way past SMS Konig and her Division, no longer maintaining line ahead as she raced to rejoin her Division mates in the van. Von Karpf had received no such instructions, but had not been told not to do so either and the idea of trailing at the rear of the formation was anathema to him. There was no going back. Hessen was gone, her funeral pyre still in his memory. Two ship's gone in a matter of minutes.
Deep in the engine room, stokers laboured to gain every last ounce of steam from the old ship. Von Karpf respected his stokers. They could save his ship; they could save his life for that matter. Contrary to popular opinion, it was a skilled occupation. Coal was fed by hand - a man with a shovel. This position was hot, incredibly dirty and completely physically exhausting. Yet, it was also a job demanding the highest skill. One could not just shovel coal into the furnace and expect the ship’s boilers to function efficiently. Boilers were complex devices, expensive and fragile. Roon was built for speed, with 16 complex water-tube boilers to make her 20-21 knot speed, fast for her time. This required a crew of over 600, many of them stokers. Stoking was an art of it's own, if done properly. In order to get the maximum speed and efficiency from a boiler, i.e. the most energy transfer from the coal to the water, a stoker needed to spread the coal evenly with the shovel across the gratings, at the same time pushing ash off into the pans so as to not reduce the temperature, keeping the heat up at a specific level, spread evenly across the water tubes that passed through the firebox, so as to generate steam. Too hot in one spot and you could break a tube. There were hundreds of these in a large ships’ boilers. Each leaking tube slowed down the ship, costing time, expertise and money to replace.
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1759 22 June 1916 - Do I have my pigeons? - Check
1759, 22 June 1916, HMS Riviera, North Sea
Lieutenant Frederick Rutland started the engine of the Short 184, the seaplane still bobbing calmly in the lee of her mother-ship, HMS Riviera, on what was, in any case, a remarkably calm day for the North Sea. This would be his second flight of the day, the two seaplane carriers now well out of the way of the previously advancing High Seas Fleet. He operated the hand winch from the cockpit, opening up the wings gradually, waiting for them to be locked by means of a threaded spigot in the forward spar, each wing occupied by a fitter from Riviera, the man holding onto the wing spar with one hand and a working with the other. It was to take 12 minutes before the man closest to Riviera passed over the basket he knew contained two carrier pigeons, backup in case the wireless failed, a common enough experience. In that case, he could release with birds with a message, who would then home to the designated pigeon loft near Riviera's mast.
It was not until 1822 that the small seaplane was able to take to the air, her task to view the course, speed and numbers of Scheer's retreating force.
Lieutenant Frederick Rutland started the engine of the Short 184, the seaplane still bobbing calmly in the lee of her mother-ship, HMS Riviera, on what was, in any case, a remarkably calm day for the North Sea. This would be his second flight of the day, the two seaplane carriers now well out of the way of the previously advancing High Seas Fleet. He operated the hand winch from the cockpit, opening up the wings gradually, waiting for them to be locked by means of a threaded spigot in the forward spar, each wing occupied by a fitter from Riviera, the man holding onto the wing spar with one hand and a working with the other. It was to take 12 minutes before the man closest to Riviera passed over the basket he knew contained two carrier pigeons, backup in case the wireless failed, a common enough experience. In that case, he could release with birds with a message, who would then home to the designated pigeon loft near Riviera's mast.
It was not until 1822 that the small seaplane was able to take to the air, her task to view the course, speed and numbers of Scheer's retreating force.
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Wait, they are homing to a moving nest? Is that even possible? I was under the impression that the nest had to be in a static location for a homing pigeon to find it?
It's line of sight. A trained pidgeon can fly short range to a moving nest.
The sea plane is a few hundred metres away from the carrier at most.
Homing to a nest isn't needed.
This is correct, but believe it or not pigeons can be trained to home to a boat by gradually moving it 500 meter or so each time.
Can homing pigeons actually home on a mobile loft? I can imagine that by some kind of biosensory magic, a pigeon could know where it is relative to the position of its loft when the pigeon was last there. But how would the bird know where the loft is after it is moved? Which would be the case unless Riviera remains completely stationary. To be sure, Lieutenant Rutland could have the same problem. (RAdm Dan Gallery wrote of occasions in the early days of USN carrier operations when IIRC Saratoga would steam away from the launch position without bothering to inform the flight.) However, Rutland could climb to say 1,000 meters and look around, so if Riviera had moved 20 km, she'd be in sight. But what could a pigeon do?
Asian Jumbo
Monthly Donor
Maybe the mother ship has a very large figure-head? (It ought to look enough like a statue to attract pigeons…?)
1804 22 June 1916 - Jellicoe starts the chase and aims to reengage
1804 22 June 1916, HMS Iron Duke, North Sea
Jellicoe watched, happy with the maneuver, as the Grand Fleet settled onto course 120, as he hoped to close and cut across the wake of the High Seas Fleet. At the same time, the main line had upped it's speed to 21 knots. His hope was to use his superior speed to place his force to the South and East of the German ships, effectively cutting their access to the Jade.
Firing had died away, as he had instructed all Divisions to halt fire. Hipper's battle-cruisers were no longer of any interest to him. In detaching 5th Battle Squadron to assist Beatty, he had effectively left their fate in his colleagues hands. His own show would be the main German line. In an ideal world, he would close to 10,000 to 12,000 yards. This would be the range that his own ship's shells would function best at. He was aware of the deficiency of RN shells, in terms of their tendency to break up on impact. This was much more pronounced when firing at higher elevations. At closer range and therefore lower elevation, the shells were more reliable. Of course, the danger at closer ranges was the German light forces, no matter the potency of his own screen. He had to be careful, for there was every potential to lose the war if he was not. Gaining a crushing victory would be a magnificent fillip for his own command and indeed the country as a whole, but it would not win the war, only insure and continuation of the current crippling blockade on Germany. Suffering a crushing defeat could lead to an inability to continue the blockade, or worse still, a surface blockade of the home islands. That was an outcome that did not bear thinking about.
Jellicoe watched, happy with the maneuver, as the Grand Fleet settled onto course 120, as he hoped to close and cut across the wake of the High Seas Fleet. At the same time, the main line had upped it's speed to 21 knots. His hope was to use his superior speed to place his force to the South and East of the German ships, effectively cutting their access to the Jade.
Firing had died away, as he had instructed all Divisions to halt fire. Hipper's battle-cruisers were no longer of any interest to him. In detaching 5th Battle Squadron to assist Beatty, he had effectively left their fate in his colleagues hands. His own show would be the main German line. In an ideal world, he would close to 10,000 to 12,000 yards. This would be the range that his own ship's shells would function best at. He was aware of the deficiency of RN shells, in terms of their tendency to break up on impact. This was much more pronounced when firing at higher elevations. At closer range and therefore lower elevation, the shells were more reliable. Of course, the danger at closer ranges was the German light forces, no matter the potency of his own screen. He had to be careful, for there was every potential to lose the war if he was not. Gaining a crushing victory would be a magnificent fillip for his own command and indeed the country as a whole, but it would not win the war, only insure and continuation of the current crippling blockade on Germany. Suffering a crushing defeat could lead to an inability to continue the blockade, or worse still, a surface blockade of the home islands. That was an outcome that did not bear thinking about.
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1806 22 June 1916 - Beatty closes the range
1806 22 June 1916, HMS Lion, North Sea
This was the sort of engagement that was much more to Beatty's liking. Still the Germans came on, Evan-Thomas engaged by only one turret from Seydlitz, Beatty by two more from the Derfflinger Class battle-cruiser at the rear of the formation. Hits were being obtained regularly now that the range continued to fall. Beatty's battle-cruisers had been driven to the East by the German light forces, now, they were charging back at the line of three German big ships, all of whom were clearly lamed. For all that, he was frustrated that his ships, now at only 12,000 yards, were gaining less hits than Evan-Thomas, albeit at a longer range.
HMS Lion leads Tiger, Queen Mary and other battle-cruisers
This was the sort of engagement that was much more to Beatty's liking. Still the Germans came on, Evan-Thomas engaged by only one turret from Seydlitz, Beatty by two more from the Derfflinger Class battle-cruiser at the rear of the formation. Hits were being obtained regularly now that the range continued to fall. Beatty's battle-cruisers had been driven to the East by the German light forces, now, they were charging back at the line of three German big ships, all of whom were clearly lamed. For all that, he was frustrated that his ships, now at only 12,000 yards, were gaining less hits than Evan-Thomas, albeit at a longer range.
HMS Lion leads Tiger, Queen Mary and other battle-cruisers
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Its not just ships that move, here is a WW1 mobile pigeon loft built from a double decker bus by the British Army.