Henry VII and Henry VIII dead in 1509
- Thread starter VVD0D95
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James VI will be King Regnant or there will be war. This is the era of the divine right of Kings. He's already a King Regnant, he won't settle for second place to a much-younger wife in England. And no noble in England will expect otherwise. This isn't the situation with "Bloody" Mary, where the marital contract limited Philip's rights to rule, this is an already in place marriage with children (although I believe only the one remained in 1509). Men were superior in the minds of men at that time, remember. Women were the source of sin via Eve. Will the English be civil for a 'foreign' King over them (albeit one wed to the sister of the last King and daughter to the one before) or will they want to do as they insisted for Henry VIII's OTL daughter Mary and wed Mary to someone whose actions can be restricted by the marital contract - because James' and Margaret's does not restrict him should she become Queen (it was thought so unlikely as to not be considered)?
What the English nobility has to decide is: do they want the Scottish King and his English Queen, or do they want to crown and wed Mary (probably in the other order) to someone of their choosing (or to Charles - Mary's betrothed, who might decide it's worth the troops)?
Most King Consorts are able to rule directly on behalf of their wives,so it makes very little difference,except if his wife predeceased him.
And this is where it hits the fan. The high mortality rate among women (often from childbirth). The English nobility are going to be thinking that, because Margaret is going to want him crowned alongside her. (Remember Margaret, the daughter of Henry VII who set the pattern for the Mary, Queen of Scots: marry in haste, repent at leisure?) Margaret was said to be in love with James, she'll do what he want and have him (a King already) crowned with her. This is what I'm talking about when I say James IV won't take a backseat to the wife. He will be crowned with her. Anything else would be an insult to his manhood and position in life.
If Margaret Beaufort lives a little longer, I could totally see her hiding Henry VIII's death for a while and maneuvering to crown Margaret/James. She'll have remembered WoR and wouldn't want to risk another war by crowning Mary
You are exagerating. Philip of Spain, son of the Holy Roman Emperor accepted to be only King Consort in England (and was unlikely he would have children with his wife) and Ferdinand of Aragon also was only King Consort in Castile so why James would not accept to be only a King Consort? Only difference between the two thing is who as King Consort he will stop to be King if he live longer than his wife and considering he has no claim of his own to England and is much older than Margaret can not see why he need to make himself a lot of enemies asking something unacceptable for England. And about a joint coronation is possible but as is possible also a coronation only for Maragret as James was already crowned as King in Scotland
Plus being King Consort means he's also likely to be the Queen's lieutenant and thus in charge in her absence.
Was James really so vainglorious to want the full title too? One several nobles will claim he has no right to.
He will rule in her name, that is sure... Nobody will trust young Margaret when James is avalaible and ready to rule England but he can do it only in her name. Henry Tudor wanted to be a full King and having already a tenuous claim by blood and a stronger by conquest he married Elizabeth of York (as he had promised to do and for reinforce his claim on England) only after being crowned for making clear to everyone who he was not ruling in name of his wife
In this context ""the English nobility" means whichever particular nobleman has possession of Mary's person.
This, of course, depends on where she is at the time of Henry's death. Iirc Henry was fond of Mary and liked having here around, so she is probably wherever he is. Certainty is impossible butt he likeliest place would seem to be Richmond, where he and Catherine had their first child in Jan 1511. Greenwich, where they married in 1509, is also possible.
Either way she's in sniffing distance of London, so Oxford has a fair chance of collaring her before anyone else does, whether to proclaim her Queen or just for "safe keeping" until her elder sister arrives. As a loyal Lancastrian he will probably defer to Margaret Beaufort if she's still alive.
He sort of did- it was very vague and several generations removed, but the point could have been argued that his descent from Alexander III and Margaret of England made his claim more valid than the illegitimate line of the Tudors.
In OTL Margaret Beaufort exerted influence in the days after Henry VII's death - she was his chief executor and until her own death two months later was organising her grandson's coronation - if both are dead she will almost certainly move to ensure the succession fo her granddaughter Margaret.
James IV - is just like Philip of Spain want and expect to have rule over his wife - however I suspect the English will react in pretty much the same way - a series of restrictions on his ability to dominate the realm - in the 1550s they imposed those despite the desire of their sovereign to allow her husband a full role.
The key people are going to want a straight forward and immediate settlement - Margaret is their best option quite frankly - she is married to a fellow sovereign - she offers permanent peace with Scotland (any other choice means permanent war with Scotland).
The alternatives aren't going to attract a lot of support - Anne Lady Howard is childless, Catherine of York has issue but was in high favour with her sister's family and is likely to support Margaret (Henry VIII pardoned her husband shortly before his death and gave Catherine control of his lands on his death - she went on to become godmother to Princess Mary).
Margaret Pole (Clarence's daughter) - is not getting the Earldom of Salisbury because Henry VIII is dead - she was high in favour with Margaret Beaufort and is unlikely to try and claim the throne
Stafford isn't yet on the council and whilst he is wealthy he doesn't quite have the influence at this stage to mount a coup.
Mary Tudor had her own household with attendent staff but she is just 13 so - unless some noble grabs her (which is unlikely as I suspect she will be grafted to her grandmother's household on her father and brother's death) to try and mount a coup to take the throne in her name I think she's a non starter at this point.
Margaret is proclaimed Queen and begins a progress south - she is only going to be around two months pregnant at her father's death in April at most (Arthur Stuart was born in October).
Parliament is summoned in her name - they confirm her title and right to the throne etc - and attempt to impose restrictions on her husband - he is to be titled King of England etc - they ban him from appointing Scots to English royal posts etc - and so on - the succession guaranteed to Margaret's issue but in the event of her death without issue the throne to pass to her lawful heirs not to James etc.
And in this scenario Arthur born in October I suspect is named Henry in honour of Margaret's dead father and brother rather than Arthur perhaps.
James IV - is just like Philip of Spain want and expect to have rule over his wife - however I suspect the English will react in pretty much the same way - a series of restrictions on his ability to dominate the realm - in the 1550s they imposed those despite the desire of their sovereign to allow her husband a full role.
The key people are going to want a straight forward and immediate settlement - Margaret is their best option quite frankly - she is married to a fellow sovereign - she offers permanent peace with Scotland (any other choice means permanent war with Scotland).
The alternatives aren't going to attract a lot of support - Anne Lady Howard is childless, Catherine of York has issue but was in high favour with her sister's family and is likely to support Margaret (Henry VIII pardoned her husband shortly before his death and gave Catherine control of his lands on his death - she went on to become godmother to Princess Mary).
Margaret Pole (Clarence's daughter) - is not getting the Earldom of Salisbury because Henry VIII is dead - she was high in favour with Margaret Beaufort and is unlikely to try and claim the throne
Stafford isn't yet on the council and whilst he is wealthy he doesn't quite have the influence at this stage to mount a coup.
Mary Tudor had her own household with attendent staff but she is just 13 so - unless some noble grabs her (which is unlikely as I suspect she will be grafted to her grandmother's household on her father and brother's death) to try and mount a coup to take the throne in her name I think she's a non starter at this point.
Margaret is proclaimed Queen and begins a progress south - she is only going to be around two months pregnant at her father's death in April at most (Arthur Stuart was born in October).
Parliament is summoned in her name - they confirm her title and right to the throne etc - and attempt to impose restrictions on her husband - he is to be titled King of England etc - they ban him from appointing Scots to English royal posts etc - and so on - the succession guaranteed to Margaret's issue but in the event of her death without issue the throne to pass to her lawful heirs not to James etc.
And in this scenario Arthur born in October I suspect is named Henry in honour of Margaret's dead father and brother rather than Arthur perhaps.
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Something I overlooked. Control of the Tower means that Oxford is also in possession of the Royal Mint. Better and better.
So in summary it is certainly looking like Margaret is acceding over Mary. James's position will be circumscribed and, joint coronation or not, most likely labelled as King Consort by Parliament (even if that labelling is of the form "King of England by being Consort to Margaret Queen of England" or "King to (Margaret Queen of) England".
What's interesting is that with Margaret as Queen of England her surviving son (if it's James V here as OTL) will be born Prince of Wales and Duke of Rothesay. He's likely to inherit both England and Scotland upon his parents deaths. Here James IV might live longer given that there won't be a war between the English and Scots. Margaret's not likely to have two surviving sons to split the crowns. So we'll see an earlier Stuart/Stewart succession.
We might also see English foreign policy change to reflect the Stuarts interests. Margaret's son will likely be betrothed to a French princess due to the Stuart's traditional ally/marital interest being France. James being heir to both England and Scotland will make him a much more attractive match. Though the French are a little short on royal princesses of an age with him given that several of Francis' daughters were sickly and died young. So they might not have much to offer. Could Madeleine de Valois survive the English climate? Or might we see a Spanish princess being offered as James' bride inlieu of Catherine of Aragon?
Though who will marry Mary at this time? Charles Brandon might not be close to Queen Margaret and thus might not have a chance to woo Mary. Mary's second (or third) in line to the English throne so it's entirely likely that we won't see her being offered to King Louis. Isabella of Portugal is a smart choice for Charles V to marry given that it'll endear him to the Spanish more. But Mary Tudor's extremely close in the line of succession to the English throne. It'll make that particular match a very tempting offer for the Emperor. Likewise, the English might not be keen on that match for the same reason.
Actually. Speaking of Catherine. What happens to Catherine of Aragon in this timeline? She's lost Arthur Tudor. Prince Henry is dead and no longer an option. Will the English return her dowry and send her home to Spain or will Catherine decide to stay as Dowager Princess of Wales and marry an English nobleman of royal blood? Or are we likely to see her being married off elsewhere by her father?
We might also see English foreign policy change to reflect the Stuarts interests. Margaret's son will likely be betrothed to a French princess due to the Stuart's traditional ally/marital interest being France. James being heir to both England and Scotland will make him a much more attractive match. Though the French are a little short on royal princesses of an age with him given that several of Francis' daughters were sickly and died young. So they might not have much to offer. Could Madeleine de Valois survive the English climate? Or might we see a Spanish princess being offered as James' bride inlieu of Catherine of Aragon?
Though who will marry Mary at this time? Charles Brandon might not be close to Queen Margaret and thus might not have a chance to woo Mary. Mary's second (or third) in line to the English throne so it's entirely likely that we won't see her being offered to King Louis. Isabella of Portugal is a smart choice for Charles V to marry given that it'll endear him to the Spanish more. But Mary Tudor's extremely close in the line of succession to the English throne. It'll make that particular match a very tempting offer for the Emperor. Likewise, the English might not be keen on that match for the same reason.
Actually. Speaking of Catherine. What happens to Catherine of Aragon in this timeline? She's lost Arthur Tudor. Prince Henry is dead and no longer an option. Will the English return her dowry and send her home to Spain or will Catherine decide to stay as Dowager Princess of Wales and marry an English nobleman of royal blood? Or are we likely to see her being married off elsewhere by her father?
Well Henry VII’s own claim to England was not great but Elizabeth of York had the best one available and her children are heirs of the claims of both Elizabeth and Henry so Margaret Tudor has the best claim available as granddaughter of Edward IV
On second thought. I don't think the Spanish have anyone that they can offer at the moment. Catherine of Austria is the closest in age to James but she might still marry into Portugal. Infanta Maria of Portugal was born in 1521 and might be more suitable for a second marriage given that she's 9 years younger than James. But I don't think they really have anyone to offer right now.
If Catherine of Aragon remarries and has healthy children then they might be eligible to marry Margaret's surviving son. But James first and second option will likely be French.
If Catherine of Aragon remarries and has healthy children then they might be eligible to marry Margaret's surviving son. But James first and second option will likely be French.
Arthur Stewart will be born in England, likely his ATL name will be Henry James and maybe he will survive because butterflies...
Margaret OTL had two other living sons after him, James and Alexander (with the last being born after James IV’s OTL death) and as James will not die like OTL but live much longer he and Margaret will have surely other children but James and Margaret’s eldest surviving son will be both the Duke of Rothesay and the Prince of Wales and will be King of both England and Scotland so we will have an earlier union of the crowns...
(Possible names for James and Margaret’s sons are James, Henry, Edward, Alexander, Robert, Arthur, David maybe also George, John or Richard for younger children while girls will likely called Margaret and Elizabeth).
Catherine of Aragon will be sent back in Spain and will be remarried at her father’s will (and seeing her as third wife of Louis XII is not impossible) while Mary Tudor will be married abroad (Louis XII of France is still possible as the future Charles V but for me the most likely match is Manuel I of Portugal as his third wife)
Here Eleanor of Austria-Spain will likely be married to her cousin John of Portugal and not to his father (who will marry either Mary Tudor of Catherine of Aragon if she had not already married) so Catherine will be free for marry Arthur/Henry Stewart.
The first option for James and Margaret heir will be Catherine of Austria, the second one a princess of Portugal and a French match will be only the third one on the list
Interestingly this completely changes the political landscape in the early 1510s - England was in alliance with Catherine's father during Henry VIII's early reign and joined the Franco Spanish fight to expand his holdings in Northern France - leading to the Scots invasion James IV's death and ultimately a separate peace with France.
In this scenario England stays out of the fight or joins in support of France. So in the short term - Mary's betrothal to Charles V is out the window quite quickly - and its not unlikely James and Margaret decide to marry her to the widowed Louis at some point assuming Anne of Brittany dies on schedule. Francis I's elder daughters are likely targets for the Prince of Wales (though both died young).
Lets assume Arthur lives and Margaret's pregnancies follow the usual pattern - though her marriage is now going to endure more separation as James will have to spend time in Scotland in this scenario which might space the births out a bit. The nearest brides in age for a Prince of Wales born in 1509 might be Catherine youngest sister of Charles V born in 1507 or Renee of France youngest daughter of Anne of Brittany born in 1510. (I would anticipate a betrothal at the time of Mary Tudor's marriage to Louis or instead of that marriage)
Henry Stewart Prince of Wales, Duke of Rothesay 20 October 1509
James Stewart Duke of York and Ross 10 April 1512
Arthur Stewart Duke of Clarence and Kintyre 30 April 1514
Elizabeth Stewart b June 5 1516
Margaret Stewart b August 10 1518
In this scenario England stays out of the fight or joins in support of France. So in the short term - Mary's betrothal to Charles V is out the window quite quickly - and its not unlikely James and Margaret decide to marry her to the widowed Louis at some point assuming Anne of Brittany dies on schedule. Francis I's elder daughters are likely targets for the Prince of Wales (though both died young).
Lets assume Arthur lives and Margaret's pregnancies follow the usual pattern - though her marriage is now going to endure more separation as James will have to spend time in Scotland in this scenario which might space the births out a bit. The nearest brides in age for a Prince of Wales born in 1509 might be Catherine youngest sister of Charles V born in 1507 or Renee of France youngest daughter of Anne of Brittany born in 1510. (I would anticipate a betrothal at the time of Mary Tudor's marriage to Louis or instead of that marriage)
Henry Stewart Prince of Wales, Duke of Rothesay 20 October 1509
James Stewart Duke of York and Ross 10 April 1512
Arthur Stewart Duke of Clarence and Kintyre 30 April 1514
Elizabeth Stewart b June 5 1516
Margaret Stewart b August 10 1518
VVD0D95
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That looks pretty decent, would the Prince of Wales be named Henry in honour of the two Henrys who had died before?
I think it might be likely and expected - it might satisfy the English court at the same time its not going to be as offensive to the Scots as say Edward might be. think James and Arthur are likely for other sons for obvious reasons (I think five surviving kids is a stretch and one or more might die in infancy but lets assume better climate for the kids etc helps their survival)