Henry VII and Henry VIII dead in 1509

VVD0D95

Banned
So, this is something I've been pondering a fair bit. In 1503, Margaret Tudor married James IV of Scotland, a year after her brother Prince Arthur died. Now, let's say in 1509, perhaps two weeks after Henry VII dies, Henry VIII falls ill and dies himself., what happens next? Is Margaret now Queen of England? Does someone try and make a play for Mary Tudor, do the Yorkists if they remain support de la Pole? Does Stafford try something?
 

wwbgdiaslt

Gone Fishin'
It's Margaret by default really isn't it?

But in 1509, she would be pregnant for the majority of the year and in isolation, giving birth to Arthur Stewart in October. He dies in July 1510, and she doesn't become pregnant for another year at the least.

Meaning the pressure is on Mary to find an appropriate match, and she's not a healthy child herself. Perhaps like you said, link her up to Henry Pole, son of Margaret to help stave off a potential Pole Rebellion - but the pair are, at best, 17 and 13 when Margaret becomes Queen which would still leave the door open for potential contenders.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
wwbgdiaslt said:
It's Margaret by default really isn't it?

But in 1509, she would be pregnant for the majority of the year and in isolation, giving birth to Arthur Stewart in October. He dies in July 1510, and she doesn't become pregnant for another year at the least.

Meaning the pressure is on Mary to find an appropriate match, and she's not a healthy child herself. Perhaps like you said, link her up to Henry Pole, son of Margaret to help stave off a potential Pole Rebellion - but the pair are, at best, 17 and 13 when Margaret becomes Queen which would still leave the door open for potential contenders.
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Could Mary be married to Edmund de La Pole, or if he exists the son of Howard and Anne of York?
 

wwbgdiaslt

Gone Fishin'
Edmund is over 20 years older than Mary and married by the time she's even born so I don't see that match as viable.

I could see a Howard maneuvere but none of Howard's children are even born in 1509 because Anne didn't produce issue.

You could probably make a case for a match with Henry Courtenay, son of Catherine of York as that at least is age appropriate and keeps the Yorkist link in play.

Or possibly Thomas Manners, son of Anne St Leger, who was daughter of Anne of York, sister of Edward IV and Richard III.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
wwbgdiaslt said:
Edmund is over 20 years older than Mary and married by the time she's even born so I don't see that match as viable.

I could see a Howard maneuvere but none of Howard's children are even born in 1509 because Anne didn't produce issue.

You could probably make a case for a match with Henry Courtenay, son of Catherine of York as that at least is age appropriate and keeps the Yorkist link in play.

Or possibly Thomas Manners, son of Anne St Leger, who was daughter of Anne of York, sister of Edward IV and Richard III.
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Wasn't there a rumoured son for Howard and Anne that died around 1509?

And Courtenay seems likely, I can see things moving into warzone territory.
 

desmirelle

Margaret and James may claim the throne, but will the English nobility accept a foreign King at this time? Scotland is considered to be very pro-French and most of the English are not.
 
The Professor

The Professor

Those who don't mind a woman will push for Margaret as Queen Regnant with James as Consort or opt for Mary depending who she marries.
Those who do mind will want whoever has a husband least proFrench, or rather most proEnglish.
Now's a good time for anyone with a more English claim to put themselves forward.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
desmirelle said:
Margaret and James may claim the throne, but will the English nobility accept a foreign King at this time? Scotland is considered to be very pro-French and most of the English are not.
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This is very true, and of course the fear of another War of the Roses would be looming large in people's minds.

The Professor said:
Those who don't mind a woman will push for Margaret as Queen Regnant with James as Consort or opt for Mary depending who she marries.
Those who do mind will want whoever has a husband least proFrench, or rather most proEnglish.
Now's a good time for anyone with a more English claim to put themselves forward.
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Agreed, so a marriage rush potentially?
 

VVD0D95

Banned
So, in this scenario, would it be considered reasonable for someone at court to go north, to meet with James and Margaret, whilst another faction tries to arrange Mary's marriage?
 

desmirelle

James is already a King, he's not going to settle for "Consort" in a second country when he commands an army (and has potential for French back-up). I'm just wondering if the English are going to go "Yeah, okay" to what amounts to a Foreign Ruler becoming King of their country. Given the English attitude towards women (in general and as rulers), the males of the English nobility are going to automatically presume James will be running things.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
desmirelle said:
James is already a King, he's not going to settle for "Consort" in a second country when he commands an army (and has potential for French back-up). I'm just wondering if the English are going to go "Yeah, okay" to what amounts to a Foreign Ruler becoming King of their country. Given the English attitude towards women (in general and as rulers), the males of the English nobility are going to automatically presume James will be running things.
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This is very true, I can see some of the northern lords balking at that, given old grudges, whilst some in the midlands might actually appreciate it.
 

wwbgdiaslt

Gone Fishin'
What would Henry VIII have dictated? Could he have indicated his wishes before he died, should the death not have been sudden (a la Edward VI) and how much weight would the wishes of a King of a handful of months have, so ...

Did Henry VII have any sort of preference for succession should his sons die before him? Was there already a default plan other than male primogeniture?
 

VVD0D95

Banned
wwbgdiaslt said:
What would Henry VIII have dictated? Could he have indicated his wishes before he died, should the death not have been sudden (a la Edward VI) and how much weight would the wishes of a King of a handful of months have, so ...

Did Henry VII have any sort of preference for succession should his sons die before him? Was there already a default plan other than male primogeniture?
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From what I know, Henry VII never thought he'd ever lose both his sons, so I think he'd not have had a game plan. Henry VIII's death would be relatively sudden.
 
The Professor

The Professor

desmirelle said:
James is already a King, he's not going to settle for "Consort" in a second country when he commands an army (and has potential for French back-up). I'm just wondering if the English are going to go "Yeah, okay" to what amounts to a Foreign Ruler becoming King of their country. Given the English attitude towards women (in general and as rulers), the males of the English nobility are going to automatically presume James will be running things.
Click to expand...
As I said those who don't mind a woman will push for Margaret as Queen Regnant with James as Consort else they will opt for Mary depending on who she marries.
Those who do mind will want whoever has a husband least proFrench, or rather most proEnglish. So is Mary's husband less French supporting than James? What support does he have?

Considering this now is a good time for any man with a more English claim to put themselves forward.

As others have said most will want to avoid another round of warfare.
 

Titania's Rose

Whoever secures Mary will make the push for the throne. Margaret and James will likely have to act quickly if they want to take the English throne. This could very easily turn ugly. But there are likely to be lords heading north to Scotland the moment word spreads of King Henry and Prince Henry's deaths to recognize Margaret as Queen, others heading to the residence of whoever's got Mary, and more sitting on the sidelines just watching. Some might move prematurely but most of the last group will probably wait to see whose side is strongest/is offering the most incentives to join them.

Who's currently in charge of England at this time? Actually who has London at the moment and will they push for Mary or Margaret and James?
 

Mikestone8

John de Vere, Earl of Oxford, is Constable of the Tower, which iirc means he has the country's reserves of gunpowder under his control. Any way to guess whom he would favour?
 
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