Thought of a possibility that might seem a bit unlikely at first glance; the Orkney Islands. Yes, they're isolated and cold and don't meet most of the other criteria that the OTL cradles of civilization did but it is a fact that five thousand or so years ago the climate was warmer and that there was quite a lot going on in that part of the world, including what could be considered a small scale proto-civilization at Skara Brae and the Ness of Brodgar (the two sites neighbour each other and were in use during the same time period) along with other sites in the area. The problem is that in OTL they didn't really have enough time to develop further than they did before a changing climate forced the inhabitants to relocate. But if things had gone a little differently; if they'd started developing a little earlier, if they'd had crops better suited to the climate than the standard Neolithic Western crop package, if whatever caused the climate to change had held off for a few more centuries (I'm aware that the last one verges on being ASB) then they might've had the time they would have needed to cross the line into being a full-blown civilization and possibly for it to have spread far enough to persist even if the sites where everything began had to eventually be abandoned.
Alternate Cradles of Civilisation
- Thread starter King_Arthur
- Start date
Eh the St. Lawrence had loads of rapids. They could be portaged around quite easily, but the river itself needed hundreds of years worth of improvements to become the transit artery it is today.
No natural defences? The Laurentides and Appalachians are pretty good. Further there's all the islands in the river, as well as a number of other defensive features which would be strong positions for early city states.
Also, "no horses" seems a bit redundant when discussing places in the Americas.
Add "battered by Hurricanes and generally just a very unpleasant swamp" to the list of cons.
No love for the upper Danube and its Alpine armour?
I'm pretty sure that's meant to be "Upper Nile" given that the Lower Nile is just Egypt. In which case, no. It's not navigable, nor does it have easy access to anything.
The natives of the Mississippi Delta (the actual Delta, not the one in Mississippi) are poorly known from historical descriptions and archaeology, but they appear to have thrived despite the climate. I usually see it lumped into the "Gulf" cultural area, separate from the Southeastern cultural area which it has similarities to. All the so-called "Gulf" cultures are fairly obscure and little is known about them which to me makes them fascinating since they may have had a lot of potential in an ATL given their geographic position in-between the Mississippian heartland in the region between modern Memphis and St. Louis and the Atlantic coast of Mesoamerica, where groups such as the Huastecs are attested as having traded with the otherwise "primitive" natives of South Texas (they wanted local shells found in Texas).
But you are right that any cultural model that works in the area of modern New Orleans or Baton Rouge would work just as well a good ways upstream, and just like the Sumerians they'd find themselves assimilated by more northerly populations. Or perhaps the other way around given innovations from Mesoamerica like maize agriculture (or more immediately valuable, expensive goods) would arrive there first.
Having a chinese wheelbarrow would really help the size and development of societies without strong pack animals like Native americans and africans south of the sahara.
WI : Ancient Romans used "wooden-ox" type wheelbarrow?
I once read a timeline about Roman bicycles on this forum and realised that Romans hadn’t wheelbarrows. The wooden ox (木牛流馬; lit. wooden ox and flowing horse) was a single-wheeled cart with two handles (i.e., a wheelbarrow) whose invention within China is sometimes credited to Zhuge Liang while...
www.alternatehistory.com
how about african rice being domesticated earlier? It could give more time for populations to get more densely populated and develope and could spread to chad and even further with the Bantu expansion. someone made a timeline about that
African rice domesticated in fourth millennium BC
The Inner Niger Delta, the one in Mali, is where African rice was domesticated - the best guess for OTL is sometime in the mid-late first millennium BC. Let's push it back three or four thousand years, possibly with the 5.9-kiloyear event as impetus. Early trial-and-error experiments with...
www.alternatehistory.com
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Found a reddit post discussing them. It appears flooding and the changing courses of rivers did affect the mississipi cultures and disrupted their development. The chinese civilization started off on a less erratic and more stable part of the river before spreading out to other parts of it
America's Achilles' heel: the Mississippi River's Old River Control Structure | Category 6™
America has an Achilles' heel. It lies on a quiet, unpopulated stretch of the Mississippi River in Louisiana, a few miles east of the tiny town of Simmesport. Rising up from the flat, wooded west flood plain of the Mississippi River tower four massive concrete and steel structures that would...
www.wunderground.com
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Why would it fall to Bantus? Like you said yourself its fertile and so with the right crops like bananas it could support a dense population and so Bantus wouldnt take it over. Bantus only absorbed peoples that were less densely populated than them
Huh. Interesting.Found a reddit post discussing them. It appears flooding and the changing courses of rivers did affect the mississipi cultures and disruspted their development.
America's Achilles' heel: the Mississippi River's Old River Control Structure | Category 6™
America has an Achilles' heel. It lies on a quiet, unpopulated stretch of the Mississippi River in Louisiana, a few miles east of the tiny town of Simmesport. Rising up from the flat, wooded west flood plain of the Mississippi River tower four massive concrete and steel structures that would...
Another possibility I've stumbled across; the Moravia basin in what is now the Czech Republic. Apparently people settled down there pretty early on compared to elsewhere in Europe and artefacts have been found that suggests that they may have been a bit ahead of the average (e.g. the oldest ceramic items in the world were found there). From what I've read it seems to have been a good spot to live in. From Wikipedia:
We should also look at alternate domesticates too. Like for africa the Giant eland seems like a very good domesticate rivaling the cow. They can survive droughts more easily than cows since they need less water and they are mainly browsers so overgrazing and desertification can be avoided. They can eat coarser pasturage than cows and even thrive on plants that are poisonous to cows. They produce more meat from bad pasture and its of good quality. They can run at up to 70 km/h (43 mph) so could be useful as mounted cavalry.
www.altinawildlife.com
- Eland milk is antibacterial and has almost 3 times the fat and double the amount of protein than a Dairy Cow.
- When Eland milk is exposed to air and then stored at 37 degrees it can last up to 8 months, whereas milk from Domestic Cattle under similar conditions will deteriorate within days.
Eland Antelope - Altina Wildlife Park
Eland Antelope (Taurotragus Oryx) Habitat: Found throughout Southern Africa: South Sudan, Ethiopia, Angola, Namibia, Botswana, Malawi, Tanzania, Swaziland, Zimbabwe and South Africa. 50% of Eland in Africa live in protected reserves. They are found in semi-arid areas but can also be found in...
www.altinawildlife.com
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another alternate domesticate is the marama bean, a perennial legume found in southern africa.
-Above ground it produces seeds similar to the peanut or soybean, but is actually higher in nutritional value than either; below ground it produces a high-protein tuber that is bigger and healthier than potatoes, yams or sugar beets. And to top it off, the planet can also generate a high quality vegetable oil.
-The plant thrives in the poor quality, sandy soil of the desert, withstanding blistering summer temperatures, freezing nights of the Kalahari winters, and highly erratic – and often absent – rainfall. While marama seeds are virtually inedible straight from the pod, they are delicious once they harden and are often roasted, compared to the nutty flavor of cashew nuts. In addition to the oil that can be produced from the seeds, the plant is particularly good fodder for livestock.
desertification.wordpress.com
-Above ground it produces seeds similar to the peanut or soybean, but is actually higher in nutritional value than either; below ground it produces a high-protein tuber that is bigger and healthier than potatoes, yams or sugar beets. And to top it off, the planet can also generate a high quality vegetable oil.
-The plant thrives in the poor quality, sandy soil of the desert, withstanding blistering summer temperatures, freezing nights of the Kalahari winters, and highly erratic – and often absent – rainfall. While marama seeds are virtually inedible straight from the pod, they are delicious once they harden and are often roasted, compared to the nutty flavor of cashew nuts. In addition to the oil that can be produced from the seeds, the plant is particularly good fodder for livestock.
Marama bean (Tylosema esculentum) : green gold of Africa (La Vida Locavore / Worldwatch)
Read at : The Green Gold of Africa Crossposted from the Worldwatch Institute’s Nourishing the Planet. Often called ‘magic’ marama, the green gold of Africa, this plant is working …
desertification.wordpress.com
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Here is a a plant that might be one of the Agricultural solutions for blisteringly hot struck by Global Warming Africa, Mediterranean,Middle East And Australia.
Eat your heart out Jared diamond,another alternate domesticate is the marama bean, a perennial legume found in southern africa.
-Above ground it produces seeds similar to the peanut or soybean, but is actually higher in nutritional value than either; below ground it produces a high-protein tuber that is bigger and healthier than potatoes, yams or sugar beets. And to top it off, the planet can also generate a high quality vegetable oil.
-The plant thrives in the poor quality, sandy soil of the desert, withstanding blistering summer temperatures, freezing nights of the Kalahari winters, and highly erratic – and often absent – rainfall. While marama seeds are virtually inedible straight from the pod, they are delicious once they harden and are often roasted, compared to the nutty flavor of cashew nuts. In addition to the oil that can be produced from the seeds, the plant is particularly good fodder for livestock.
Marama bean (Tylosema esculentum) : green gold of Africa (La Vida Locavore / Worldwatch)
Read at : The Green Gold of Africa Crossposted from the Worldwatch Institute’s Nourishing the Planet. Often called ‘magic’ marama, the green gold of Africa, this plant is working …
One bean does not turn a forager into a farmer. In fact if they are so easy to forage why bother to farm?
well it might be a later domesticate since the area it grows in is very harsh.
