Alternate Cradles of Civilisation

[Paradoxer]

That depends where. The southern edge along the Trans-Siberian Railroad where most people in Siberia live and most agriculture occurs is similar to Edmonton or Saskatoon with a similar growing season. The climate is slightly more continental too, with slightly warmer summers and slightly colder winters, but otherwise very similar.

Most African populations are adapted to that, hence the sickle cell gene which reduces the death rate from malaria. As for medicine, jungles are rich in plant life and many of these plants contain compounds related to modern medicine that treat disease or poison. Traditional medicine goes back thousands upon thousands of years.

Yellow fever was indigenous to Africa and African populations are more resistant to it. It spread globally because of the slave trade and colonialism. Although many insectborne diseases cause a lot of misery in Africa today, I don't think it's a total hindrance to a civilisation in the rainforest there any more than insect pests were a challenge to civilisation in India or Indonesia. It does however likely mean fewer domesticates since the tsetse fly and other insects spread often fatal diseases to many common domestic animals. Horses for instance are probably out.

They could possibly domesticate more animals. Another issue in jungles and tropical climate is lack of incentive to certain agriculture and the abundance of prey and naturally growing food. Why go wheat or whatever when the trees have fruits or you have meat nearby to hunt.

The bugs are make some crops harder to impossible to grow in some areas. Pest eat them. Although humans can domesticate plants and very slowly modified even then with few centuries maybe less. Compare some of new world crops the Europeans modified. Some don’t even look same anymore.

I recommend for Africa someone fights back or even neuter expansion of Bantu who wrecked much of sub Sahara Africa. I honestly think that happened to Pygmy or something similar.

Interesting idea, what if some of Pygmy people create a civilization and unify to fight back aggression from invasions. Build homes in trees and build fort palace complexes in mountains?

With animals they could domesticate zebras to replace horses. Maybe elephants and some birds. How do chickens do in tropical places? Also if not then maybe domesticate some tropical bird to eat and get food from.

Also could any ape or primate be domesticated by Africans as beast of burden or even as war animals?

 

[Arkenfolm]

They could possibly domesticate more animals. Another issue in jungles and tropical climate is lack of incentive to certain agriculture and the abundance of prey and naturally growing food. Why go wheat or whatever when the trees have fruits or you have meat nearby to hunt.

That is true, but let's remember the jungles of southern Mexico were an independent center of plant domestication that fused with those in central Mexico. They aren't too much worse than river valley civilisations in arid/semi-arid lands or something like the highlands of New Guinea.

The bugs are make some crops harder to impossible to grow in some areas. Pest eat them. Although humans can domesticate plants and very slowly modified even then with few centuries maybe less. Compare some of new world crops the Europeans modified. Some don’t even look same anymore.

I recommend for Africa someone fights back or even neuter expansion of Bantu who wrecked much of sub Sahara Africa. I honestly think that happened to Pygmy or something similar.

Pests would only be a problem for domesticating crops, since the plants themselves have defenses against insect pests and resistance to pathogens insects carry can be evolved in plants. A system of agriculture might evolve that lures insects that eat these pests or otherwise kill them (i.e. parasitic wasps that lay their eggs on the bugs and the larvae eat them alive).

I don't know if you can really say the Bantu wrecked sub-Saharan Africa anymore than you can say the Indo-Europeans wrecked Europe. Even if the Bantu overwhelmed interesting cultures like the ancestors of the modern Iraqw, the Bantu evolved many strong societies that incorporated influences of those they conquered.

Interesting idea, what if some of Pygmy people create a civilization and unify to fight back aggression from invasions. Build homes in trees and build fort palace complexes in mountains?

With animals they could domesticate zebras to replace horses. Maybe elephants and some birds. How do chickens do in tropical places? Also if not then maybe domesticate some tropical bird to eat and get food from.

I could've sworn there was a very short (sadly) TL here involving that.

Also could any ape or primate be domesticated by Africans as beast of burden or even as war animals?

Apes and elephants are too slow-growing and tempermental to be truly domesticated. Tamed, yes, domesticated, probably not. Apes are likely to be straight up killed since they can be extremely hostile toward humans (chimpanzees and gorillas will kill and eat human children and drive out adults they think are hostile).

 

[Hendric]

Mississippi delta

• Pros - Mississippi is very navigable, Caribbean/Gulf of Mexico is manageable with Bronze Age technology, trade with Mesoamerica is easy, fertile farmland, warm summers and mild winters
• Cons - close enough for Mesoamericans to attack, few natural defences, humidity, no horses

Isnt the mississipi river prone to alot of unpredictable flooding?

 

[Hendric]

Africa
Lower Nile

• Pros - very navigable river, easy access to Congo basin or eastern ports, mild winters, good for grazing
• Cons - too close to Egypt (if in Sudan), lacks natural defences, extremely hot summer, land not great

Access to the congo basin from the lower nile is actually EXTREMELY difficult. from wiki:
"For many years the swamp, and especially its thicket of vegetation, proved an impenetrable barrier to navigation along the Nile. The ancient Egyptians failed to penetrate the Sudd and reach the areas south of it.[4] In AD 61, a party of Roman soldiers sent by the Emperor Nero proceeded up the White Nile but were not able to get beyond the Sudd, which marked the limit of Roman penetration into equatorial Africa.[5] For the same reasons in later times, the search for the source of the Nile was particularly difficult; it eventually involved overland expeditions from the central African coast, so as to avoid having to travel through the Sudd.: The sudd is the largest wetland in Africa and so filled with disease causing insects/parasites as well.

It also isnt very good for a large sedentary population due to constant flooding. During the dry season its scorching hot and the clay soil gets very hard. bad for largescale farming

 

[Tessitore]

What about somewhere in south-west England? Abundant mineral resources including copper and tin, depending on exact location would only have to worry about being attacked overland from one direction, multiple rivers and good harbours, farmland isn't the best but is probably good enough, warmest climate in the British Isles due to being right on the path of the Gulf Stream, isolated location but there's evidence of Bronze Age (and possibly earlier, I'm not sure) interactions with Mediterranean cultures in OTL despite it.

 

[manitobot]

I am actually working on a timeline similar to this, involving numerous cradles of civilization and how they interact with each other. I can post any relevant materials if you would like.

 

[Hendric]

i can see the congo river being an ok place if you get agriculture there earlier and in the form of Bananas and rice , introduce terra preta techniques (which supported an estimated 10 million people in the amazon) , get rid of the tse tse fly and some tropical diseases but that last one might be asb.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Isnt the mississipi river prone to alot of unpredictable flooding?

Compared to many rivers in the temperate parts of the Old World, yes, but it's probably on par with the Huang He which of course gave rise to Chinese civilisation. Flood control is usually cited as a major driver of complexity in cultures.

 

[Insane Ranter]

Isn't there malaria?

The issue with tropical rain forests is the soil is very poor for farming. Unless you figure out a way to fertilize the soil after clearing it your people are facing the same issues as people in OTL.

 

[August II Mocny]

The issue with tropical rain forests is the soil is very poor for farming. Unless you figure out a way to fertilize the soil after clearing it your people are facing the same issues as people in OTL.

No till agriculture?

 

[Tessitore]

The issue with tropical rain forests is the soil is very poor for farming. Unless you figure out a way to fertilize the soil after clearing it your people are facing the same issues as people in OTL.

Would this work: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta

 

[Hendric]

The issue with tropical rain forests is the soil is very poor for farming. Unless you figure out a way to fertilize the soil after clearing it your people are facing the same issues as people in OTL.

Along with terra preta, night soil could also be used to replenish the soil. It seems effective. The aztecs, japanese and chinese used it.

Recycling Animal and Human Dung is the Key to Sustainable Farming

Flushing the water closet wreaks ecological havoc, deprives agricultural soils of essential nutrients and makes food production dependent on fossil fuels.

www.lowtechmagazine.com

 

[Tessitore]

Regarding the idea of a cradle of civilization in the British Isles, be it in the Thames valley, the south-west or elsewhere, if it either didn't use the standard Western Neolithic crop package or decided to greatly expand on it, then they'd have the following possibilities to work with;

• Oak (Acorns, in addition to timber and coppicing).
• Linden/Lime (coppices well, leaves and flowers are edible, inner bark can be used as a source of fibre for weaving and making cordage).
• Hazel (Nuts).
• Wild Cherry/Gean
• Bird Cherry
• European Crab Apple
• Elderberry
• Blackthorn/Sloe
• Blackberry/Bramble
• Sea Buckthorn/Seaberry (loaded with vitamin C, roots are nitrogen fixing)
• Winter Tares/Garden Vetch (also nitrogen fixing)
• Burdock
• Parsnip
• Common Hogweed (very useful plant this one; green vegetable on top, large starchy root underneath, and seeds that are a very aromatic spice).
• Willowherb
• Sweet Cicely
• Dandelion
• Chicory
• Sea kale
• Pignut
• Pig Nut/Earth-nut (not to be confused with the other Pignut)
• Meadowsweet
• Sea Beet (the ancestor of beetroot, manglewurzle, sugar beet, Swiss Chard and Spinach Beet in OTL).
• Crow Garlic
• Field Garlic
• Wild Garlic/Ramsons
• Round-Headed Leek
• Rocambole/Sand Leek
• Garlic Mustard/Jack-by-the-Hedge
• Fat Hen/Lambsquarters (probably as a green but has potential as a pseudocereal).
• Stinging Nettle (both as food and for fibre to make cloth)
• Comfrey (edible and medicinal)
• Sorrel
• Watercress
• Wintercress/ Yellow Rocket
• Hairy Bittercress
• Large Bittercress
• Wild Cabbage (the ancestor of all the Brassica vegetables).
• Ground Elder

Also an assortment of herbs and, surprisingly, spices, some of which have been severely underused in OTL.

In terms of potential livestock, things somewhat depend on when the POD happens but at minimum there's cattle, pigs, at least two species of deer, ducks and geese.

Of course, most of the above would also be true for any other hypothetical Northern European cradle.

ETA: Interestingly it's a crop package that doesn't require the development of any sort of plough, at least not at first since unless/until they start doing things on a massive scale it'd be vegetable gardens (for which you need spades and hoes rather than a plough), orchards (just need the ability to dig a few holes as more fruit or nut trees became needed), managed woodlands and pastures. The only "open field" crops would be nettles grown for fibre (and they're perennial so they'd only have to do so once and could expand gradually) and possibly Fat Hen if they start growing it as a pseudocereal (which would probably be the point at which they finally get around to inventing some sort of plough).

I also have to wonder about how a diet composed primarily of root vegetables and possibly nuts supplemented by greens, fruit (when in season) and, depending on how much pastoralism they get up to and how much fishing they do, possibly quite a bit of animal products would compare to the diet of mostly grain supplemented by other things that early farmers in Europe had in OTL, given that the latter led to all sorts of negative effects on health.

 

[Hendric]

The issue with tropical rain forests is the soil is very poor for farming. Unless you figure out a way to fertilize the soil after clearing it your people are facing the same issues as people in OTL.

Kingdoms do exist in the tropical forests but yes i get your point with farming. Just wanted to share this

 

[Tessitore]

Just because I can, here's how my own neck of the woods would stack up;

Pros: Large, navigable river plus a large number of smaller rivers and streams, decent farmland, easy access to the sea, surrounding hills and moors result in a local micro-climate that is significantly milder than the norm, and might offer some protection from attack, decent amount of natural resources (limestone, clay, alum, iron ore, jet, etc).

Cons; It's still Northern England so even with the micro-climate the weather is not the best, location is isolated, protection provided by surrounding hills is far from complete, no tin or copper ore.

 

[Skraea]

In North America, there were two regions that developed civilizations independent of Mesoamerica......................
Oasisamerica= Produced Cliff Dwellers (used to be called Anasazi), Hohokam, Mogollon and a few others where they developed irrigation, agriculture and some complex architecture. True, there was some trade with Mesoamerica, but their civilizations seemed to be developed independently.

The Mississippi River Valley= Produced the Mound Builders. AKA Mississippians, Adena, Hopewell, Calusa which culture spread as far west as the Great Plains, as far east as the Atlantic Coast and as far north as Canada. Had the Archaic Period, Woodland Period, Mississippi Period which spanned hundreds if not thousands of years. They were the dominant pre-Columbian civilization of North America producing complex agriculture, cloth, working copper and crops that were not Mesoamerican in origin.

Plus I believe the regions of Scandinavia and Baltics developed independent cultures with their own trade routes, metallurgy and architecture. The Beakers of north Europe certainly were fascinating.

Pontic Steppe= gave rise to the nomadic Scythians who also had metallurgy, kurgans and a complex religion.

I think two good alternate Cradles would be South Africa and the southern part of Australia. Specifically the River Murray valley which already saw firestick farming and aquaculture along with dams. As for South Africa, well the region is Mediterranean, the Khoekhoe did keep cattle, sheep and goats as well,

 

[Gloss]

One important question to answer here is how much time any of those given region really was open to agriculture and how stable the envinroment was, for example a lot of Europe between 14k and 9k BP was in the process of seeing the expansion of forests and retreat of the tundra biome while at the same time a lot of land was being submerged by increasing sea levels.
But maybe I'm overstating the necessity of a stable environment behind the invention of agriculture, how stable were OTL cradles?

 

[Skraea]

As for the South Africa region I look at some independent crops and livestock..................
Tubers and roots- We have the livingstone potato which is grown and gives a high yield, the elephants foot yam which while slow growing gets huge, These should provide a decent founders crop.
Miscellaneous= Rooibos a tea, kai apple, num-num or natal plum, medlar, and a few others
Then you have the aloes, haworthias, gasterias and astrolobas all of which are beneficial succulents.
For livestock there are some choices. We can rule out the cape buffalo unless there is extensive selective breeding meaning they would be a later domesticate if then, but we have several antelope species to choose from like wildebeest, gemsbok and waterbuck. I don't know how viable the warthog would be as a domesticate, but the Khoisan wouldn't have the same animosity towards pigs that they did in North Africa. Mongeese seem to be domesticated worldwide and are definitely renowned snakers. Then you have the ostrich, sandgrouse, francolin and a few other birds.

 

[Skraea]

Continuing on a potential South Africa Cradle, the eland is farmed and found in southern Africa so they seem like a good alternate domesticate livestock. Servals and caracals could be domesticated and useful in both verminating and hunting as they were up north and in South Asia, and while it's out there if the giant warthog survived, maybe the Khoisan or their ancestors could find a way to domesticate them. And while aggressive, the bushpig could be a viable candidate through selective breeding.

 

[Hendric]

Continuing on a potential South Africa Cradle, the eland is farmed and found in southern Africa so they seem like a good alternate domesticate livestock. Servals and caracals could be domesticated and useful in both verminating and hunting as they were up north and in South Asia, and while it's out there if the giant warthog survived, maybe the Khoisan or their ancestors could find a way to domesticate them. And while aggressive, the bushpig could be a viable candidate through selective breeding.

I can see the Ostrich being a useful domesticate. Ostrich meat is red like beef and their giant eggs could sustain many people, feathers for clothing and skin for leather, (ostriches can even be ridden). They weigh up to 200 to 300 lbs. They reach sexual maturity at two to four years of age, with females maturing six months earlier than males. They lay a dozen or more eggs at a time. Proportionately, although Ostriches lay the biggest eggs, their eggs are actually small for their size. They're fairly broad eaters, and quite social, living in herds and following alphas The Southern Ostrich was partially domesticated in the 19th century.