It's more calling only Aragon&Castile Spain that is tad anachronistic that early.
A Richard for All Seasons - Richard III wins the Battle of Bosworth Field
- Thread starter Philippe le Bel
- Start date
Mainly that calling the Catholic Monarchy Spain before the 1500s was not exactly correct as Spain was the equivalent of Iberia.
It took a couple of generations for the union of Aragon and Castile to exclusively be referred to as Spain.
No worries. It's one of those things that has been around for so long you don't really question until you run headlong into it.Oh, thank you for putting it like that.
I only came across it a few years back myself.
I'll think I shall refer to Castile-Aragon-Portgugal as the Iberian Empire however!
Update on the ending of this world that actually is important to this thread (it relates to Catherine of Aragon and I love her)
So evidently a serie about Catherine of Aragon called the Spanish Princess has been green-lithed by Starz, the same producers who created the half-wacked serie called the White Queen, that did have some good points, and the awful, effing terrible sequel called The White Princess that I would not touch with a ten foot barge pole if my life depended on it.
It's based on Philippa Gregory's crappy, lousy, so called novel and it has Emma Frost as a showrunner like The White Princess, because why not?
Because we clearly needs a serie that will butcher Catherine of Aragon, distort everyone around her into a cartoon characters and more AWFUL CLOTHING to make one of the most fashionable women of her time into a Mary A La Reign dressed brat. Writers on this forum, we need to step up our Catherine of Aragon game and me and Philippe is gonna update this thread as soon as possible. If for nothing else then to save my bloody sanity.
Joy to the world everone. Allow me to express (in my own and @Philippe le Bel thread) my emotions about this WONDERFUL decision that has been made.
*SCREAMING FOREVER IN HORROR* NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
*MORE SCREAMING*
So evidently a serie about Catherine of Aragon called the Spanish Princess has been green-lithed by Starz, the same producers who created the half-wacked serie called the White Queen, that did have some good points, and the awful, effing terrible sequel called The White Princess that I would not touch with a ten foot barge pole if my life depended on it.
It's based on Philippa Gregory's crappy, lousy, so called novel and it has Emma Frost as a showrunner like The White Princess, because why not?
Because we clearly needs a serie that will butcher Catherine of Aragon, distort everyone around her into a cartoon characters and more AWFUL CLOTHING to make one of the most fashionable women of her time into a Mary A La Reign dressed brat. Writers on this forum, we need to step up our Catherine of Aragon game and me and Philippe is gonna update this thread as soon as possible. If for nothing else then to save my bloody sanity.
Joy to the world everone. Allow me to express (in my own and @Philippe le Bel thread) my emotions about this WONDERFUL decision that has been made.
*SCREAMING FOREVER IN HORROR* NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
*MORE SCREAMING*
Thank you Vandevere, I'll take your advice to heart.
Now I want suggestions, ideas or critism for the continuation of this TL to cheer me up!
Now I want suggestions, ideas or critism for the continuation of this TL to cheer me up!
I'd be interested to read a scene or two of what's happening in Ireland or Scotland?
Hmmm, so far I think we have seen James IV wed and Ireland will become relevant later.
XIV: World's Fair
Philippe le Bel
Banned
A Richard for All Seasons
World's Fair
Summer 1498
World's Fair
Summer 1498
“You see, my prince, the world is round, much like this apple,” Erasmus said, hefting the fruit he had just bought. The fruit and cooking stands of the fair were just across the road, and the courtly passers-by took good care not to crowd or offend the easily recognizable prince.
Prince Richard held out his small hand and Erasmus handed him the shiny yellow globe. He gazed at it with the big grey eyes he had inherited from Queen Joanna, and frowned. “Why then...why can we not then walk around. No matter where I go there is always more land. Until I get to the Channel, then I can get to France and Europe and Asia, and they are almost endless.”
“Indeed, my prince, almost endless. Where Asia ends, the Atlantic to the west of Ireland and your mother’s native Portugal begins.” Erasmus leaned back against the tree they were sitting under, rubbing his long nose and watching Richard with a smile. The stalls across the way were covered but the many customers, having bought their lunch, retreated quickly to any shade they could find. It was a fine, hot day.
Richard pinched the apple between his thumb and middle finger and spinned it with his other hand. “How is it that we don’t slide off, then? Unless we live at the very top, in which case the French should slide off.” He grinned, realizing that that would solve at least some of his father’s problems.
Erasmus chuckled. “Wouldn’t that be nice? No, my prince, maybe at the bottom of the world men must hold on to keep from falling into the sky, but here in England and the world we know, we always fall to the ground. Maybe everything falls to the ground.”
“Not the stars!” said a young man who came up to them boldly. He was dressed in clothes of fine quality but dull color, but his dancing, bright eyes made up for it.
“You and your exceptions, Thomas!” Erasmus cried, shaking the man’s hand. “My prince, this is Thomas More, a young friend of mine who will one day be either an excellent lawyer or a very poor monk.”
More grimaced as he bowed. “My prince, it is an honor.”
Prince Richard waved a hand with surprising grace for an eleven year old. “Please sit if you will, Master More. The day is hot and you might like to rest.” As More sat he hid his surprise at the prince’s politeness very well, the prince reflected. His face was smooth, without acne, but Richard guessed his age to be about twenty.
Richard and More both being at a disadvantage, knowing only Erasmus, the Dutch monk took the lead. “Yes yes, my friend Thomas will be a great lawyer. To be a monk one must obey, Thomas is too independent for that. He is cursed, he can think for himself,” he said with a wink to Prince Richard.
More blushed at these compliments and was pleased that Erasmus was praising him to the boy that would one day be king. “There are arguments to be made even in theology, Erasmus,” he replied. “Whether action will be done or not, whether changes will be made or not.”
Erasmus opened his mouth to reply when Prince Richard bit into his apple and the two men turned their heads to look at him. “Is it not better to make arguments in law, to better serve the kingdom?”
More, after giving Erasmus time to reply, said, “To serve the kingdom is admirable, my prince, and deserving of many rewards. But to serve God is deserving of heaven.”
Prince Richard chewed and swallowed before answering, “One may serve God well enough by living humbly and giving up the fruits of labor to the needy. But could God not be served better by saving the souls of many, as a statesman, by labor that only draws ingratitude? That is proper selflessness.”
“It could be pride to think oneself competent enough to administer the kingdom.”
“It could be displeasing to God to squander one’s gifts in sterile contemplation.”
More’s eyebrows raised as he thought on this, and Erasmus sighed, passing a hand over his eyes. “My prince is somewhat autocratic. Who are you to judge a man’s gift, hmmm?”
“The highest judge that can be asked after my father and the pope,” Richard answered with an impish grin, ruffling his own dark auburn hair.
“The pope comes before your father!” Erasmus reminded him with false anger as he stood, grinning. “Come, I see your energy isn’t quite spent yet. Could More accompany us if he wishes, my prince?” Richard did not need to think before nodding his assent, and young Thomas More smiled as he leapt up to follow the heir to England and his tutor, followed by three liveried guardsmen.
The trio were in London that day, just outside Westminster Abbey, where a fair was being held to recognize the recent success of explorer John Cabot’s expedition to India. Since the discovery of the open oceanic route to India in 1493 by the Italian Christopher Columbus, in service of King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, Joanna had been hectoring King Richard to do the same, and to take advantage of the riches of the far east/new west, and England’s prime position as a superior sailing nation. King Richard had held off for years, distracted by events in France, Scotland, Spain, and his own family, but in the end had given in and hired the Venetian John Cabot.
The Italian madman, John Cabot himself, by artist Giustino Menescardi (1762)
The man had returned in February of 1497, describing a land different and colder than the balmy islands discovered by Columbus, and Richard’s geographers agreed that he must have landed to the north of India, in Serica [1] perhaps, judging by the color of the natives’ skin. Nevertheless, he had brought back rich and miraculous things.
Some were merely astounding and interesting only as curiosities, such as the necklaces of seashells and smooth, round stones. Then came the fabulous. Tusks and horns of “great fat sea cows, each weighing a ton” [2], antlers of “great, shaggy, long-faced deer, aggressive to the men” [3], and a strange yellow crop called maize, which had been difficult to obtain and only after much “aggressive trading”. Then there were the thick, luxurious, huge pelts of the giant wolves and bears which lived there, or so John Cabot’s log said. And finally the detailed, painted woodcut of sharp-toothed natives with oak colored skin, narrow eyes, and flat noses. Cabot said that it had been too dangerous to try to take a native back with him.
The plethora of completely new goods and places inflamed the young prince’s imagination, and ever since hearing of Cabot’s return and his description of what he’d found, the prince had pestered his father for more, more, more! King Richard, having already made his treasury suffer a bit to appease his queen, strictly told his son to wait a bit.
The fair, where Cabot’s discoveries (under heavy guard) were displayed to the court and wealthier public, had naturally given rise to a parallel fair of all kinds of goods, services, and of course food, which is how the prince got his apple that day. The king’s friend Francis Lovell had cleverly suggested an admission fee to the fair, which would keep out the poor and provide at least some funding for future expeditions, and had had it spread about far and wide that Cabot would be back again with new curiosities, and that attendance would be well worth it.
As with anything to do with the royal court, this groundbreaking exploration had turned into a social occasion, with all the great lords and ladies of the realm, and many of the minor ones, in attendance. Richard, Erasmus, and More passed by the exhibits again, for the prince could not get enough of them, and the other two delighted in using their nearness to the prince to get closer to the curiosities than most people could. The guards parted to let the three touch and very closely examine the items.
The rest of the fair was not so fun to Richard. Much of his and Erasmus’s time, in fact, was spent unwillingly talking to mothers of noble girls who hoped that the prince would fall in love with the girls, as for barons’ daughters to be the mistress of a king or heir was an honor. Thankfully the prince's bastard half-sister Rosamund saw his plight and saved him, and he was able to rejoin the discussions of Erasmus and More.
As they moved on an almost royal crowd had to split to let them pass. Just look at the gaggle of Edward IV’s girls! Cecily married to well-off Ralph Scrope of Upsall, Anne married to Thomas Howard [4] to her great advantage, and Catherine, eminently marriageable and with a match practically made by the king. Only seventeen year old Bridget was off limits, wrapped in her nun habit but still able to exercise this privilege of family. Elizabeth, who had been Duchess of Beja in Portugal, had died of complications in childbirth in 1497, but Cecily had brought her own daughter Elizabeth, who was now six years old.
The late, dearly departed, Elizabeth of York, Duchess of Beja, by Sarah, Countess of Essex
The ladies were accompanied by their brother Arthur (born 1470), a bastard (though uncontestedly so) like them, governor of the Isle of Wight, and also Margaret of Warwick, daughter of Edward IV's and Richard III’s attainted brother Duke George of Clarence. As the prince passed the ladies fell silent and Prince Richard was almost sure that they had been talking about either himself or, more likely, his father. It had been his father, Richard III, after all, who had had parliament declare the girls and their brothers [5] bastards. Though their well-being was tied to England, there was no love lost between them and the king, and it was well known that Catherine hated her betrothal to George Hastings. Only Margaret of Warwick could say that she didn’t mind the king’s presence.
After Prince Richard, Erasmus, and More had passed, Arthur blew out his cheeks. “I don’t fear to admit that that prince makes me nervous.” Having been the bastard of King Edward IV, he had always been a bit bitter about his lowered importance since Richard’s ascension.
“A child of eleven,” Catherine said, haughty and curt despite having only been four years old at her father’s death. “Really Arthur, has Wight made you so soft?” She had been angry at Arthur since he’d been unable to prevent her betrothal to Hastings, and even angrier that this Hastings was only eleven years old himself. She would practically be an old maid, at twenty four, when she married him!
Arthur was impassive at this insult from his sister, for though he’d only been thirteen at Edward IV’s death, he had viewed himself as the protector of his half-sisters. “I’ve weathered many a storm there, dear sister, but mightier storms than all can come from London.”
“Isn’t that the truth!” cried the voice of Earl Richard Ratcliffe of Oxford, who had overheard this remark. Arthur winced, for he could now fear for his head. The old man, who would be fifty next year, drew closer to the siblings, stood next to his wife, and said more quietly, “I do mean what I say. My good friend is a fine king, and I am grateful to him for my Margaret [6], but he can be a trifle overbearing. Especially where his beloved Joanna is concerned.”
The group wasn’t surprised by this sentiment from Ratcliffe. Most of the king’s old friends were still very close to him, kept together by the duties of government and ties of friendship, but they did note a change in him. More religious, more serious, more contemplative. But weren’t they all older, quieter? Though he had often kept his own counsel, it was hard for King Richard’s friends to remember how boyishly excited he had been at Joanna’s arrival from Portugal, almost thirteen years ago now. Even the men who had been with Richard at Bosworth, the last battle of the dynastic wars, were somewhat put off.
This included Duke John de la Pole of Suffolk [7], governor of Normandy, who was never far from his friend Ratcliffe whenever they were in the same town. Though some fifteen years older than De la Pole, Ratcliffe was a great drinking companion and always gave sound advice. Arthur, at twenty eight, was eight years younger than De la Pole, but could say the same. Even in his old age Ratcliffe had never forgotten the arguments, hopes, and aspirations of the youthful mind.
Thankfully for the two friends, Ratcliffe administered the rapes of Sussex for the king, a very important post since the greatest physical foreign danger to England was invasion from the south. From Caesar to William the Conqueror himself to Roger Mortimer and Queen Isabella’s invasion to dethrone Edward II to, most recently, the invasion of 1470 in support of Henry VI and then Richard’s brother Edward IV’s subsequent invasion of 1471 to seize Henry’s throne again, the resource rich and politically important south of England was vulnerable.
Thus Ratcliffe was just across the Channel from Governor De la Pole and their letters usually reached their destinations within a week, and in any case De la Pole visited often since the family of his wife, Margaret FitzAlan, was that of the Earl of Arundel (basically Sussex). Still, the friends agreed that they didn’t see each other enough. Both had taken the opportunity of the fair to be in each other’s great good company, and De la Pole saw Ratcliffe now with the disinherited princesses, and made his way over.
Arthur, not quite as tall as his father Edward IV but still a head above most men, gazed out above the crowd, looking for a reason to leave. De la Pole was always so damn perfect, ugh, or so Arthur opined. “Ahhhh, Johnny,” he said, pretending not to have seen De la Pole. The Duke of Suffolk was surprised at being addressed this way (his name was John, after all), then Arthur looked down at him and started. “Oh, I apologize my lord, but I’ve just seen John of Gloucester over there. I have to go keep an eye on him,” Arthur went on, and extracted himself from the group. It was well known that Arthur Plantagenet and John of Gloucester (Richard III’s bastard and governor of Calais, born 1468) were mortal enemies, and took every opportunity to compete. It was no surprise that Arthur would be itching to fight him on this hot day.
Amused at this apparent misunderstanding, John de la Pole looked around at the gathered girls and smiled. “Well my ladies, you may soon have a French cousin-in-law to include in your games.” Though he was a great supporter of Richard, he was very well-spoken and knightly, and on friendly terms with Edward IV’s girls.
“What news is this, then! King Louis begging my uncle not to lock him in the Tower again, huh?” Margaret of Warwick said, and everyone laughed.
“That is not too far from the truth,” De la Pole said with raised eyebrows. “Louis and his cousin Charles of Angouleme are having a war of letters now. Both of them have healthy, pretty little girls, and they want our Prince Edmund for son-in-law.”
Ratcliffe stroked his smooth chin, frowning contemplatively. Then he raised his eyebrows and nodded approval. “A very good idea, I dare say his Highness finds these offers to be welcome. We’ll need to deal with that whipper snapper in Scotland [8] and then, God willing, we need to see to affairs in Ireland. For a hundred years now, we’ve been losing power there! Not even a tenth of the island is properly taxed.”
“That Earl of Kildare,” De la Pole nodded. “Needs to be put to heel. Something we should gather more information about.” Richard III’s father Duke Richard of York had put Ireland more or less in order, but the situation had fallen apart since his death, without adequate attention due to internal strife and insecurity. “But my brother [9] of Scotland is our good friend!”
“Fair weather friend,” Margaret of Warwick said, agreeing with her husband. “The Scottish lords who caused all that trouble in the north a few years ago, for which his father James III had to pay, are all good friends of the new king’s. They were even at James and Anne’s wedding in York, remembering them scurrying from our king whenever he looked their way?”
“Running from the stink about him, no doubt,” Catherine said, which amused the girls and Ratcliffe, but shocked De la Pole. He looked around quickly, hoping that nobody had heard. How was he to guess that Catherine would soon be Richard’s least favorite person, and for other reasons?
[1] Medieval word for China, from Latin
[2] The walrus
[3] Moose
[4] Son of the Lord Constable and Duke of Norfolk Thomas Howard
[5] The Princes in the Tower
[6] Richard had gladly allowed his good friend Ratcliffe to marry Margaret of Warwick, a girl twenty five years Ratcliffe’s junior
[7] Also Earl of Lincoln, he inherited Suffolk when his father died in 1495
[8] Referring to twenty five year old King James IV of Scotland
[9] James IV is married to John de la Pole’s sister Anne
Philippe le Bel
Banned
So everybody, long time no see, I see We've just been busy with life and all that, but here's an update to whet your appetite. Kind of a short one but it serves to introduce a few of the domestic personalities that may become important later...
Oh yah, and don't forget to vote for your favorite TL in the Turtledoves You can vote for more than one, so by all means vote for every TL you enjoy immensely. Hope you enjoy, and may the discussion and questions begin.
We've just been busy with life and all that, but here's an update to whet your appetite. Kind of a short one but it serves to introduce a few of the domestic personalities that may become important later...Oh yah, and don't forget to vote for your favorite TL in the Turtledoves
You can vote for more than one, so by all means vote for every TL you enjoy immensely. Hope you enjoy, and may the discussion and questions begin.TADA! WE'RE BACK IN WITH A UPDATE!
Worldbuilding is so much fun!
Edmund of York's hand are being sought after by many, but he is currently the spare to the throne, so perhaps a english match will be happening...
Worldbuilding is so much fun!
Edmund of York's hand are being sought after by many, but he is currently the spare to the throne, so perhaps a english match will be happening...
Is Catherine's betrothal an attempt to make up with the Hastings family for Richard's execution of William, Lord Hastings (assuming the George in question is an ATL version of this guy, who was 10-12 in 1498 IOTL and a grandson of William) in 1483? Of course, shoving together a niece who doesn't like you and a guy whose grandfather you executed mightn't be the best idea.
Does John de la Pole have any kids ITTL? He didn't manage any with Margaret Fitzalan IOTL despite a few years of marriage. Though even if there was something wrong there regarding Margaret/John's ability to have children, I suppose his brothers are in favour and have married well, so the de la Poles won't splutter into extinction as they did IOTL.
Huh, I thought the bastard Arthur Plantagenet was slightly older (I've generally seen an early 1460s birth date), but apparently he was born at some indeterminate point between 1461 and 1475.
Does John de la Pole have any kids ITTL? He didn't manage any with Margaret Fitzalan IOTL despite a few years of marriage. Though even if there was something wrong there regarding Margaret/John's ability to have children, I suppose his brothers are in favour and have married well, so the de la Poles won't splutter into extinction as they did IOTL.
Huh, I thought the bastard Arthur Plantagenet was slightly older (I've generally seen an early 1460s birth date), but apparently he was born at some indeterminate point between 1461 and 1475.
The whole Catherine/Hastings match is indeed a attempt to make up with his family.
I think that John de la Poole will have children in this TL, he has more time now to have them.
We are sort of iffy on Arthur's age, let's just say that he's a bit older than his hated cousin John of Glouchester.
I think that John de la Poole will have children in this TL, he has more time now to have them.
We are sort of iffy on Arthur's age, let's just say that he's a bit older than his hated cousin John of Glouchester.
Yay, thank you so much!
As you can see in this update everything is not peaches and dandilions between the prince of Wales and his cousins at the moment....
Now, since Elizabeth of York, duchess of Beja has tragically perished, Duke Manuel's hand are currently avaliable for remarriage. He has at the moment two daughters from his late wife. Suggestions?
As you can see in this update everything is not peaches and dandilions between the prince of Wales and his cousins at the moment....
Now, since Elizabeth of York, duchess of Beja has tragically perished, Duke Manuel's hand are currently avaliable for remarriage. He has at the moment two daughters from his late wife. Suggestions?
That was the entire point of making this au! Of course it's not completly flawless, but at the moment it's rather good.