WI: Sherman stays east

[Arnold d.c]

Sherman is never sent west and C.F Smith is still Grant's right hand. How would this affect the ACW? Sherman wasn't a very good field commander so how far would he go as a general in the army of the potomac?

 

[TFSmith121]

WT Sherman's first command assignment at the formatiom

WT Sherman's first command assignment at the formation level (as a full colonel, RA) was the 3rd Brigade, 1st Division (Tyler) in the Army of Northeastern Virginia (McDowell) for the Bull Run campaign and aftermath, June to August, 1861. His fellow brigade commanders were Keyes, Schenck, and Richardson.

The brigade had three regiments of New Yorkers (13th, 69th, 79th) the 2nd Wisconsin and a regular battery (E, 3rd U.S.) and, all things considered, did fair during the campaign.

In August, the volunteer units were transferred out (to different commands, 69th NY mustered out) and Sherman's brigade got four new USV regiments, the 14th and 41st NY, the 4th Michigan, and the 9th Mass., which - along with the regular battery and Company I of the regular 2nd U.S. Cavalry. This lasted until October, at which point all four regiments and the battery went to Porter's Division in what was now the Army of the Potomac.

Historically, Sherman had relieved Anderson in Kentucky in October, but if remains in the East, it is entirely likely his career would have mirrored his peers from '61; division command in 1862, and - depending on his relationship with McClellan and his successors, and his ability on the battlefield, corps, grand division, or army command to follow.

Best,

 

[Admiral Halsey]

Just had a thought. Could Sherman potentially become commander of the AotP instead of Meade or even Hooker before him? One would imagine that Sherman would've gone after Lee after Pickett's charge when the AoNV was at its greatest risk.

 

[TFSmith121]

Potentially;

Just had a thought. Could Sherman potentially become commander of the AotP instead of Meade or even Hooker before him? One would imagine that Sherman would've gone after Lee after Pickett's charge when the AoNV was at its greatest risk.

Potentially; Sherman was appointed full colonel (infantry, RA) in May, 1861 and brigadier general of volunteers in August; he had graduated from West Point in 1840 (sixth in his class) and had 17 years of service when he left in '53, including a brevet for merit during the Mexican War.

Meade graduated from USMA in 1835, nineteenth in his class, had 24 years of service by '61, including a brevet in Mexico; an RA captain (Topographical Engineers) in '61, he was commissioned BG (USV) in August, 1861.

Hooker graduated in 1837, had 20 years of active service, won three brevets in Mexico (captain, major, and lt. colonel) in Mexico, leaving the Army in '53 as a full rank captain; he was commissioned BG (USV) in August, 1861.

Considering that Sherman was entrusted with departmental command in '61, at a time when Hooker was a brigade and then division commander, it is quite possible Sherman could have gotten an AotP division in '61, a corps in '62, and (possibly) an army in 1862-63... Sherman replacing McClellan after Antietam, rather than Burnside, is possible.

Best,

 

[Anaxagoras]

Just had a thought. Could Sherman potentially become commander of the AotP instead of Meade or even Hooker before him? One would imagine that Sherman would've gone after Lee after Pickett's charge when the AoNV was at its greatest risk.

I wouldn't expect him to move beyond division command, honestly. Sherman's advance IOTL was due primarily to his relationship with Grant.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Considering that Sherman has the political allies, like the Ewing family and his own brother, plus Lincoln, he does have a good supportive base.

But he wanted to move on his own merits. Its possible he would have a rather successful career in the East.

 

[TFSmith121]

Have to disagree with this:

I wouldn't expect him to move beyond division command, honestly. Sherman's advance IOTL was due primarily to his relationship with Grant.

Have to disagree with this; Sherman replaced Anderson at the departmental level (Kentucky/Cumberland) before he was affiliated with Grant - if anything, Sherman's connections with the Ewings in Ohio and Washington, and his solid performance at Bull Run, along with his obvious loyalty (made clear with the LSU incident) made clear he was a fast burner.

He was son of a former Ohio state chief justice; foster son and son-in-law of a former US senator and two-time cabinet officer, brother in law of three other distinguished members of the Ewing family, including the first chief justice of Kansas, and actual brother of a man who spent some 50 years in the House and Senate and multiple cabinets, I would expect him to get an AOTP division before Meade and Hooker; corps or grand division command would depend on how he did in the 1862-63 campaigns, but he was certainly a fighter, which is a big part of why Hooker got the attention he did...

Sherman is as likely or not more so to get the Army of the Potomac as Burnside, Hooker, or Meade, and certainly (had he stayed east) would have been a possibility for the Army of Virginia when it was formed in 1862, rather than bringing Pope east after Island Number 10.

Best,

 

[Admiral Halsey]

Potentially; Sherman was appointed full colonel (infantry, RA) in May, 1861 and brigadier general of volunteers in August; he had graduated from West Point in 1840 (sixth in his class) and had 17 years of service when he left in '53, including a brevet for merit during the Mexican War.

Meade graduated from USMA in 1835, nineteenth in his class, had 24 years of service by '61, including a brevet in Mexico; an RA captain (Topographical Engineers) in '61, he was commissioned BG (USV) in August, 1861.

Hooker graduated in 1837, had 20 years of active service, won three brevets in Mexico (captain, major, and lt. colonel) in Mexico, leaving the Army in '53 as a full rank captain; he was commissioned BG (USV) in August, 1861.

Considering that Sherman was entrusted with departmental command in '61, at a time when Hooker was a brigade and then division commander, it is quite possible Sherman could have gotten an AotP division in '61, a corps in '62, and (possibly) an army in 1862-63... Sherman replacing McClellan after Antietam, rather than Burnside, is possible.

Best,

Gotta admit Sherman replacing McClellan after Antietam instead of Burnside would have all sorts of knock on effects for the upcoming Fredericksburg campaign.

 

[TFSmith121]

Certainly would ... another possibility is Sherman

Gotta admit Sherman replacing McClellan after Antietam instead of Burnside would have all sorts of knock on effects for the upcoming Fredericksburg campaign.

Certainly would ... another possibility is Sherman replaces Pope when the Army of Virginia is formed in 1862, before 2nd Manassas; it's not a huge force, and the subordinate commanders are a mixed bag at best, but setting aside the Army of the Potomac formations (including the IX Corps), he would have had more than 45,000 troops, including almost 5,000 cavalry.

Rationalizing the set-up and commanders somewhat, he could have had the historical three corps (with their army-wide, not army-specific, corps numbers):

I Corps (McDowell; was III Corps, Army of Virginia, historically)
1st Division - King
2nd Division - Ricketts
XI Corps (Sigel; was the I Corps, AoV, historically)
1st Division - Schenck
2nd Division - von Steinwehr
3rd Division - Schurz
XII Corps (Banks; was the II Corps, AoV, historically)
1st Division -Williams
2nd Division - Augur, then Greene
Cavalry - three brigades; Bayard's, Buford's, and Beardsley's

The obvious weaknesses are the three corps commanders, as well as King, Schenck, and Schurz.

In a AH where Sherman has the same resources, but can reorganize them (at least at the divisional level) with some flexibility, I could see the following:

I Corps - McDowell
1st Division - Greene (transferred)
2nd Division - Ricketts
3rd Division - Sigel
XII Corps - Banks
1st Division - Williams
2nd Division - Augur
3rd Division - von Steinwehr
Cavalry Division - Bayard

It's still a long way from optimal, but it's certainly a better organization than what Pope had...

The sad thing is that Pope had some capable brigadiers; in McDowell's corps alone, there were Hatch, Patrick, Doubleday, Gibbon, Duryee, and Tower; Banks' corps included Greene, Gordon, and Crawford.

Best,

 

[mattep74]

IF appointed AOP instead of Burnside i think he would try another approach than Fredricksburg. Maybe he would move into Shennondoah valley and destroy it as a base of operations for the CSA 3 years early?

 

[TFSmith121]

The Valley was an important element of

IF appointed AOP instead of Burnside i think he would try another approach than Fredricksburg. Maybe he would move into Shennondoah valley and destroy it as a base of operations for the CSA 3 years early?

The Valley was an important element of the rebel war economy in Virginia, so that's certainly a possibility.

The interesting question in a Sherman replaces McClellan situation in 1862 is how quickly the "hard hand" approach is in place; Sherman is obviously much more of an advocate of total war than McClellan ever was, so that's an indicator.

Interestingly enough, Grant in command the center/western theater by the middle of 1862 and Sherman in the east is not an alternative I've seen explored; pretty interesting potential there...

Best,

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Interestingly enough, Grant in command the center/western theater by the middle of 1862 and Sherman in the east is not an alternative I've seen explored; pretty interesting potential there...

Best,

Still have to base that on enough assumption that Grant does not resign when Halleck comes and assumes command. It was only Sherman in OTL who stopped him after Halleck came.

 

[TFSmith121]

True, but Webster, McPherson, or CF Smith

Still have to base that on enough assumption that Grant does not resign when Halleck comes and assumes command. It was only Sherman in OTL who stopped him after Halleck came.

True, but Webster, McPherson, or CF Smith (if his death has not occurred) might play a similar role; McPherson was a protege, Webster a close advisor, and Smith a mentor - and both Webster and Smith could have told Halleck to get his head on straight about Grant, for different reasons. Smith was old Army to the bone and senior enough to tell Halleck to go fly a kite, and Webster was more than successful in civilian life.

After Henry and Donelson, Grant had proven himself as a hell of a combat commander - Halleck never came close, and one can wonder how much that may have had to do with some of Halleck's pettiness.

Best,

 

[Anaxagoras]

Have to disagree with this; Sherman replaced Anderson at the departmental level (Kentucky/Cumberland) before he was affiliated with Grant - if anything, Sherman's connections with the Ewings in Ohio and Washington, and his solid performance at Bull Run, along with his obvious loyalty (made clear with the LSU incident) made clear he was a fast burner.

And when he replaced Anderson, he had a complete nervous breakdown and had to be removed from command and taken off active duty. The newspapers reported that he was insane and it's possible that he attempted suicide.

It was Grant who gave him another chance.

 

[TFSmith121]

And the reality of that situation seems to vary

And when he replaced Anderson, he had a complete nervous breakdown and had to be removed from command and taken off active duty. The newspapers reported that he was insane and it's possible that he attempted suicide.

It was Grant who gave him another chance.

And the reality of that situation, much like the reports of Grant's drinking, seem to vary with the perspective of those telling the tale; it's not like Sherman, either directly or because of his brother John and the Ewings, did not have enemies...

In addition, whatever the actual situation was, the differences in command responsibility between what amounts to being a theater commander - in a theater which is still mobilizing and hardly the primary focus of the war effort in 1861 - and being a formation or even a corps commander in an army in a theater that is the focus of the war effort in the autumn of 1861 would seem a somewhat different level of pressure.

Best,