WI: NATO adopt the .280 British

[Undeadmuffin]

The two cartridge that was tested was the overpowered 7.62x51 or the intermediate 7x43 (.280 british). US pointed that the british 7x43 was underpowered and the british that the 7.62 was too much, but because US was the main producer for NATO and desire for uniformity from Churchil the 7.62 was chose. The U.S. eventuatly changed from the 7.62 to the 5.56 due to Vietnam and change in the weaponry and military mentality.

So, what if U.S. decide to suck up their national pride and accept the intermediate cartridge as NATO standart ?

 

[Curiousone]

The two cartridge that was tested was the overpowered 7.62x51 or the intermediate 7x43 (.280 british). US pointed that the british 7x43 was underpowered and the british that the 7.62 was too much, but because US was the main producer for NATO and desire for uniformity from Churchil the 7.62 was chose. The U.S. eventuatly changed from the 7.62 to the 5.56 due to Vietnam and change in the weaponry and military mentality.

So, what if U.S. decide to suck up their national pride and accept the intermediate cartridge as NATO standart ?

I think it's a better round & on just as a weapon design I'm a fan of the EM-2 which was part of the push for using it.. but I'm not too sure it changes much as things went.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

I think it's a better round & on just as a weapon design I'm a fan of the EM-2 which was part of the push for using it.. but I'm not too sure it changes much as things went.

Yeah it was also the (hidden) reason why i started this thread
I like the EM 2 design and i think that UK and Canada would have been cooler with this weapon. But another cartridge could also change the fn herstal and colt weapon design.

 

[Simon]

Considering how the first attempt at a bullpup rifle turned out with the SA80, although to be fair the modified A2 version is actually pretty good, I'm somewhat sceptical of the EM-2. Best bet I think would be the .280 British fired from a FN FAL. IIRC when the negotiations were taking place to decide the new calibre the US Army had commissioned an internal report which came to the conclusion that the smaller bullet was better, senior officers however promptly ignored it and pushed for the 7.62x51 instead. Possibly have the report leak so that the British can point to the fact that even the American's own experts agree with them? Probably see the earlier development of the designated marksman idea like the Soviets did with the Dragunov SVD, perhaps in part to give them a longer range punch and in part to help placate the traditionalists.

 

[Sior]

Considering how the first attempt at a bullpup rifle turned out with the SA80, although to be fair the modified A2 version is actually pretty good, I'm somewhat sceptical of the EM-2. Best bet I think would be the .280 British fired from a FN FAL. IIRC when the negotiations were taking place to decide the new calibre the US Army had commissioned an internal report which came to the conclusion that the smaller bullet was better, senior officers however promptly ignored it and pushed for the 7.62x51 instead. Possibly have the report leak so that the British can point to the fact that even the American's own experts agree with them? Probably see the earlier development of the designated marksman idea like the Soviets did with the Dragunov SVD, perhaps in part to give them a longer range punch and in part to help placate the traditionalists.

The SA80 was an attempt to use a design optimised for the 7x43 to used the inferior 5.56. The EM2 was a very reliable weapon, my Father in law an instructor at Sandhurst was one of those testing them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtjVf724G7w

 

[Richard V]

The SA80 was an attempt to use a design optimised for the 7x43 to used the inferior 5.56. The EM2 was a very reliable weapon, my Father in law an instructor at Sandhurst was one of those testing them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtjVf724G7w

SA80 was never designed around anything but 5.56 Nato. It's also a rip-off of the AR-18, with some cost cutting changes. The latter's designer George Sullivan said one look at the single main spring system and he knew the SA80 wont work because his design required the dual springs for reliability. If only they had asked him why it was designed the way it was to begin with.

 

[MattII]

Actually, it was originally designed around the 4.85x49mm cartridge which had lower power than the 5.56x45mm cartridge later selected.

 

[sonofpegasus]

The Rifle No 9 (Em2) was actualy officialy adopted by the British Army under the Labour Goverment, If the Tories had not Won and Churchill returned as PM, then maybe the UK, Canada and Belguim stick with the 0.280 British round. Canada and Belguim would probably used the FM rifles (from which the 7,62 FAL was developed). One result might have been Stoner using the .280 round calibre of the 0.56mm. IMHO a much better result all round.

 

[MattII]

Just had a look at the stats and, well, if the EM-2 gets in the Soviets are going to have some serious issues, because compared to the AK-47 the EM-2 has a higher muzzle velocity, and thus longer effective range (probably mostly thanks to the extra 200+ mm of barrel, which brings it to, all of about 10 mm longer than the AK-47). Now compare it to the M1, or even the M14, and it'll just blow them away.

 

[Landshark]

Considering how the first attempt at a bullpup rifle turned out with the SA80, although to be fair the modified A2 version is actually pretty good, I'm somewhat sceptical of the EM-2.

The SA80 was predated by the FAMAS, Steyr AUG and of course the EM2 so it's hardly the first attempt at a bullpup. Also the SA80 uses a completely different action from the EM2.

 

[Drunken_Soviet]

The SA80 was predated by the FAMAS, Steyr AUG and of course the EM2 so it's hardly the first attempt at a bullpup. Also the SA80 uses a completely different action from the EM2.

Don't forget about the USSR which also had designs for a Bullpup assault rifle

http://historicalfirearms.tumblr.co...obov-the-bullpup-rifle-and-the-tkb-022-by-the



The first of which was the TKB-408

Which lost out to the AK-47.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

OMG ! A bullpup world ! Even if dont know if the TKB-022 would have been chosen, this is an interesting possibility. Adopting a intermediate cartrige and bullpup design earlier could bring some nice change in the weapon and military design.

 

[BELFAST]

With the .280 round Nato forces would have better stopping power than the 5.56mm.

 

[Landshark]

Just had a look at the stats and, well, if the EM-2 gets in the Soviets are going to have some serious issues, because compared to the AK-47 the EM-2 has a higher muzzle velocity, and thus longer effective range (probably mostly thanks to the extra 200+ mm of barrel, which brings it to, all of about 10 mm longer than the AK-47). Now compare it to the M1, or even the M14, and it'll just blow them away.

A possible knock on effect could be that the Soviets change calibres in 1957. Perhaps Korobov's TKB-517 get's selected in a 6mm + calibre?

 

[mudhead]

An armoury sergeant once told me that the EM-2 was reliable, accurate, and easy to strip and clean - but not so easy to reassemble. He got this from his father, who'd been in a similar position post-war.

May have been a problem with a conscript army, as we had then.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

An armoury sergeant once told me that the EM-2 was reliable, accurate, and easy to strip and clean - but not so easy to reassemble. He got this from his father, who'd been in a similar position post-war.

May have been a problem with a conscript army, as we had then.

Well the em-2 could have been reserved to professional army and a .280 fn fal for the conscript.

 

[perfectgeneral]

I just watched a two minute Youtube on reassembling an EM-2. Starts at 5:15 an takes a few educational breaks on the way. I feel sure I could do it and it requires no tools. The only way it could be improved would be a less expensive method of manufacture. Lots of milling out. That comes with later marks, I suppose.

I would like to see the FN FAL carbine bullpup in .280 stripped and reassembled to compare.
The FN FAL Bullpup in .280 British:
picture
official report
debate

 

[burtledog]

.280

Could you imagine the AR-10 with a 7 X 43 round? Or the FNFAL able to be controlled on full auto? Even the M-14 would be a much better weapon in that round.
No 5.56 silliness as an over reaction.

 

[MattII]

Why bother with the AR-10, it's about 150mm longer than the EM-2 and yet has a barrel about 100mm shorter. No, if they can get the .280 in, then the EM-2 is coming along as baggage, and it's a more compact weapon, and comes on the scene 5 years earlier too.

 

[Russell]

Why bother with the AR-10, it's about 150mm longer than the EM-2 and yet has a barrel about 100mm shorter. No, if they can get the .280 in, then the EM-2 is coming along as baggage, and it's a more compact weapon, and comes on the scene 5 years earlier too.

Because:

A. This is the US here. If it isn’t made in America, then it probably isn't going to be used by US troops.

B. The Em-2 is a bullpup. If you speak to some people in the US military about bullpups you would think that any such adoption would automatically undermine the constitution of the United States.

Russell