WI: Japanese conduct in WW2 honourable?

Hi All,

What would be the post war effects be of Japan not having committed any war crimes in WW2? I'm not sure how to create the POD, maybe more of an emphasis in the Bushido code of honourable treatment of prisoners or combatants, but I'm interested in the perceptions of Japan in the post war world.

This butterflies away the massacre of Nanking and the widespread abominable treatment of Prisoners of War. However the scenario still assumes Japan begins the war in China and declares war on the USA.
 
The US Cold War biological weapons program's early development might be slowed without the research data provided by Unit 731's atrocities in Manchuria.
 
Hi All,

What would be the post war effects be of Japan not having committed any war crimes in WW2? I'm not sure how to create the POD, maybe more of an emphasis in the Bushido code of honourable treatment of prisoners or combatants, but I'm interested in the perceptions of Japan in the post war world.

This butterflies away the massacre of Nanking and the widespread abominable treatment of Prisoners of War. However the scenario still assumes Japan begins the war in China and declares war on the USA.

This ought to be in ASB. Japanese culture at the time taught that non-Japanese were subhuman. You'd have to change their entire culture, at which point they'd likely not start the war in the first place. I don't think it's possible for them to NOT commit horrific acts of evil.
 

Flubber

Banned
This ought to be in ASB. Japanese culture at the time taught that non-Japanese were subhuman.


Nice Klan hood. Can you put it in the dryer or do you have to hang it out to dry?

You'd have to change their entire culture, at which point they'd likely not start the war in the first place. I don't think it's possible for them to NOT commit horrific acts of evil.

The Japanese military in the Russo-Japanese War and World War 1 was scrupulous in it's behavior.
 
This ought to be in ASB. Japanese culture at the time taught that non-Japanese were subhuman. You'd have to change their entire culture, at which point they'd likely not start the war in the first place. I don't think it's possible for them to NOT commit horrific acts of evil.

There was an interesting story here on AH that revolved around the US creating a 'special relationship' with Japan (might be 'Americas's Manifest destiny by Jim Smitty). It is ASB, but the situation isn't too wild for the US to make a strong relationship with Japan and have an alternate WW2 where Japan takes on more Americanized forms of warfare that involve more humane treatment of people.

The US, at least in the mid 1900's, tends to treat other countries militaries fairly well so long as they don't treat us poorly. Obviously, the US was not so nice before the 1910's when it came to native Americans.
 
Nice Klan hood. Can you put it in the dryer or do you have to hang it out to dry?



The Japanese military in the Russo-Japanese War and World War 1 was scrupulous in it's behavior.

Piss off. Actually, rather than a hood I like to wear the flayed skin of morons.

WWI and the Russo-Japanese War? Well, they weren't exactly running rampant throughout Asia and the Pacific at that time with hundreds of millions at their feet, were they? Different circumstances. Despite your pathetic comments, you still haven't disproved that at the time they regarded non-Japanese as subhuman. It's well documented and well known.
 
There was an interesting story here on AH that revolved around the US creating a 'special relationship' with Japan (might be 'Americas's Manifest destiny by Jim Smitty). It is ASB, but the situation isn't too wild for the US to make a strong relationship with Japan and have an alternate WW2 where Japan takes on more Americanized forms of warfare that involve more humane treatment of people.

The US, at least in the mid 1900's, tends to treat other countries militaries fairly well so long as they don't treat us poorly. Obviously, the US was not so nice before the 1910's when it came to native Americans.

If Japan had been closely aligned with the United States, I highly doubt they would have attacked Manchuria or invaded China to begin with. Treating people as human rather than vermin would mean the militarists never dominated their country. It's unfortunate that the Japanese officer corps didn't have more men like Admiral Yamamoto.

As for the Native Americans, it's a matter of two completely incompatible socioeconomic systems trying to coexist in the same place, one will inevitably be slaughtered
 
If Japan had been closely aligned with the United States, I highly doubt they would have attacked Manchuria or invaded China to begin with. Treating people as human rather than vermin would mean the militarists never dominated their country. It's unfortunate that the Japanese officer corps didn't have more men like Admiral Yamamoto.

As for the Native Americans, it's a matter of two completely incompatible socioeconomic systems trying to coexist in the same place, one will inevitably be slaughtered

Yeah, it would be a very different world. One I am considering for my potential TL where the US ends up staying closer to Britain well into the 1800's and only pulls away in the 1830's in a mildly peaceful manner (basically a limited war). Native American's still get the short end of the stick in some ways but also some better treatment in others (larger, more autonomous territories in the west). Its a mixed bag and not terribly different from OTL.

Japan ends up developing a special relationship with the US, who keeps good trade in order while also preventing the military caste from rising too strongly.
 
The Japanese military in the Russo-Japanese War and World War 1 was scrupulous in it's behavior.

In WWI the survival rate of prisoners of the Japanese was about 98% while in WWII the survival rate was closer to about 60 to 70%. In the Russo/Japanese war there the instances of Japanese surrendering to the Russians was no different to what you would expect in a European war. The idea of never surrendering and treating people who had surrendered as less than human was an invention of the 1920s.
 
IMO if the Japanese earned and got what they felt their due after WWI, they wouldn't have felt quite so dismissed by the Western imperialist powers they were striving to emulate that they rejected the Geneva Convention from the 1930's on that they honored during the Russo-Japanese War and WWI.

The biggest problem was how the IJA harshly emphasized obedience in the ranks but allowed all manner of free-range stupidities in the officer corps that should have gotten them court-martialed and hanged such as the Marco Polo bridge Incident or the bombing of the USS Panay.

For the Japanese government to bring the officers to heel needed to start in the 1920's and you needed a confident powerful government dedicated to the rule of law. Many IOTL were, but were intimidated by death threats or imprisoned.

LSS- IF the Japanese were treated with respect at Versailles and the Taisho democracy were a bit more robust- decided to emulate the British instead of Prussian parliamentary tradition, and had a little better luck, then the Japanese military of the 1930's committing atrocities would be butterflied.
 
This ought to be in ASB. Japanese culture at the time taught that non-Japanese were subhuman. You'd have to change their entire culture, at which point they'd likely not start the war in the first place. I don't think it's possible for them to NOT commit horrific acts of evil.

While you are not wrong that this is unlikely your reasoning is absurd.
 
The problem with this is that in order to get a better conduct from Japanese troops you need to change the very government the runs the nation which itself renders the whole possibly of war moot.

It's basically the same question of asking if it's possible to not have any of the violent and genocidal behavior that occurred on the eastern front while still keeping the nazi's in charge. The very type of governments in power that are interested in military expansion and behavior are also going to possess a very specific type of mentality in regards to both prisoners and conquest.
 
Prevent the adoption of Bushido.

The Bushido code was emphasized after WWI starting in the 1920s because the rapidly expanding military wanted a way to maintain discipline. Have the Japanese somehow Grab Manchuria DURING World War I and hold on to Tsingtao, so the military is seen as "good enough" rather than "cheated" like the perception was OTL due to the minimal amount of gains for Japan. Japan then get concessions out of China and a large sphere of influence without a war, but rather a large area for neutral production and raw material extraction. Japan grabs Indochina and Indonesia right after the fall of France, and the USA declares war.

That is the best bet IMO.
 
Prevent the adoption of Bushido.

The Bushido code was emphasized after WWI starting in the 1920s because the rapidly expanding military wanted a way to maintain discipline. Have the Japanese somehow Grab Manchuria DURING World War I and hold on to Tsingtao, so the military is seen as "good enough" rather than "cheated" like the perception was OTL due to the minimal amount of gains for Japan. Japan then get concessions out of China and a large sphere of influence without a war, but rather a large area for neutral production and raw material extraction. Japan grabs Indochina and Indonesia right after the fall of France, and the USA declares war.

That is the best bet IMO.

actually the Japanese militarists that took control of the country didn't even really practice bushido but some bastardized version they created/made up just so they could justify all the militarism, war, and brutal behavior.
 
actually the Japanese militarists that took control of the country didn't even really practice bushido but some bastardized version they created/made up just so they could justify all the militarism, war, and brutal behavior.

The argument about whether Bushido was corrupted, invented wholesale or just overemphasized by the Japanese army is a long and dividing one.
 
Piss off. Actually, rather than a hood I like to wear the flayed skin of morons.

WWI and the Russo-Japanese War? Well, they weren't exactly running rampant throughout Asia and the Pacific at that time with hundreds of millions at their feet, were they? Different circumstances. Despite your pathetic comments, you still haven't disproved that at the time they regarded non-Japanese as subhuman. It's well documented and well known.
Dude, that kind of thing leads to people getting kicked and banned in these parts.

Second, you aren't really adding anything to the discussion by just repeating some lines out of OTL historybooks. The OP is clearly trying to ask how the Japanese can be made to behave better.

I would say that the atrocities were brought on not mainly by cultural factors but by the situation that Japan found itself in in trying to assert itself in East Asia. It tried to be a hegemon; the subject countries didn't like Japan acting like a hegemon; they resisted; Japan started killing people in gruesome ways. China's population, unlike Korea or Taiwan, was huge and couldn't be controlled easily and this led to massive frustration on the part of the Imperial Japanese Army, so they thought that terror and killing to lead to victory; this was similar to the actions of the Mongol and Manchu armies of antiquity whose success would create powerful Chinese dynasties. The fact that the Japanese were a rather insular, self-righteous people at the time didn't help.

Now there are a couple things to take note of regarding the Japanese and China.
- though the Japanese educational and military institutions taught fervent nationalism and the need to be able to slaughter enemies, they did not see the Chinese as subhuman the way the Germans did the Slavs. Indeed, the whole war with China IOTL was painted as an operation to defeat the KMT warlords and restore order to China, not to make it Japanese.
- Classical Chinese culture enjoyed inherent prestige in Japan. Japanese students had to learn Confucian values, ancient Chinese language, and history. Many of the Japanese officers who would later commit war crimes were themselves educated like this. They saw their own country as the ideal representation of Sinosphereic culture and believed it was natural that, being more advanced than China, should take the responsibility of modernizing it as a patron state.

Of course, ideals and reality are two different things. The Japanese were certainly imperialists like any other, this is not to be forgotten. However, the attitude is still important - Japanese did not want to exterminate the Chinese or destroy China even if their actions, as seen by the Chinese themselves, would appear to threaten to do so. It was unlike the German fantasy to enslave the Slavs, raze Leningrad, and make a lake of Moscow. What Japan probably wanted was to be a modern day Mongol or Manchu invader, it wanted to conquer the center of civilization and create its own empire there.

Opposing this hairbrained dream was the unstable but dominant KMT in China. From 1911 to 1930 or so, China was split up among warlords who all wanted to rule the country. The fall of the Manchu dynasty and various modernization movements took China in a different direction than Japan - they wanted a republic, not a new monarchy, whereas Japan had renewed its 2000 year-old dynasty with the intent of strengthening the solidity of the country as it entered the world stage. So in this there were differences in thought.

More importantly, the actual interests Japan had in China were not altruistic but imperialistic. Japan wanted China's resources. It wanted to split off as much of the former Manchu territory as it could to make China weaker and more controllable. It wanted the local governments (yes, multiples) to listen to its orders. During the warlord era, Japan was supporting various warlords such as Yan Xishan and Zhang Zuolin against each other. When Zhang Zuolin became too powerful, the Japanese had him killed and this led to the takeover of Manchuria.

When the KMT was consolidating its power and annihilating the CCP in Jiangxi and on the Long March routes, the Japanese were concerned that the KMT was unifying China, and this China was not going to be one that would listen to orders. The Xi'an Incident whereby Chiang Kai-shek agreed to make peace with the CCP was the last straw and a year later Japan invaded. Now one direct cause of the invasion and brutality as it happened seems to have been the fact that China was finally unifying and so had to be beat down to for Japan to have a chance at hegemony. The subsequent brutal behavior was also conducted in desperation to control the angry Chinese population that found itself united in fury against Japan.

So for Japanese troops not to act brutally, you could change the evolution of Chinese politics. One might
- not have the Japanese kill Zhang Zuolin, as a result of them having a better relationship. When Japan invades, it will be to help Zhang, not to annex the country.

- have Chiang Kai-shek be killed in the Xi'an incident, whether by design (Mao really wanted him dead) or by accident in the confusion. This could lead to complete fragmentation of the KMT into a renewed warlord period. Japan would not have to face a single unified army in its invasion, and its troops and commanders would have an easier time facing the enemy and negotiating with warlords one at a time. However, this would still lead to a Vietnam-like scenario, even if there would not be as many horrendous atrocities committed by Japanese. In fact, the Japanese might see the warlords working for them commit warcrimes and feel the need not to act that way.

- Have the USSR be more of a threat to China and Japan. This could be interesting. Suppose that the Bolsheviks get lucky in the Russian civil war and have extra energy and troops left over in the Far East. They want to curb Japan's advances so they decide to take Manchuria (at the same time they can weed out those pesky White Russian emigres). Chinese warlords and Japan alike are naturally not down with this and the Sino-Soviet war begins. The Japanese help Zhang Zuolin in Manchuria and other warlords against underground Communist revolts. This is all happening in the mid or late-1920s. The Soviet Union ships arms and supplies through Chinese Turkestan to CCP insurgents fighting various KMT-aligned warlords and Zhang's Fengtian clique. Japan is seen by the KMT, Zhang, and many nationalist Chinese as an ally against Russia. Japan does not feel as threatened by the prospect of a unified Nationalist Chinese state as it does by an inevitably hostile Soviet China, so an alliance grows.
While I like this scenario, it has a major problem, namely, it does not allow for a war with the USA as the OP requests, nor does Japan do the invading of China.

Therefore, I would suggest we take the first and last scenarios and combine them, giving both a solid anti-Communist Fengtian ally to Japan and making the KMT go full commie and become a true Soviet ally, scaring the Japanese into having no trouble backing Zhang all the way. Japan, using Fengtian Manchuria as a base, invades China much as it did in OTL, though the invasion is not as ambitious because Japan needs to keep an eye on Russia. The USA creates an embargo and in a couple years something like Pearl Harbor happens. Because Japan still sees its arch enemy as Russia and wants a negotiated settlement to the war with America, it refrains from doing terrible things to POWs and Japanese generals create more humane rules of engagement. After all they are in China to help the anti-Communist Fengtian unify China, not conquer the place. Some My Lai-style killings happen in China and elsewhere, but nothing like Nanjing or Unit 731 is undertaken. Japan still loses the war, although perhaps in better condition, and China is a total mess as Fengtian and CCP/KMT forces duke it out.

There, no atrocities.
 
If Japan had been closely aligned with the United States, I highly doubt they would have attacked Manchuria or invaded China to begin with. Treating people as human rather than vermin would mean the militarists never dominated their country. It's unfortunate that the Japanese officer corps didn't have more men like Admiral Yamamoto.

Japan in WW1 actually had a reputation for good treatment of POWs and so forth. It's really in the war in China that things spiralled into inhumanity

Edit: LeoXiao has explained this in great detail and with far more erudition than I could manage
 
Hi All,

What would be the post war effects be of Japan not having committed any war crimes in WW2? I'm not sure how to create the POD, maybe more of an emphasis in the Bushido code of honourable treatment of prisoners or combatants, but I'm interested in the perceptions of Japan in the post war world.

There is no such thing as a definitive "Bushido code" in the first place, and certainly no definitive "Bushido code of the honourable treatment of prisoners", considering prisoners in Medieval Japan were generally "traitors" (read "Rival Clan") who deserved "punishment" (read "we are at war with them") for "breaking the law" (read "we want their land and titles").
 
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