WI: Confederate Generals turning mercenaries after Civil War

[Wolfpaw]

First of all, I'M NOT A TROLL! . . . Don't be lazy and take the easy way out by calling people names.

You've got it. First, I'm going to prove how you are being a troll.

Jefferson Davis, the ex-President of the Confederacy, was allegedly caught in
a dress, while trying to flee the country after the Civil War. If the federal government had taken a harsher stance, then the Civil War probably would have started up again because Lee wanted generous terms of surrender. Either that, or there probably would have been an insurgency.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. At all.

I didn't say he was. I said he was allegedly caught in a dress. Look it up if you don't believe me. It was in the report of a Union soldier. The charge, if real, is highly controversial even today. As for what I said after that, Lee asked Grant for generous terms so his men could take their horses, and rifles, and go home. Grant had to relay the request to Lincoln. Lincoln agreed. Two weeks after Lee's surrender to Grant, Joseph Johnston, the
commander of Confederate troops in North Carolina, asked for the same terms that Grant gave Lee. Lincoln didn't want to do it this time. He was advised to have harsher terms for Johnston and his men. Grant prevailed upon Lincoln to give the same terms to Johnston. There was a concern that
the war could flare up again at any minute. Lincoln finally agreed. Nothing
was settled prior to Johnston's surrender. I'm really not a Civil War buff.

Nor does this.

What I said is true. If you, or Typo, don't believe me, look it up.

I would if A) I gave a fig about what Jeff Davis was wearing when he got captured, or B) it had anything remotely to do with this thread's topic.

I'm not trying to derail Typo's.

Well, your first post had nothing to do with the thread and was phrased in a way that implied you wanted somebody to challenge you on whether or not Jeff Davis was a crinoline-wearing coward, presumably so you could score internet points by talking about that Union soldier's report.

Even if we ignore the off-topic and likely baited nature of your first post, your second post is basically guilty of the exact same thing. There is a word for somebody who contributes nothing to a thread and/or posts things that are completely off topic. That word is "troll."

Second, I'll actually add to this thread.

There's something dicey about employing ex-Confederates in Europe, and a lot of that stemmed from the fact that the cause they had fought for was directly associated with supporting slavery.

That means that if Confederate officers do find work in Europe (Prussia is the most likely employer, though most would probably go to Latin American/Africa [the Boers, anybody ]), it'll be more of a background role, like a place on the General Staff or in the Quartermaster Corps. I mean, for God's sake, we can't have a bloody American leading a European army, can we?

 

[AmIndHistoryAuthor]

Would Forest Flee?

If Forest flees, who is most likely to become the head of the KKK? George Gordon?

Any others whose flight would be beneficial to the minority population and general peace in the southern states?

(Yes, I've heard the argument Forest "quit the Klan because it got too extreme." I don't buy it.)

 

[imperialaquila]

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There's something dicey about employing ex-Confederates in Europe, and a lot of that stemmed from the fact that the cause they had fought for was directly associated with supporting slavery.

That means that if Confederate officers [I]do [/I]find work in Europe (Prussia is the most likely employer, though most would probably go to Latin American/Africa [the Boers, anybody ]), it'll be more of a background role, like a place on the General Staff or in the Quartermaster Corps. I mean, for God's sake, we can't have a bloody American leading a European army, can we?
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Agreed. IMO, they'd probably be found more in Latin America. There's always a few wars around down there, so they will find work. The Middle East is a possibility. The Boers are just getting established about now, so I don't think they'd attract many Rebel expats. Maybe a few cavalry officers could end up there.

IMO, most of them would end up in Latin America or the Middle East. Wherever there are wars and rulers trying to modernize their militaries.

 

[wormyguy]

Japan is also a possibility after the Meiji Restoration, though as advisers rather than commanders. China is as well, although that carries a rather high risk of being executed on one of the emperor's fickle days.

 

[Atreus]

That means that if Confederate officers do find work in Europe (Prussia is the most likely employer, though most would probably go to Latin American/Africa [the Boers, anybody ]), it'll be more of a background role, like a place on the General Staff or in the Quartermaster Corps. I mean, for God's sake, we can't have a bloody American leading a European army, can we?
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Not quite sure how you come by this. The Prussians have a pretty well functioning, modern military at this time, and I can't think of any foreign advisors that they employed in any position of authority in the 19th century. Maybe a few "consultants" on the modern nature of the Civil War, but then again it was sort of glossed over by european staffs IOTL. Honestly, the potential pool of jobs in europe is pretty slim. Britain and France are out, though i could see a few getting involved in the colonial expansion (for france in particular). Its a bit late to get in on italian unification. spain is going through a prolonged rough patch, but I don't see american soldiers being terribly popular there. Austria... doesn't really seem a good fit. Maybe a few wind up in minor german states, or perhaps the balkans. Which leaves... Russia and the Ottomans, two states with a long history of hiring foreign professional soldiers and trying to keep abreast of developments in modern warfare.

 

[Dave Howery]

According to my Time/Life collection on the ACW, 36 ex-officers from both the Union and the CSA did serve in the Egyptian army for a short time, including 6 former generals. All but one went home in less than a year, finding the Egyptian army too riddled with corruption to work well. A major defeat of the Egyptians by 'Abyssinians' confirmed it.
That said, just why would most places in Europe want to hire American officers? Most of them had perfectly good modern armies already. I suppose if there were a nation that was a long ways behind the others and looking to 'catch up', they might look at it. But Prussia? No...

 

[Wolfpaw]

Maybe a few "consultants" on the modern nature of the Civil War, but then again it was sort of glossed over by european staffs IOTL.

That's mostly what I meant. The Prussians obviously had the best GS in Europe, but they were one of the few countries to actually pay actualy attention to the military developments/advances/innovations of the Civil War, though even this was scant.

I didn't mean some ex-planter in snazzy buttons would take the place of some junker with even snazzier buttons, I just meant that the Germans might put an ex-Confed or two on the payroll to just sort of hang around Berlin and get called into HQ once in a while to offer opinions on things, especially any cavalrymen.

Russia and the Ottomans, two states with a long history of hiring foreign professional soldiers and trying to keep abreast of developments in modern warfare.

Eh, dicey on both counts. Russia maybe, but remember that they were probably the only Great Power that supported the Union, not to mention that they were viewed as villains by basically...everybody from the Crimean War right up until they started getting chummy with France, and even then basically nobody else was all that comfortable with them. Confederates might have some reservations about serving in armies that were commonly referred to as "Asiatic hordes."

The Ottomans...eh, perhaps, though I can't really see why. There were always enough Europeans to fill those "looking for advisor" roles and they would probably muscle out any Confederate competition unless the person had a huge name like Lee or something.

I think serving in European colonial exploits would be more likely, mostly in Africa and the Middle East. I maintain that the fledgling Balkans pose a potential (and probably only real) chance in Europe. But yeah, if they're going anywhere, most are going to head down south to muck about in Latin America.

Though I just thought of something. I don't believe the Qajars had much of a military for much of the 1800s. Perhaps some Naser al-Din visits Europe earlier and gets it in his head to really bring Persia up to speed, or decides to form his own cavalry brigade without Russian influence.

"Servants of the Peacock Throne: The Shah's Southern Soldiers and the Forging of Modern Persia"

...now there's a TL I would read!

 

[NothingNow]

That means that if Confederate officers do find work in Europe (Prussia is the most likely employer, though most would probably go to Latin American/Africa [the Boers, anybody ]), it'll be more of a background role, like a place on the General Staff or in the Quartermaster Corps. I mean, for God's sake, we can't have a bloody American leading a European army, can we?

The French could have used a Confederate general as a Quartermaster-General or what not. they'd have had a better chance in 1871 if they had Cheese, Jerky, and some Hardtack instead of what they had previously.

 

[Wolfpaw]

According to my Time/Life collection on the ACW, 36 ex-officers from both the Union and the CSA did serve in the Egyptian army for a short time, including 6 former generals.

Could you provide names and a bit of background on the former CS generals and/or any other officers like colonels and majors that went to Egypt? I find this all very interesting!

The they'd have had a better chance in 1871 if they had Cheese . . .

Are you saying that at one point the French weren't eating cheese? Sweet Lord!

 

[Cook]

Perhaps if Longstreet had been bitter about Johnson’s refusal to grant him a pardon he may have gone abroad, but he seems to have been too loyal to his country.

His continued service his country after the war, going so far as joining Grant’s cabinet, seems to have embittered many Southern Partisans towards one of the Confederacies most professional and successful commanders. That includes a few on this site.

If Forest flees, who is most likely to become the head of the KKK? George Gordon?

Any others whose flight would be beneficial to the minority population and general peace in the southern states?

(Yes, I've heard the argument Forest "quit the Klan because it got too extreme." I don't buy it.)

Wouldn’t events have been nicer if he’d fled instead of founding the Klan, sigh.

Jefferson Davis, the ex-President of the Confederacy, was allegedly caught in a dress, while trying to flee the country after the Civil War.

Ignore him, he's a troll.

Jefferson Davis seized a shawl to protect against the cold when fleeing the Union troops and had it wrapped around his shoulders when captured. The Union soldiers started the amusing rumour that he’d been wearing a dress. It matches the rumour that Lincoln sneaked into Washington wearing a dress.

When he was imprisoned in Fort Monroe Davis was shackled in his cell and objected to being treated “like a nigger”. The Irony of that seems to have totally escaped him.

Okay, let’s move on.

 

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

Wouldn’t events have been nicer if he’d fled instead of founding the Klan, sigh.

He didn't form the clan, that was a group of confederate veterans. Forrest joined latter.

And if he didn't join, there were others that could have become the first Grand wizards.
and they could have been better or worst than him.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Apparantly quite a few senior Confederate Generals were offered spots in foreign armies after 1865. Bureaugard was offered to head the armies of Romania and Egypt. Alexander Porter (artillery chief) thought about the Brazilian army. There are several more I can't remember off the top of my head.

What if the federal government takes a harsher stance against the ex-officers and more of them go abroad to serve different countries? Could some of them not only end up being in "second-rate" armies but end up in a first-rate armed forces of a great power like Prussia or France?

Over 100 Confederate (and Union!) officers served in Egypt, plus a number of others. I don't see why a Great Power would have any need for them or would want them - at best, maybe Britain due to greater ease of integration. But there will be opprobrium attached if they had owned slaves...

I don't see the USA being harsher to officers - you'd really need a different US or a much worse civil war.

 

[Cook]

He didn't form the clan, that was a group of confederate veterans. Forrest joined latter.

And if he didn't join, there were others that could have become the first Grand wizards.
and they could have been better or worst than him.

I stand corrected, I’d always thought he’d been the founder.


The statement then becomes, wouldn’t it have been nicer if they’d chosen exile instead…

 

[NothingNow]

Are you saying that at one point the French weren't eating cheese? Sweet Lord!

They Had giant pots for boiling beef instead. There are many problems with the "Boiled Beef" method of Quartermastery. Chief among them is how Long it takes to Heat up the Water and then to cook the meat is longer still, and one can be easily outmaneuvered in that time. Having Cheese and Sausage or Jerky with some Hard-tack works much better, since the Cheese can hopefully make the Hard-tack more palatable.

 

[Wolfpaw]

According to my Time/Life collection on the ACW, 36 ex-officers from both the Union and the CSA did serve in the Egyptian army for a short time, including 6 former generals.

Over 100 Confederate (and Union!) officers served in Egypt, plus a number of others.

Again, since I find this subject very interesting, could anyone please provide me with a short list of some of the more prominent Confederates that went to Egypt? I'd be very greatful!

 

[Atreus]

Again, since I find this subject very interesting, could anyone please provide me with a short list of some of the more prominent Confederates that went to Egypt? I'd be very greatful!

It was nobody terribly important, to be honest. The first was Colonel Thaddeus Mott; the highest ranking northerner and southerner were Charles P. Stone and William Loring, respectively. The rest, off the top of my head, were a fairly undistinguished and anonymous group, although there were four other generals present.