WI: Atomic Bombing on German cities?

[comrade cat]

At 1:50, you can see the troops get out of their trenches and start heading towards the detonation

Reminds me of a cracked.com article about nuclear disasters that I read years ago.

Back in the 1950s, there were basically "Alright guys, now charge at that nuclear blast, and see what happen."

In Vegas, nuclear blast from tests at the distance even became some sort of tourist attraction for a while. It was a wild time for nuclear energy/power as a whole.

 

[The_Persian_Cat]

I would argue that you couldn't build the same propaganda around the use of atomic weapons if you used them on Germany, and they'd end up being viewed as just "big bombs".

This is an interesting idea to me.
A major difference between bombing Germany and Japan is that Germany was already being invaded. In Japan, the bombs were deployed to prevent the need for an invasion. So if the bombs were deployed to support an invasion, they might just be viewed as another weapon for tactical use on the battlefield. Maybe MacArthur's perspective during the Korean War -- that the same restrictions generally applied to atomic weapons as conventional weapons -- would be a more popular one (at least until the effects of nuclear fallout were better understood, the nuclear arms race was well under way, and the risk of nuclear annihilation became more apparent).

 

[Post]

Hitler died on 30 April, but Germany did not surrender until 7 May.

Which was mostly because Dönitz wanted to surrender as many forces as he could to the Western allies. Forces in the Netherlands and Denmark surrendered (on his orders) on may the 4th, the result of negotiations on may the 3rd. Forces in Bavaria and South Germany surrendered the 5th of may. After that Eisenhower no longer accepted partial surrenders because of fear the relation with the Soviets would detoriate, and made this clear to Dönitz.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

No one really understood the implications of radioactive fallout in 1945*. U.S. invasions planning for Japan anticipated using, after a third military high value/population center strike with a Bomb, to use up to SEVEN weapons in what amounted to a tactical role directly againt IJA defensive position that would then, literally before the smoke cleared, be attack/occupied/past through by U.S. troops

Not the whole truth....

The two bombs dropped on Japan were airburst to maximise effects AND minimise fallout as the fireball would not touch the ground.

The Trinity test created fallout, as effectively a ground test. The tower was less that the size of the fireball. The remoteness and winds were "supposed" to "minimise" effects.

The scientific community "knew" that the fusion products had to go somewhere. Induced radiation was also studied in Japan effects (eg Aluminium directly below burst had induced radiation!!!).

It is more "radiation dosage" and safety was very "loose". However one department of Manhattan study radiation in animals.

Note, Groves, Oppie and other are wearing shoe covers but not noddy suits and mask.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

Not sure if this will add clarity or opacity to the target conversation.

Back when I was paid to think about these things we worked with a target priority list/s. They varied but generally looked like this:

The bigger issue for US at the time, is getting the weapon accurately that the required destruction is achieved.

Hiroshima aim point was missed by 800ft / 250m, Nagasaki not totally clear and Able test missed by 650m!!! (The target ship was paint ORANGE!!)

For context, 617 Sqn tallboy and grand slam reduced the miss distance from 170 yds to 120 yds dropping from 10,000 or less.

The effects study shows bunkers with reasonable earthen walls had survivors. Concrete structures were very resistant.

An attack on the Hitler Bunker or u-boat pen would be unlikely to succeed.

 

[Bellacinos]

Unless it’s towards the tail end of war where it looks like Germany’s surrender is imminent if the US has the capability of using the atomic bombs on Germany I don’t see why they wouldn’t. The US spent billions on this project, and once word gets out that the US is just chilling on these super knock out weapons while millions die, the pressure would be overwhelming. Would this work, and would they be able to get through Germany air defense is a different story.

For me the justification of the atomic bombs in Japan begins and ends with the fact that 400,000 civilians were dying every month, in Japanese occupied territory circa 1945. The atomic bombs put an end to Japanese bloodshed.

 

[DougM]

It depends on your definition of late in the war.
If it is post D-Day and the Bombs CAN be used vs Japan then 100% they are getting used vs Japan, Post D-Day Japan was the harder nut to crack. Once the Breakout from the beachhead was achieved there was never a chance that the Wallies would lose.
The invasion of Japan (and it would probably have taken at least two landings if mot more) was ALWAYS in doubt and expected to be much worse than D-Day.
If the US is not in a position to drop the Nukes on Japan when they are ready then they probably get held. And assuming the Wallies are in the same locations as OTL anything post Jan 1945 time wise will NOT see the Nukes used in Germany.
The Aircraft needed to drop them (the B-29s) would only be needed in Europe to drop the nukes and that is a bit of a give away and just asking for Germany to intercept them. So not a good idea to use them there.
Also the production of Nuclear weapons was VERY. VERY slow. Only a handfull of bombs would have been built in the first year of production. So why on earth would the US want to use them in Germany when, A) they would be less effective in Europe because of architecture, B) The B-29 infrastructure didn’t exist in Europe, C) Using an obviously different aircraft type to drop them is a dead giveaway what you are doing (after the first anyway) D) Germany has a better chance to intercept the bomber then Japan had so it is more dangerous to use E) you have troops on the ground that may or may not be to close F) You are going to win in Europe within a few months without them G) You are NOT sure you can pull off an invasion of Japan without them H) The Invasion Japan will be higher casualties for US then the continuing fight in Europe will be I) and lastly every bomb you drop on Germany is one less bomb you can drop on Japan and it was Japan that the US REALLY wanted to defeat. As they are the ones that started the war by sneak attacking Peril Harbor.

I cant stress that last point enough. For whatever. Reason the War in Europe tends to be talked about more and has more books and movies made about it. But Dec 7th 1941 a date which will live in infamy was a real thing and it was a huge factor in the minds of those alive at the time. It was almost as if Germany was an afterthought for the US. A kind of “well we have to fight a war vs Japan so while we are at it we may as well stop Germany at the same time” kind of thing.

So from a strategic point of view post D-Day it was not a good use the the very limited Nukes to use them in Europe and post Jan 1945 it was not just not good it was just a BAD strategy call to use them when you still OBVIOUSLY will need them more vs Japan

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

The Japanese-American were NOT uniformly placed into Internment Camps. Those living in Hawaii were not.

INTERNMENT CAMPS IN HAWAI‘I
Source of maps: National Park Service. The NPS makes no warranty, express or implied, related to the accuracy or content of these maps.

Fueled by suspicions of disloyalty, the U.S. government interned 2,270 people of Japanese ancestry in Hawai‘i after the bombing of Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. Military personnel and local authorities collaborated on arrests, confining internees to the following local areas, with most being sent to O‘ahu’s U.S. Immigration station before being transferred to internment camps on the mainland.

O‘ahu
Honouliuli Internment Camp
Located in the Honouliuli Gulch, 160 acres in the west of Waipahu, the Honouliuli Internment Camp became the largest prisoner of war camp in Hawai‘i by March 1943, holding approximately 320 internees and 4,000 individuals from Japan, Okinawa, Taiwan, Korea and Italy. It was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 2012

 

[CalBear]

INTERNMENT CAMPS IN HAWAI‘I
Source of maps: National Park Service. The NPS makes no warranty, express or implied, related to the accuracy or content of these maps.

Fueled by suspicions of disloyalty, the U.S. government interned 2,270 people of Japanese ancestry in Hawai‘i after the bombing of Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. Military personnel and local authorities collaborated on arrests, confining internees to the following local areas, with most being sent to O‘ahu’s U.S. Immigration station before being transferred to internment camps on the mainland.

O‘ahu
Honouliuli Internment Camp
Located in the Honouliuli Gulch, 160 acres in the west of Waipahu, the Honouliuli Internment Camp became the largest prisoner of war camp in Hawai‘i by March 1943, holding approximately 320 internees and 4,000 individuals from Japan, Okinawa, Taiwan, Korea and Italy. It was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 2012

There were 110,000 Japanese-American on the Hawaiian Islands during WW II. 320 Japanese-American citizens were interned across the Islands, with an additional 800 moved to the mainland.

there were, to be very clear, a small percentage of Japanese-Americans who were, in fact, working against the U.S., just as there were German and Italian Americans who did the same.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

there were, to be very clear, a small percentage of Japanese-Americans who were, in fact, working against the U.S., just as there were German and Italian Americans who did the same.

A bit of a case, if they could, they would have???

Other factors also played important roles in preventing internment in Hawaii. First, Gen. George C. Marshall, the Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army, informed Gen. John J. DeWitt, the Army’s West Coast commander, that a mass evacuation of Japanese citizens and aliens from Hawaii might impose shipping demands that would damage the urgent war effort by diverting men and materials. Then there was the relatively tolerant racial climate in multi-ethnic Hawaii and the key role people of Japanese descent — about a third of the total population — played in the local economy. Moreover, while the proportion of persons of Japanese descent was incomparably higher in Hawaii than on the West Coast, the reinforcements rushed to the islands had radically changed the ratio between persons of Japanese descent and soldiers. By June 1942, the Army garrison alone numbered 122,000 men (i.e. not counting sailors or Marines), about one soldier for every four civilians.

 

[James Ricker]

The 1st or 2nd atomic bomb would have been dropped on Ploiesti Romania.
1/3 of Axis oil production instantly gone on a ball of nuclear fire.
That would hurt badly

 

[Lautréamont]

It has been argued that the bombings were justified, as Imperial Japan's suicidal aversion to surrender would make an occupation of the home islands unreasonably costly. Whether or not this is true (I'm no expert, but it sounds like a bit of a racist stereotype to me)

Lol, Germany was the surrender-averse Axis country all along. Japan was willing to surrender once it became clear that a Soviet-mediated status quo ante bellum peace wasn't happening. Germany, hell no. Even otherwise-normal Wehrmacht officers preferred national suicide over a repeat of the Kiel mutiny. The Dönitz admin had two weeks between unconditional surrender and getting arrested, and they did make good use of those two weeks to execute deserters.

 

[Hammerbolt]

The 1st or 2nd atomic bomb would have been dropped on Ploiesti Romania.
1/3 of Axis oil production instantly gone on a ball of nuclear fire.
That would hurt badly

I doubt this, tbh. Nukes were meant to stop the war, not slow it down. And Romania is not only not Germany, it's too close to the USSR. My best bet, other than Berlin, would be Hamburg or Nurember. Primary German port and shipyard or the home of the nazi party.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

The bigger issue for US at the time, is getting the weapon accurately that the required destruction is achieved.

Hiroshima aim point was missed by 800ft / 250m, Nagasaki not totally clear and Able test missed by 650m!!! (The target ship was paint ORANGE!!)

For context, 617 Sqn tallboy and grand slam reduced the miss distance from 170 yds to 120 yds dropping from 10,000 or less.

The effects study shows bunkers with reasonable earthen walls had survivors. Concrete structures were very resistant.

An attack on the Hitler Bunker or u-boat pen would be unlikely to succeed.

Yeah, we took that sort of error into our planning for using nukes. In that case it had to do with precision of intelligence on the location of the critical point of the HQ. But, the slogan was "Close Counts". We also were not thinking interms of caving in a bunker roof. General shock effects on humans, such as the temporary blinding, concussion, or temp hearing loss were part of the desired effect. Then there was EMP. People made a big deal out to Soviet equipment being EMP proof. Actually it wasn't, but that's a separate discussion. The TRINITY test, the Hiroshima, and Nagasaki bombs, and the later test had destructive effects on long range and local communications. Telephone lines acted as antenna causing circuit breakers in the phone exchanges to trip, and damage to amplifiers there and to radio equipment. it is correct the circuit breakers were reset and vacuum tubes replaced, and not all items were affected, but it did take hours to restore minimum telephone or radio comm, and a couple days for adequate command and control service to be restored. Between all the human effects, communications & transportation loss in the vicinity of the detonation a HQ is going to be down for a critical moment.

A nuke landing on Kesselrings or Models HQ, or Hitlers CP in Berlin or Berchtegaden in August 1945 is going to badly disrupt the defense first with the intitial days effect, and then with the psychological effect of a couple atomic devices used. One of the models Im looking at is the RAF attack on the HQ of Panzer Group West in Normandy. Schweppenberg had finally got his CP set up on the normandy battle field 9th June. Mid afternoon on the 10th Rommel met him there and was assured the panzer corps would make a massed attack the following morning. However the Brits had detected the CP location, and confirmed it the morning of the 10th. That afternoon, about 40 minutes after Rommel departed. some 350 RAF bombers dropped 400+ tons of explosive across the landscape around the CP. Enough hit the site that Schwppenberg was wounded, as were most of his staff and the support technicians/clerks. The radios, telephone exchange, and vehicles were hors de combat as well. Rommel tried to lash together a new CP for the panzer group, but gave up after a few hours. It was clear the next morning attack was going to be a chaotic mess, so he canceled it.

HQ are difficult targets to locate, but the effects of when they are struck are gratifying.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

But, the slogan was "Close Counts"

Close, but no banana....?

I struggle to imagine using a $1,000,000,000 to take out a operational HQ.

A strategic weapon, for mass destruction and shock.

The target was taken out by 2TAF RAF, set for tactical to operational level, strikes on short notice. Not Bomber Command or 8AF.

The time taken to get the bomb ready, and crew / aircrew / supports briefed, is only really set up for strategic target, with POUSA approval.

EMP being LOS, it would be interesting in Europe terrain (rolling with short non linear lines and multiple providers of power / phone)? As opposed to the very flat, very long linear system of Nevada???

 

[EagleKeeper]

I doubt this, tbh. Nukes were meant to stop the war, not slow it down. And Romania is not only not Germany, it's too close to the USSR. My best bet, other than Berlin, would be Hamburg or Nurember. Primary German port and shipyard or the home of the nazi party.

The problem (as Calbear stated earlier) is that all three of those cities had been extensively bombed already. The Targeteers wanted a relatively undamaged city of a certain size so that the effects would be obvious. Those cities were becoming very rare even by mid 1944. They kept several cities off the 'to be bombed' list in Japan so that there would be several potential targets available. The only cities I know of that were on the 'bomb less than everyone else' were cities that were slated to be used as administrative hubs for the Western occupation forces and Bonn which was planned as the governmental center for the Western Zones. Most of the cities were known as academic centers.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Close, but no banana....?

I struggle to imagine using a $1,000,000,000 to take out a operational HQ.

That sum needs to be prorated across the number of bombs built for the war. In the OTL case it can be divided by 2 for those used, or maybe seven available August - December.

A strategic weapon, for mass destruction and shock.

Well, you are certainly going to get shock as the fronts C3 vaporizes. We had the luxury (?) of being able to use nukes tactically.

The time taken to get the bomb ready, and crew / aircrew / supports briefed, is only really set up for strategic target, with POUSA approval.

EMP being LOS, it would be interesting in Europe terrain (rolling with short non linear lines and multiple providers of power / phone)? As opposed to the very flat, very long linear system of Nevada???

The examples to study would be those in Japan. How the EMP behaved among the hills and mountains. If the Hypothetical HQ is off in the Harz Mountains thats one thing, but if its located near urban agglomerations in west/central Germany thats another thing.

 

[Father Maryland]

A bit of a case, if they could, they would have???

Other factors also played important roles in preventing internment in Hawaii. First, Gen. George C. Marshall, the Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army, informed Gen. John J. DeWitt, the Army’s West Coast commander, that a mass evacuation of Japanese citizens and aliens from Hawaii might impose shipping demands that would damage the urgent war effort by diverting men and materials. Then there was the relatively tolerant racial climate in multi-ethnic Hawaii and the key role people of Japanese descent — about a third of the total population — played in the local economy. Moreover, while the proportion of persons of Japanese descent was incomparably higher in Hawaii than on the West Coast, the reinforcements rushed to the islands had radically changed the ratio between persons of Japanese descent and soldiers. By June 1942, the Army garrison alone numbered 122,000 men (i.e. not counting sailors or Marines), about one soldier for every four civilians.

Their was a case right after Pearl Harbor where a few Japanese Americans did end up aiding a downed IJN pilot including helping him destroy his largely intact crashed Zero. They ended up getting in a firefight and killed with a posse of native Hawaiian people. Though not widely publicized it was heavily cited as a reason to justify internment of Japanese Americans in the Pacific coast states.

Niihau incident - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Obviously that doesn't mean that all Japanese Americans were traitors nor that the large scale internment of Japanese Americans was in any way justified.

Calbear used the pilot being killed in the crash as a major POD in one of his stories.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

The problem (as Calbear stated earlier) is that all three of those cities had been extensively bombed already. The Targeteers wanted a relatively undamaged city of a certain size so that the effects would be obvious. Those cities were becoming very rare even by mid 1944. They kept several cities off the 'to be bombed' list in Japan so that there would be several potential targets available. The only cities I know of that were on the 'bomb less than everyone else' were cities that were slated to be used as administrative hubs for the Western occupation forces and Bonn which was planned as the governmental center for the Western Zones. Most of the cities were known as academic centers.

Somehow I don't think the US leaders are going to decide: there's too much destruction, lets not use this device.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Re: Internment Of Japanese.

I found it ironic that a spy channel of information from th US to Japan was run by a descendant of German immigrants. Her group was not broken until early 1944. Velvalee Dickinson was a native US citizen of German ancestory. Not a category subject to mass interment.