Yeah, there's really no reason to assume she was infertile. In addition to her age when she married, she also suffered stress/depression which played havoc with her health and may have led to menstrual problems, which would have done her no favours in trying to conceive. A dead Anne Boleyn alleviates some of that and might lead to a healthier (and happier?) Mary.
WI:Anne Boleyn dies 1532.
- Thread starter Wildcard F. Kennedy
- Start date
Yeah, there's really no reason to assume she was infertile. In addition to her age when she married, she also suffered stress/depression which played havoc with her health and may have led to menstrual problems, which would have done her no favours in trying to conceive. A dead Anne Boleyn alleviates some of that and might lead to a healthier (and happier?) Mary.
By the time Katherine dies, Marie's in her 30s. Karl V won't allow a marriage before that because, well, the pope refused to annul Henry and Katherine's marriage, so he'd be trying to foist a woman into the king's bed while he has a wife. How is that any different to what Thomas Boleyn was doing? And why would the pope be willing to say yes to something he'd said no to previously? The pope would paint himself a hypocrite, Karl would lose all credibility as objecting for moral reasons, and let's not forget about Marie.
She's not a mere cipher, guys. She'd have no choice but to obey her brother and overlord (think Mary Tudor the Elder), true. But after her husband died, she told Karl she refused to wed again, and took up residence in Burgundy under her widowed aunt's protection. Karl never attempted to use Mary as a pawn in marriage negotiations with either François I or Joao III to my knowledge. Which means thathe obviously either respected Marie's wishes or the fact that she had Aunt Gretl to back her up.
Now, an interesting way for Karl and Henry to reconcile off the books, and to ensure that the nobility might accept FitzRoy - marry FitzRoy to Margaret of Parma. It could make for fun times.
Well, Margaret married two bastards one after the other. So a marriage to FitzRoy's just a step-up. Plus, its unofficial, which means Karl V doesn't lose face to the Katherine party, and still looks like he's playing nice to Henry's supporters. Besides, Henry fished for various royal princesses for FitzRoy OTL (Maria of Viseu, Dorothea or Christine of Denmark, and one of François Ier's daughters, as well as Caterina de Medici), so Karl bestowing his bastard daughter on the king of England's bastard son seems reasonable by comparison.
Lmao did he try to get Francis daughters for his bastard? Dear god was he barking up the wrong tree!
What scenario do people prefer: Mary marrying Luis/James/other suitor or Henry marrying a foreign princess/english lady?
What scenario do people prefer: Mary marrying Luis/James/other suitor or Henry marrying a foreign princess/english lady?
The trouble is, it's really hard to tell just how badly Henry VIII of England might react to losing her at this time. At this point, they've been together, in a celibate, monogamous relationship, for 6 years. Anne Boleyn wasn't some replacement wife to him, she was his everything at this point, and to lose her right before, in his mind, they had it all, is going to destroy the King of England emotionally and spiritually, and I don't see how that is going to end well for anyone. Logically, he should probably go back to Katherine and make amends, but will he?
Depending on the date she dies, he very well might go through with the divorce anyway. Hell, if he does, I can see him being taken a lot more seriously by the rest of the world. Once no one can excuse him by focusing on Anne Boleyn, then they have to come to some new conclusion, and in this scenario, yes, I can definitely see the Pope possibly granting an annulment after the fact, and if that happens, I can see Henry doing something a little crazy, like demanding that Anne Boleyn be coronated post-death and given the rights of a King's Consort and Queen of England.
This probably wouldn't go well, but now we have to look at something else: what happens with Katherine and Mary. If the Pope goes back and gives Henry what he wants now the Boleyn woman is gone, suddenly they're, for all intents and purposes, a former mistress and her bastard daughter. Granted, the marriage was in good faith, so Mary should be okay in the legitimacy area, but it's going to sting to ultimately lose the battle. However, if the Pope sticks to his guns, Henry is not going to welcome them back with open arms, and he certainly won't be marry Mary off in case he doesn't have a son. She'll stay right where she was at the time, maybe upgrading or downgrading her establishment based on how the King feels at any one time.
Katherine is not being forgiven. She is the reason Henry and Anne didn't get their happy ending, in Henry VIII of England's eyes, and no matter what diplomacy calls for, Henry is not going to stomach her presence, or for her to enjoy life. He could be a very bitter, nasty man, and in this scenario, it's going to come out in full force. Katherine probably stays in The More or wherever she was in late 1532, and will most likely die there. She isn't going to come to court, she isn't going to see her daughter again, and she certainly isn't going to be allowed the honour meant for the Queen.
Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, meanwhile, is not going to barter with Henry at this time. At this point, he's very family oriented, it wouldn't be until later that he became harsher with relations. There's a reason Mary of Austria was allowed to remain a widow, and a reason why he stood by Katherine of Aragon through all of this, despite the fact there was plenty of precedent for putting aside Queens who had not brought forth heirs. No Hapsburg Princess is going to marry the King of England during a time when his aunt is alive.
So, in conclusion: Henry VIII is going to be in mourning for ages, and is not about to make amends with the rest of the world now his precious Anne is dead, Katherine and Mary are in a bad position, and the Emperor is not going to support the annulment now.
Depending on the date she dies, he very well might go through with the divorce anyway. Hell, if he does, I can see him being taken a lot more seriously by the rest of the world. Once no one can excuse him by focusing on Anne Boleyn, then they have to come to some new conclusion, and in this scenario, yes, I can definitely see the Pope possibly granting an annulment after the fact, and if that happens, I can see Henry doing something a little crazy, like demanding that Anne Boleyn be coronated post-death and given the rights of a King's Consort and Queen of England.
This probably wouldn't go well, but now we have to look at something else: what happens with Katherine and Mary. If the Pope goes back and gives Henry what he wants now the Boleyn woman is gone, suddenly they're, for all intents and purposes, a former mistress and her bastard daughter. Granted, the marriage was in good faith, so Mary should be okay in the legitimacy area, but it's going to sting to ultimately lose the battle. However, if the Pope sticks to his guns, Henry is not going to welcome them back with open arms, and he certainly won't be marry Mary off in case he doesn't have a son. She'll stay right where she was at the time, maybe upgrading or downgrading her establishment based on how the King feels at any one time.
Katherine is not being forgiven. She is the reason Henry and Anne didn't get their happy ending, in Henry VIII of England's eyes, and no matter what diplomacy calls for, Henry is not going to stomach her presence, or for her to enjoy life. He could be a very bitter, nasty man, and in this scenario, it's going to come out in full force. Katherine probably stays in The More or wherever she was in late 1532, and will most likely die there. She isn't going to come to court, she isn't going to see her daughter again, and she certainly isn't going to be allowed the honour meant for the Queen.
Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, meanwhile, is not going to barter with Henry at this time. At this point, he's very family oriented, it wouldn't be until later that he became harsher with relations. There's a reason Mary of Austria was allowed to remain a widow, and a reason why he stood by Katherine of Aragon through all of this, despite the fact there was plenty of precedent for putting aside Queens who had not brought forth heirs. No Hapsburg Princess is going to marry the King of England during a time when his aunt is alive.
So, in conclusion: Henry VIII is going to be in mourning for ages, and is not about to make amends with the rest of the world now his precious Anne is dead, Katherine and Mary are in a bad position, and the Emperor is not going to support the annulment now.
Katherine of Aragon will die on 1536, perhaps Marie de Bourbon or another French girl might replace her, Marie is already 21 and the bride sought by the King of Scots.
But what about Mary Boleyn for Henry - she's familiar, she's proven to be fertile, her father has no problem with selling her, and more importantly Henry would feel like she'd understand his grief because she loved Anne too. So I'm surprised no one mentioned Mary's family pushing her back into his bed
Wouldn't Henry try with some more high ranking english noblewomen? The Boleyns weren't exactly the cream of the crop.
Feel free. I was tempted myself, but I'm not real good at it. If you do. I'd be happy to help.
This is an interesting idea. It's not a long term solution however. Henry was never going to make Mary queen. He'd already had her, why buy the cow...... Part of the allure of Anne was that she wouldn't submit to Henry sexually without a ring. ITTL Mary might serve as a bed warmer/source of comfort, but it's not long term.
Since we're talking 1532, before the consummation, Henry might kill her himself (before the birth) - now that would be a way to start off a TL!
So, initially, Henry is going to do nothing.....but if he looks for a husband for his daughter, it gives him something to work on. He's leery of English, but will he risk a foreigner? Remember, the marriage contract will determine that. So, who?
What about Henry FitzRoy as spare option? He was bastard, so there is no chance he could sit on the throne himself, but he could marry girl with Plantagenet blood-and their potential son would not be bastard.