Who would be presidential candidates for 1960 elections if Henry Wallace had succeeded Roosevelt instead of Truman because of Nazi victory

So I know my question is very particular but I am currently studying a 'Nazis win barely in Europe' scenario and need help for this. Nazi have won because of ceasefire after Dunkirk. Japan still lost to the USA. The fall of the USSR meant that Henry Wallace and his progressive views weren't cast aside.

OK SO my question is.

Who would be presidential candidates for both Republican and Democratic1960 elections if Henry Wallace had succeeded Roosevelt in 1944.
Now I know that Wallace would be succeeded by someone else in the 50s so obviously don't count him for this 1960 scenario because his terms would have mostly been over by 1960. So I guess search for his second best supporters instead of first best(who would have already served as President in the 50s) idk

Also thanks in advance for your help
 
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If I understand you correctly: The War in Europe effectively ends when the British and French negotiated a ceasefire after Dunkirk (June, 40). Ergo, the Nazis never declare war on the US, nor initiate the Battle of the Atlantic, and there is no basis for the US to go to war against Germany. (I further surmise that the US never has the SU as an ally). Japan, though, still attacks the US and British (and presumptively the French too) the same as OTL. You also have Roosevelt dying in 1942 and not 1944.

Here's my concern: Roosevelt stated that he would not run for a third term in 1940 but changed his mind very late, only after Nazi Germany's blitz through Western Europe. Moreover, Roosevelt was reportedly concerned by the particular threat the Nazis posed to Great Britain after the fall of France, Also, his health was getting worse. While in OTL, Roosevelt was willing to work through his health issues because he felt the US was all that was left to defend democracy against the Nazis and he was then only person would led the US. War with Japan was still a year away and the US wasn't going to go to war with Japan over China. So if the Nazi threat is averted prior to the Democratic convention, Roosevelt has no reason to be on the ballot for a third term. Ergo, no Henry Wallace as his Veep.

It may cause you to redo your TL, but if the world proceeded same as OTL up to the Tehran Conference, but the Nazi successfully pull off Op. Long Jump (in whole or in part) to assassinate Roosevelt. Then Wallace takes over, albeit in 1943 and with a world war he'll have to successfully prosecute (hopefully without his use of psychics to set military strategy). Personally, I think Wallace would have been toast in the 1944 elections, and might not have even been the nominee.
 
If I understand you correctly: The War in Europe effectively ends when the British and French negotiated a ceasefire after Dunkirk (June, 40). Ergo, the Nazis never declare war on the US, nor initiate the Battle of the Atlantic, and there is no basis for the US to go to war against Germany. (I further surmise that the US never has the SU as an ally). Japan, though, still attacks the US and British (and presumptively the French too) the same as OTL. You also have Roosevelt dying in 1942 and not 1944.

Here's my concern: Roosevelt stated that he would not run for a third term in 1940 but changed his mind very late, only after Nazi Germany's blitz through Western Europe. Moreover, Roosevelt was reportedly concerned by the particular threat the Nazis posed to Great Britain after the fall of France, Also, his health was getting worse. While in OTL, Roosevelt was willing to work through his health issues because he felt the US was all that was left to defend democracy against the Nazis and he was then only person would led the US. War with Japan was still a year away and the US wasn't going to go to war with Japan over China. So if the Nazi threat is averted prior to the Democratic convention, Roosevelt has no reason to be on the ballot for a third term. Ergo, no Henry Wallace as his Veep.

It may cause you to redo your TL, but if the world proceeded same as OTL up to the Tehran Conference, but the Nazi successfully pull off Op. Long Jump (in whole or in part) to assassinate Roosevelt. Then Wallace takes over, albeit in 1943 and with a world war he'll have to successfully prosecute (hopefully without his use of psychics to set military strategy). Personally, I think Wallace would have been toast in the 1944 elections, and might not have even been the nominee.
Oops sorry. I wrote1942 by mistake. I meant to write 1944
 
Nazi have won because of ceasefire after Dunkirk. Japan still lost to the USA.
Is it at all plausible that Japan would launch the Pacific War, knowing they would face the US and Britain single-handed? And also the on-going war with China, and possibly war with France (Japan taking over Indochina will not be accepted by France that is not German-mostly-occupied), and possible renewed conflict with the USSR.
The fall of the USSR...
How does the USSR fall? After the capitulation of Britain and France, Stalin will become very paranoid about German invasion (rather than assuming that Germany was still busy fighting Britain, Hitler was too smart to get into a two-front war, desperate Britain was fabricating provocations). So the Axis invasion of the USSR would be very chancy.
... meant that Henry Wallace and his progressive views weren't cast aside.
There were a number of reasons why Wallace was dropped from the ticket. There was no great domestic policy difference between him and Truman
Here's my concern: Roosevelt stated that he would not run for a third term in 1940...
AFAIK he never said that explicitly.
but changed his mind very late, only after Nazi Germany's blitz through Western Europe. Moreover, Roosevelt was reportedly concerned by the particular threat the Nazis posed to Great Britain after the fall of France...
And in this TL, France and Britain have been defeated and the Nazi menace is perhaps even bigger than OTL. There was no time for any kind of cease-fire or capitulation after Dunkirk and before the fall of France. The evacuation ended on 4 June; the Germans finished off the rear guards next day. But that same day they also started CASE RED, the final drive south across France, and by 10 June had shattered the "Weygand Line" and were driving on Paris. Assuming that Britain (led by not-Churchill) publicly announces its withdrawal from the war on 5 June - does France immediately grovel for mercy? And would Hitler stop his armies? Maybe after occupying Paris, just to show the world.

Incidentally, this invites a question: what would be Hitler's terms to France if Britain backs out? Germany would not need to occupy western and northern France.
Also, his health was getting worse. While in OTL, Roosevelt was willing to work through his health issues because he felt the US was all that was left to defend democracy against the Nazis and he was then only person would led the US. War with Japan was still a year away and the US wasn't going to go to war with Japan over China. So if the Nazi threat is averted prior to the Democratic convention, Roosevelt has no reason to be on the ballot for a third term. Ergo, no Henry Wallace as his Veep.
Nazi victory does not avert the Nazi threat. Though you are correct, if Roosevelt does not run again, Wallace will not be nominated for VP (or anything else). Wallace was nominated OTL only because Roosevelt insisted.

However, IMHO Roosevelt would run again, and very likely pick Wallace.
 

bguy

Donor
Here's my concern: Roosevelt stated that he would not run for a third term in 1940 but changed his mind very late, only after Nazi Germany's blitz through Western Europe. Moreover, Roosevelt was reportedly concerned by the particular threat the Nazis posed to Great Britain after the fall of France, Also, his health was getting worse. While in OTL, Roosevelt was willing to work through his health issues because he felt the US was all that was left to defend democracy against the Nazis and he was then only person would led the US. War with Japan was still a year away and the US wasn't going to go to war with Japan over China. So if the Nazi threat is averted prior to the Democratic convention, Roosevelt has no reason to be on the ballot for a third term. Ergo, no Henry Wallace as his Veep.

Cease-fire negotiations between the Nazis and Britain would take some time and thus could easily push past July 1940 (when the Democratic National Convention is). Furthermore if anything the Nazi threat looks even greater in a timeline where they've defeated Britain, so that would give FDR even more reason to decide he has to run for another term.

Is it at all plausible that Japan would launch the Pacific War, knowing they would face the US and Britain single-handed? And also the on-going war with China, and possibly war with France (Japan taking over Indochina will not be accepted by France that is not German-mostly-occupied), and possible renewed conflict with the USSR.

Would France actually be able to stop Japan from taking over Indochina? I wouldn't think a France that has been defeated by Hitler would have much ability to project power in Southeast Asia.

How does the USSR fall? After the capitulation of Britain and France, Stalin will become very paranoid about German invasion (rather than assuming that Germany was still busy fighting Britain, Hitler was too smart to get into a two-front war, desperate Britain was fabricating provocations). So the Axis invasion of the USSR would be very chancy.

Wouldn't that be offset by Germany not being under blockade and having its cities bombed by the British?

There were a number of reasons why Wallace was dropped from the ticket. There was no great domestic policy difference between him and Truman

If Roosevelt dies in 1944 though then that all becomes moot. The Democrats aren't going to dump Wallace if he's the incumbent president leading the country in a war.


As for the original question about possible candidates for 1960, on the Democratic side what about James Roosevelt? IOTL he had an impressive war record in World War 2 and as the son of a popular president seemed to have good electoral prospects but then his political career hit an iceberg when he took on and was defeated by the very popular Earl Warren in the 1950 California gubernatorial race, however in a timeline with a President Wallace, it is very likely the GOP wins the 1948 presidential election. (Wallace will face a much larger Dixiecrat revolt than Truman did, and will be less able to appeal to moderate voters than Truman as well, so I don't see him being able to replicate Truman's upset victory.) A GOP victory in the 1948 presidential election very likely gets Warren out of California (be it as Vice President, a spot on the Supreme Court, or maybe as Attorney General) and if Roosevelt doesn't have to face Warren then he has a decent chance of winning the 1950 California gubernatorial race which would set him up quite well for a presidential run in 1956 or 1960.

Roosevelt would probably need a moderate Southern as his vice president to appeal to the South so maybe LBJ or Al Gore as his veep.

On the Republican side, given his wealth, ambition, and ability Nelson Rockefeller will probably still be a major power player in the GOP ITTL.

Likewise William Knowland comes from a prominent California family and is good friends with Earl Warren, thus unless Knowland gets killed fighting in the Pacific War, he will almost certainly be appointed by Governor Warren to the Senate whenever Hiram Johnson dies (which presumably will still be sometime around 1945) and that sets Knowland up to also be a major player in the GOP.

Thus 1960 could see the GOP with a nomination fight between Rockefeller (representing the liberal wing of the party) and Knowland (representing the conservative wing). You might also seem some other figure (maybe Charles Halleck) trying to cut a path to the nomination in between Knowland and Rockefeller.
 
Wouldn't that be offset by Germany not being under blockade and having its cities bombed by the British?
Not under blockade helps some (but Germany had exhausted its foreign exchange by 1940). British bombing was not very effective in 1940-41. (Though it was embarrassing. During a visit to Berlin, Molotov was assured by von Ribbentrop that Britain was completely defeated. Molotov replied "Then whose bombers are we hiding from?" They were in the bomb shelter under the Foreign Ministry.)

More important perhaps is that Germany would not be able to loot occupied Europe - at least, not as much as OTL.
 
Cease-fire negotiations between the Nazis and Britain would take some time and thus could easily push past July 1940 (when the Democratic National Convention is).
Understood. But Petain signed the Armistice June 22, 1940-- before the July convention. So the ceasefire with Germany (as stated in the OP) must be a British ceasefire (even though no one in England was willing to negotiate with Hitler at that point). But even if one plausibly changed the British policy of negotiating a truce with Hitler (the rocky shoals on which many contributors have perished), would these ceasefire negotiations be kept secret from the US? The US leadership was very concerned that there would be a very real and successful invasion of the UK in the coming months and that particular danger formed the publicly-stated basis for FDR breaking the 3rd term norm. Of course, the proposed TL could have Roosevelt privately planning to run in 1940 and simply needing the appropriate pretext to break with tradition. Then Wallace is on the ticket as Roosevelt's VP for the convention. But now there is no war waging in Europe on US election day and either the UK-Nazi truce is a done deal but if not, the negotiations are commonly known in the US. Pearl Harbor hasn't happened and the only place Japan is running wild during 1940 is in China. So now Roosevelt would be running for a 3rd term (which had also been a 3rd rail in American politics) with no reason for violating tradition (there's a greatly reduced threat of war and the Depression is increasingly in the country's rearview mirror). But let's assume FDR concocts something that US voters accept and re-elect him. Then he dies.

I'm not yet heard anything compelling, or a plausible scenario, where Wallace has a shelf-life past the 1944 convention. By 1944, (per the OP) there is a truce with the UK that's held up, so the US isn't at war in Western Europe. Moreover, Nazi Germany is now involved in resource intensive war or occupation involving the Soviets. That means zero risk of Hitler yelling "fooled you" and opening a second front with another double-cross. Therefore, to have a "wartime presidency" for Wallace, the OP needs a Japan that decided to go ahead and take on a US/UK/Commonwealth alliance that in the proposed TL is not pre-occupied in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa, and then, Japan would need to survive nearly as long in that conflict as they did OTL And can anyone trust Wallace not to advocate (or suggest) that the US should declare on the Nazis to help the Soviets!?!

The OP has Roosevelt dying during his 3rd term. Is this before or after Roosevelt makes it abundantly clear that Wallace has lost his confidence? I believe that was circa 1943. And Wallace's enemies with the party haven't gone away, and they certainly haven't forgotten Wallace's personal quirks. Lastly, why would Wallace's domestic policy have any success passing in an increasingly hostile Congress. Even FDR had problems with his favored domestic legislation post-1940. Congress (the home of many Wallace's intra-party enemies) should be an even bigger problem for a Wallace agenda. My humble opinion-- Truman or Gardner or someone usurps Wallace at the 1944 convention and the OTL is restored with minimal butterflies. As such Wallace has no impact on the 1960 presidential race and is mainly viewed as a caretaker president.
 

bguy

Donor
Understood. But Petain signed the Armistice June 22, 1940-- before the July convention. So the ceasefire with Germany (as stated in the OP) must be a British ceasefire (even though no one in England was willing to negotiate with Hitler at that point). But even if one plausibly changed the British policy of negotiating a truce with Hitler (the rocky shoals on which many contributors have perished), would these ceasefire negotiations be kept secret from the US?

I agree that the British negotiating with Hitler is extremely unlikely, but that is the conceit of the OP's timeline, so we just have to roll with it.

The US leadership was very concerned that there would be a very real and successful invasion of the UK in the coming months and that particular danger formed the publicly-stated basis for FDR breaking the 3rd term norm. Of course, the proposed TL could have Roosevelt privately planning to run in 1940 and simply needing the appropriate pretext to break with tradition. Then Wallace is on the ticket as Roosevelt's VP for the convention. But now there is no war waging in Europe on US election day and either the UK-Nazi truce is a done deal but if not, the negotiations are commonly known in the US. Pearl Harbor hasn't happened and the only place Japan is running wild during 1940 is in China. So now Roosevelt would be running for a 3rd term (which had also been a 3rd rail in American politics) with no reason for violating tradition (there's a greatly reduced threat of war and the Depression is increasingly in the country's rearview mirror). But let's assume FDR concocts something that US voters accept and re-elect him.

The Nazis dominating Europe isn't enough reason? Do you honestly think the American people are going to think Hitler is less of a threat once he's conquered France and beaten Britain? The American people (and leadership) were absolutely terrified by the fall of France. Just look at how the US reacted to that IOTL with the very prompt passage of the Two Ocean Navy Act, a massive increase in defense spending. That act authorized a staggering number of new ships and planes.

(The above list per Wikipedia).

But what's really interesting about the Two Ocean Navy Act is the process by which it was passed. Admiral Stark asked Congress for four billion dollars to expand the fleet, and the House of Representatives more than doubled his request, approving an 8.55 billion appropriation, after less than a hour's debate, unanimously. Unanimously passing a bill with more than twice the funding level the military asked for after only a hour's debate is the mark of an absolutely terrified country, and the US anxiety level is certainly not going to be reduced by the news that the British are negotiating with Hitler. (If anything that news is going to hyper-charge US anxiety since that means there's now nothing standing between Hitler and the United States.)

Thus FDR has all the justification he could ever need if he wants to seek a third term because the Nazi threat looks even greater than IOTL and the American people are (understandably) going to be far more afraid here than they were IOTL.

I'm not yet heard anything compelling, or a plausible scenario, where Wallace has a shelf-life past the 1944 convention. By 1944, (per the OP) there is a truce with the UK that's held up, so the US isn't at war in Western Europe. Moreover, Nazi Germany is now involved in resource intensive war or occupation involving the Soviets. That means zero risk of Hitler yelling "fooled you" and opening a second front with another double-cross. Therefore, to have a "wartime presidency" for Wallace, the OP needs a Japan that decided to go ahead and take on a US/UK/Commonwealth alliance that in the proposed TL is not pre-occupied in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa, and then, Japan would need to survive nearly as long in that conflict as they did OTL And can anyone trust Wallace not to advocate (or suggest) that the US should declare on the Nazis to help the Soviets!?!

Imperial Japan was not exactly known for it's rational foreign policy decision making. IOTL when they were already bogged down in China they still decided to take on an (at the time undistracted) United States, a country with 16 times their industrial capability and to also fight the British Empire while they were at it. If faced with a choice between taking on nation's that are significantly more powerful than them or withdrawing from China, they are going to chose the former no matter how insane it is. We know this because that's exactly what they did IOTL.

Furthermore, the necessary conditions for a Pacific War are all still there since if Roosevelt is reelected in 1940, he will almost certainly extend significant military aid to China in 1941.

IOTL, the US in 1941 agreed to provide the resources necessary to provide the Nationalist Chinese with 500 planes and to equip 30 Chinese divisions to US standards. (Per "Stillwell's Mission to China" from the US Army Center of Military History, the Chinese were specifically requesting 30 battalions of 75mm pack howitzers with 2000 shells for each gun, 30 battalions of 37mm anti-tank guns with 1,500 shells for each gun, 30 battalions of 105mm and 8 battalions of 155mm howitzers, 15000 7.92 mm machine guns with 500,000,000 rounds of ammo, 360 light tanks and 400 scout cars which the US believed it could deliver by mid 1942.) I don't think a lack of war in Europe would prevent the US from agreeing to support the Chinese in 1941 since FDR is still sympathetic to China, the China Lobby is still a powerful voice in US politics, and Americans will still fear Japanese expansionism regardless of what is happening in Europe. (Plus with no war in Europe, it's actually easier for the US to justify sending military supplies to China since that equipment is not needed for Britain.)

Japan can't win in China if the Chinese get that level of aid from the US, and the Japanese will know that. Thus they either have to prevent the US from shipping that aid to China which means invading Indochina and Burma (even if that means war with the US and UK) or accept the loss of China. And we know that when faced with that choice the Japanese leadership will chose war. (They pretty much have to because agreeing to withdraw from China means them getting assassinated by their own junior officers.)

As for Japan surviving as long as they did IOTL, that's very likely as well. Warships (and more importantly a fleet train) can only be built so fast, and thus it is going to take several years for the US to build up the necessary fleet and infrastructure to drive across the Pacific even if there is no war in Europe. Thus the war will almost certainly still be going in November 1944.)

As for Wallace wanting war with the Nazis, even if Wallace wanted to do that, what would it matter? Wallace would need congressional approval to declare war (unless Hitler obliges him by declaring war first), and while Wallace may not have been the greatest of politicians, I think he was smart enough to know that Congress wasn't going to agree to go to war with the Nazis just to pull Stalin's chestnuts out of the fire.

The OP has Roosevelt dying during his 3rd term. Is this before or after Roosevelt makes it abundantly clear that Wallace has lost his confidence? I believe that was circa 1943.

In 1944 Roosevelt was still willing to write a letter stating he would personally vote for Wallace for vice president.

And even if Roosevelt did lose confidence in Wallace, why would that matter once Wallace is the incumbent president with all the prestige, power, and patronage that comes from that position? And especially when Wallace is presiding over an apparently successful war against Japan? (The Pacific War won't be over by November 1944, but it should be very clear the US is winning by that point.) The American people aren't going to want to throw out a president who is successful leading them through a war, and the Democratic power brokers would know that.

Lastly, why would Wallace's domestic policy have any success passing in an increasingly hostile Congress. Even FDR had problems with his favored domestic legislation post-1940. Congress (the home of many Wallace's intra-party enemies) should be an even bigger problem for a Wallace agenda.

Agreed but why is that relevant? I don't recall anyone saying that Wallace would be successful in enacting much legislatively.

My humble opinion-- Truman or Gardner or someone usurps Wallace at the 1944 convention and the OTL is restored with minimal butterflies. As such Wallace has no impact on the 1960 presidential race and is mainly viewed as a caretaker president.

In the unlikely event that the Democrats are able to topple a wartime president presiding over a successful war, it would still require a nasty nomination fight that would split the Democratic Party in two. Thus the result of such an event would almost certainly be President Thomas Dewey come January 20, 1945.
 
The Nazis dominating Europe isn't enough reason? Do you honestly think the American people are going to think Hitler is less of a threat once he's conquered France and beaten Britain? The American people (and leadership) were absolutely terrified by the fall of France.
Were they? Serious question. Lots of Americans didn’t like the Nazis, but I’m not aware of any kind of widespread terror of the supposed Nazi military threat against America.
 
Assuming a Nazi Germany that dominates Europe but the US still fights a Pacific War; there's no reason it couldn't be Kennedy and Nixon. Maybe it's Joe Jr since he survived?
 
I would suggest that Henry Wallace is very unlikely to succeed FDR in the ATL - 1944 is going to be closer than OTL and FDR is going to be more likely, rather than less likely, to boot Wallace from the ticket in such an election. Especially since Wallace will probably be among the advocates for conflict with Germany in his administration; who in the ATL we have to assume would be the losers.
 
OK SO my question is.

Who would be presidential candidates for both Republican and Democratic1960 elections if Henry Wallace had succeeded Roosevelt in 1944.
Now I know that Wallace would be succeeded by someone else in the 50s so obviously don't count him for this 1960 scenario because his terms would have mostly been over by 1960. So I guess search for his second best supporters instead of first best(who would have already served as President in the 50s) idk

Also thanks in advance for your help
Hubert Humphrey might get more credit, maybe more Farmer-Labor types are nominated.
 

bguy

Donor
Were they? Serious question. Lots of Americans didn’t like the Nazis, but I’m not aware of any kind of widespread terror of the supposed Nazi military threat against America.

As described above I think the fact that a unanimous House of Representatives approved a defense appropriation more than double what the Navy actually asked for after only a hour's worth of debate that authorized the building of (among other things) 18 aircraft carriers, 7 battleships, 33 cruisers, 115 destroyers, 43 submarines and 15,000 aircraft right after the Nazis overran France is a pretty good indicator that the country was terrified. Elected officials don't throw that kind of money at their military without any sort of partisan wrangling unless the public is panicking about a military threat against the country.

Also if you want some polling at the time a Gallup Poll taken in April 1940 had 65% of the respondents state that they believed if Germany defeated France and Britain that it would eventually attack the United States. Polling in May of 1940 likewise showed that 86% of the respondents favored increasing defense spending and that 76% were willing to pay a special tax to pay for increased defense spending.

 
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I'm sorry but the OP is ludicrous. An alternate timeline where Wallace becomes POTUS in or about 1945, for whatever reason, would be so unrecognizable by 1960 that it would be impossible to make even roughly informed guesses on the POTUS candidates in that year.
 
"Have You Now or have You ever been a Member of the Nazi Party?," - House Committee on Unamerican Activity (HUAC)

"I have in my possession a list of National Socialists currently working within the Federal Government!" - Senator Joseph McCarthy
 
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