When the Wind Blew: a P&S Open Thread

Message from Jack.

Jack has asked me to pass on a message since he is on 'the naughty step' (his words) at the moment.
He doesn't think that the Vatican conspiracy is very plausible but that some of the other ideas are quite good.
 
:D ROTFLMAO. :D

If that's what you want to run with, that's your decision.

However, if you honestly believe that the Provisional IRA ~ EDIT ~ Deleted as being excessively scornful and not a little rude :eek: ~EDIT~

Instead I would simply observe that I have my doubts about the plausibility of such a situation.

I will watch with interest to see how you go. Good luck.

Falkenburg

I do not believe for one moment that the IRA has the capability or the audacity to take on the British Army in this life, the next or an alternative reality (although that could be bent) it ain't going to happen. If a nuclear war did occur, all hell will break loose.
 
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That scenario sort of sounds like something Dan Brown might write, or what the Unionists in Northern Ireland might say at their most paranoid. Having read the plot I can't see Jack allowing it to become cannon and it's his TL after all, we're just his guests.
In any case I suspect that Londonderry/Derry does not survive the war.

I would add one thing - if the UK has locked up subversives on the Mainland if there are any Republican leaders in NI just before the war we'd have interned them as well, along with the likes of the UDA and UVF. The Security Forces always knew who the leaders were.
Even escaping to the Republic is no guarantee of safety, after all in WW2 the Irish Republic interned many IRA members and IMVHO they'd do the same here.

Post-war with Dublin and possibly Casement and Shannon gone the Irish will have enough on their plate looking after themselves never mind adding 6 extra counties.

Well Frattini is not Dan Brown and has written detailed accounts of the Catholic church, the most renowned intelligence agencies including Mossad, the KGB, Mi6, the CIA, and on Bin Laden. Anywho, Locking up subversives is one thing, locking up armed gunmen on the other hand is a totally different matter. To be honest I think more than likely in that situation the Increment will be paying the ASUs and the IRA chain of command a visit. When the bomb goes off, most or all comms are going to shit and lots of people will either be hiding from fallout or become fallout. Sooner or later the choice of the lesser of two evils will come into being, that being keeping the warring factions apart or bring one of them into the fold.
 
Actually detaining senior paramilitaries is probably easier than subversives. The RUC and army can go in mob handed and if they resist shoot them.
 
HFBC, what Frattini gives to Vatican City, leaving aside that many things in his books are merely assumptions or speculations, is something working in a "normal" world. Using the same explanation given some time ago about Mafia-and sorry if it sounds quite...blasphemous-: a Vatican lobbyist may barter politics favorable to Catholic Church through bribe, promises of help in influencing vote in a district or any other support action (including negative press against an opponent), but in a situation so socially and politically changed like the one we have after this WWIII, what he have to offer to an Italian, a Spanish or an Irish politician? Moreover do not forget that Church structure is going to be severely maimed by death or incapacitation of many Bishops and higher rank functionaries in Europe, Asia and North America.

Rimini is on the Soviet target list, and you're right, 7401st US
Army Munitions Support Squadron have of course nuclear warheads for the 5° Stormo "Giuseppe Cenni" of AMI. Of course you have to read to know its fate :D;)

About Spain: two aircraft shadowing a RN ship is not a very impressive show of force, and there's still a fog of war about what has been hit and what has not been; my idea is something lighter than France and Italy but no less than 80 MIRV devices.

Sorry if I seemed to be in a lecturing mode, I just tried to point out something inside the sphere of knowledge of my studies :)
 
Rimini is on the Soviet target list, and you're right, 7401st US
Army Munitions Support Squadron have of course nuclear warheads for the 5° Stormo "Giuseppe Cenni" of AMI. Of course you have to read to know its fate :D;)

About Spain: two aircraft shadowing a RN ship is not a very impressive show of force, and there's still a fog of war about what has been hit and what has not been; my idea is something lighter than France and Italy but no less than 80 MIRV devices.

That is not bene, Bye bye Cattolica, you will be missed!:( Eighty MIRVs sounds like a very bad day. What is a 'stormo' by the way?
 
Two Spanish aircraft shadowing an RN warship does not necessarily suggest hostile intent. We've just had a nuclear exchange and there would be no easy way to identify who a ship belonged to except by visual identification.
 
New York hits v2.0

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New York State, on February 21, 1984, contained over 17 million and a half people, half in New York City.

After February 21, 1984, that was no more.

*Buffalo got five missiles: One over Niagara Falls, one over the International Airport, and three over downtown Buffalo.

*Rochester got two: One over the airport, and one over the downtown area.

*Syracuse also got two: One over the airport, and one over the downtown area. Bernie Fine, needless to say, is very, very dead. (1)

*Binghamton got one over the downtown area.

*Fort Drum got four nuclear weapons.

*Plattsburgh AFB was hit by seven nuclear weapons, which completely destroyed the city of Plattsburgh. (2)

*The Albany-Schenectady-Troy area got seven: One over the Watervilet arsenal, one over Troy, one over Schenectady, and four over Albany: one exploded over the state capitol building, two over downtown and one over the Albany airport.

*Kingston, New York (3) is the emergency capital of New York State, and Governor Cuomo (as well as most of the New York executive leadership) is based out of there (4). Many of the Catskill resorts have been reopened...as emergency shelters and morgues (for the dead) for refugees fleeing the New York metro area (and other areas in the state). (5)

*There is a bit of good luck: Stewart International Airport (the HQ of the New York Air National Guard) was spared a hit (whether the missile that was meant for it missed or was destroyed before it could launch is a debate in TTL) and Newburgh and Poughkeepsie (6) were also spared from being hit. The IBM plant in Poughkeepsie is still intact, and many IBM employees evacuated to the area from New York City and Binghamton. Many surviving National Guard troops are stationed here.

*West Point military academy got two nuclear weapons.

*The hardest-hit area of the state was, it goes without saying, the New York City metro area. In an area from Rockland and Putnam counties in the north to the eastern end of Long Island, there were multiple nuclear weapons detonated, with the first exploding at 1:09 p.m., Eastern Standard Time. Reports from New York ANG jets ordered to do surveys over the New York area have revealed nothing but ruins. A few survivors have made it to Newbergh and Poughkeepsie (those that weren't caught up in the West Point blasts), but 99% of the metro area population that hadn't evacuated died.

(1) Yes, Fine and his boss would both be in Syracuse in TTL. Now, if Macragge1 or his fellow authors could kill Jerry Sandusky...

(2) Unless it survived in P & S: Operation Prospero

(3) A nod to Glen's timeline.

(4) Cuomo would probably start trying to prepare (I don't know his character) in November or December of 1983, especially given that there are many targets in New York state and especially if he talks to Bob Kerrey or Graham.

(5) Those that haven't been torn down, of course.

(6) New York needs some luck, especially given the destruction of New York City.
 
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Two Spanish aircraft shadowing an RN warship does not necessarily suggest hostile intent. We've just had a nuclear exchange and there would be no easy way to identify who a ship belonged to except by visual identification.

Spain is a NATO member so they would know what major Allied weapons, vehicles, aircraft and ships will look like through recognition charts and the like. If they are shadowing the Gloucester it does not mean they are going to be friendly either.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New York State, on February 21, 1984, contained over 17 million and a half people, half in New York City.

After February 21, 1984, that was no more.

*Buffalo got five missiles: One over Niagara Falls, one over the International Airport, and three over downtown Buffalo.

*Rochester got two: One over the airport, and one over the downtown area.

*Syracuse also got two: One over the airport, and one over the downtown area. Bernie Fine, needless to say, is very, very dead. (1)

*Binghamton got one over the downtown area.

*The Rome-Utica area got a total of eight: Three over Griffiss Air Force Base, several more to try and catch bombers from Griffis, and one each over Rome and Utica.

*Fort Drum got four nuclear weapons

*Plattsburgh AFB was hit by seven nuclear weapons, which completely destroyed the city of Plattsburgh. (2)

*The Albany-Schenectady-Troy area got seven: One over the Watervilet arsenal, one over Troy, one over Schenectady, and four over Albany: one exploded over the state capitol building, two over downtown and one over the Albany airport.

*Kingston, New York (3) is the emergency capital of New York State, and Governor Cuomo (as well as most of the New York executive leadership) is based out of there (4). Many of the Catskill resorts have been reopened...as emergency shelters and morgues (for the dead) for refugees fleeing the New York metro area (and other areas in the state). (5)

*There is a bit of good luck: Stewart International Airport (the HQ of the New York Air National Guard) was spared a hit (whether the missile that was meant for it missed or was destroyed before it could launch is a debate in TTL) and Newburgh and Poughkeepsie (6) were also spared from being hit. The IBM plant in Poughkeepsie is still intact, and many IBM employees evacuated to the area from New York City and Binghamton. Many surviving National Guard troops are stationed here.

*West Point military academy got two nuclear weapons.

*The hardest-hit area of the state was, it goes without saying, the New York City metro area. In an area from Rockland and Putnam counties in the north to the eastern end of Long Island, there were multiple nuclear weapons detonated, the first at 1:00 p.m., Eastern Standard Time, a minute after the Emergency Broadcast System took over broadcasting in New York state. Reports from New York ANG jets ordered to do surveys over the New York area have revealed nothing but ruins. A few survivors have made it to Newbergh and Poughkeepsie (those that weren't caught up in the West Point blasts), but 99% of the metro area population that hadn't evacuated died.

(1) Yes, Fine and his boss would both be in Syracuse in TTL. Now, if Macragge1 or his fellow authors could kill Jerry Sandusky...

(2) Unless it survived in P & S: Operation Prospero

(3) A nod to Glen's timeline.

(4) Cuomo would probably start trying to prepare (I don't know his character) in November or December of 1983, especially given that there are many targets in New York state and especially if he talks to Bob Kerrey or Graham.

(5) Those that haven't been torn down, of course.

(6) New York needs some luck, especially given the destruction of New York City.

I liked this, but TBH, how in the hell would NYC have been destroyed only 1 minute after the E.B.S. took over? I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense(the sub missiles may be fast, but not that fast!). Try for something more like 1:10 or 1:15 and it'd be a lot more realistic.
 
What were the Ohio targets? From inferring from what Jack wrote during the Op Prospero plot thread, Cleveland for sure did not get glassed, maybe Toledo, Youngstown-Warren, Canton, Lima, Findlay, and Mansfield as well. Cincinnati was glassed, as was Akron, Wright-Pat (and Dayton), Lockbourne (Rickenbacker), and Columbus... Any others? What were the yields used on the cities that were attacked? If you have most of Ohio north of I-70 unscathed, the first through tenth largest American cities could be in the Buckeye State...
 
The Mondale for President Committee had just begun running this ad campaign when world events forced the suspension of the race for the Democratic presidential nomination:

nothing nucmadness.png
 
What were the Ohio targets? From inferring from what Jack wrote during the Op Prospero plot thread, Cleveland for sure did not get glassed, maybe Toledo, Youngstown-Warren, Canton, Lima, Findlay, and Mansfield as well. Cincinnati was glassed, as was Akron, Wright-Pat (and Dayton), Lockbourne (Rickenbacker), and Columbus... Any others? What were the yields used on the cities that were attacked? If you have most of Ohio north of I-70 unscathed, the first through tenth largest American cities could be in the Buckeye State...

I'm interested in this as well, with it's mining industry, energy deposits, access to freshwater, fertile soil, and heavy industry, P&S could be a real Buckeye wank
 
To those in peril on the sea.

Cairns North Queensland

Wednesday February 22 1984

0330AEST

The phone was ringing and ringing and ringing…..

“Jeezus bloody Christ who is ringing at this time…….?” Cairns International Airport Manager Andy Wheetam blearily groped for the phone. Way too much scotch last night but what the hell does a divorced fiftyish man do at nights anyway?

“Yeh, yeh, yeh Andy here, who’s speaking?”

“What you say?, National Emergency my arse…nobody’d be that stupid. Yeh OK I’ll be down shortly…..give me half an hour”

Andy was the senior executive managing the Cairns International Airport, itself owned and operated by the Cairns Port Authority. He had been awakened by the Control Tower night duty officers who were employed by the Commonwealth Government but answered to him for all operational airport matters.

Skipping a shower and shave, and aware of a general hung-over and grubby feeling made worse by throwing on a clean shirt, he simply brushed his teeth and splashed cold water over his head. Then downstairs into the car and off into the moonless night.

The roads were empty driving down to the Airport and he made good time. The Airport itself was ablaze with lights and he noted that it looked little different to normal, even if the world might be coming to an end in other places. The night was noisy with cicadas and steamy hot this late Summer night. Sunrise was still a couple of hours away.

Skipping the dark unmanned Administration complex, Wheetam let himself through the card reader security system and climbed the stairs to the Tower.

“OK fellas, fill me in”

“We’ve had a special telex from Canberra, Andy. All hell’s breaking loose in Europe….some prick’s used a nuke in Germany and it’s anybody’s guess where it goes from here. We’re expecting some military traffic to be dispersed from Townsville and apparently the Yanks are requesting that we make the Airport available for emergency use of civilian traffic. Their nearest military stuff is in Darwin, four B 52s and three Herky-birds.

Our direction is to co-operate in all ways possible with the Yanks and of course other NATO countries”.
Wheetam read the telex himself and shrugged…”When’s the next scheduled flight into Cairns?”

“We’ve nothing until an Ansett 727 from Brissy at 0730, then a string of other domestics as usual.”

“Thank Christ we’re not accepting International big jets until the end of March, life will be difficult enough as is without reffos flying in from the North.”

“So we wait…anyone clued the CEO in on this lot yet?” Wheetam referred to Bob Pye, CEO of both Airport and Seaport….corporate head and Andy’s boss.

“Nah, what’s the point? He’ll be screwing some shiela anyway at this time…won’t be interested”

“Not good enough…if I’m up and busy so’s fucking Pye, get him down here.Get the fucking radio on too…lets see if the news has anything.”

0800 AEST

ABC News Radio: “Good morning ladies and gentlemen, we are reliably informed that nuclear weapons have been used in the Northern hemisphere. We are as yet unaware of the number and location of all such explosions, but certainly can inform listeners that the ABC no longer has any contact whatsoever with overseas correspondents in Europe, the Soviet Union and North America.”

“Normal contact is still in place with correspondents in New Zealand, and certain South American correspondents as well as our immediate neighbours in Indonesia and Papua New Guinea.”

“Prime Minister Hawke will speak to the nation at twelve noon today.”

1200 AEST

ABC News Radio: “My Fellow Australians, I bring you today news of the most difficult and distressing nature.

We are as yet quite unable to form a clear picture of exactly what has taken place in the Northern Hemisphere though it is clear that something truly dreadful and far-reaching has happened. Many nuclear weapons have fallen and it is my sad duty to inform you that Australia has not escaped unscathed.

Our national military and civil intelligence informs me that early this morning we were struck by up to seven nuclear weapons of large yield, targeted at our more important naval and command and control facilities. Thankfully civilian casualties are, whilst appalling in normal circumstances…. ………CRACK”

1300 AEST

Radio 4CA Cairns

“Ladies and gentlemen, as Mayor of your city it falls to me to inform you that over the last few hours many nuclear weapons have fallen on Australia. Furthermore it is now clear that we in Cairns are totally isolated, having lost contact with both State and Federal governments. In fact it seems that even our close neighbour, the city of Townsville has been struck by one of these fiendish weapons. An earlier broadcast by the Prime Minister was interrupted by unexplained circumstances and we have not been able to re-establish communications. Please listen for further news as it becomes available.

All emergency service personnel, police and military are to report immediately to their posts. This community has weathered countless cyclones and other natural disasters and with God’s help will deal with this one also.

God Save the Queen”

Council Chambers Cairns City Council


23 February 1984

0900 AEST

“What’s the go then Jim? Where do we go from here? What do we have?” The question addressed by Mayor Ron Davis to the City Manager was not an easy one to answer.

He gave it his best shot:

“ Gentlemen, we have nothing going in or out by road. Marine traffic is limited to small boats, though we do have a Sugar ship docking tomorrow. They left MacKay on the 22nd and when they arrive that’s it….no fuel to go elsewhere. We have food stocks for maybe three weeks with rationing.

The Navy, (with a nod to the Commander of HMAS Cairns) still has considerable fuel stocks for military uses and there are five patrol boats available for limited duties.

Andy Wheetam tells me that they have three domestic passenger jets available plus three DC3s and a dozen or so light aircraft. Again, however fuel stocks are limited and we do not have any idea as to what other airport are still open. Anything else Andy?”

“No mate, not really. We have two Mirages from Townsville that got in on the 22nd, but both have damage from the Townsville blast and aren’t going anywhere….otherwise nothing.” But I think the Commodore here might have something to tell us….that right Tony?”

Commodore Tony Weston RAN, looked across the table at the rest…

“Well yes, maybe. We have picked up what seem to be communications from an RN submarine. She is HMS Valiant, a nuclear attack boat. It’s difficult to be sure but we think she is suffering battle damage and is negotiating the outer Reef up near Cooktown. If she comes here she’ll be able to tell us a lot about what’s going on in the world.”

The Mayor interrupted violently: “Now just hold on one bloody minute Tony, have you invited this submarine here? Suppose the Russians spot it from a satellite? Is that possible? The last thing we want is to draw the crabs here.”

The rest of the group swapped furtive glances and looked at the Navy Commodore.

He sagged in his seat, looking 20 years older than his years…

“I don’t know. Christ on his throne only knows what loose weapons the Soviets still have unused, never mind if there are any of their subs in our area with useable weapons. Just what the hell am I supposed to do……tell the Brits to piss off? They are our allies and fellow mariners in distress. No-one here has any authority to make me do that.”

After the meeting, Wheetam sought out a colleague with the Port Authority, Col Franklin, the Finance Controller:

“Well Col, you’re better placed than most with that place of yours up at Kuranda. If I were you I’d be thinking about staying there instead of coming to work every day. No way the Mayor will hold this lot together….what is he but a damned insurance broker?

The sub worries me. The Russians are bound to be watching out for surviving strategic assets like subs.”

Franklin listened, but made no comment apart from….”You forget Andy, I’m a pommy too, but let’s see what happens.”

28 February 1984

0900 AEST

Cairns Seaport.

The submarine looked huge as it drew up to the wharf, dead black with only the White Ensign lending colour to the sombre picture. There was obvious damage to the sail, and much of the hull was scorched , with bare steel showing through.


High above the scene a certain set of cameras recorded the events and a Soviet cosmonaut, barely alive himself, sitting in his own wastes and bleeding from every orifice carried out his final reporting duty.

It was less than 24 hours later that a Soviet SSN 21 warhead initiated at 1,000 meters above the City of Cairns.
 
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All that remains of the Lone Star State...

Before the events of February 21, 1984, Texas had a population of about 16 million people and a strong oil and gas industry, as well as strong military and defense industries.

After February 21, all of this changed, forever.

According to reports coming in to the emergency capital of Texas at Bryan, where the state legislature had evaucated two days before the Exchange, the following areas were hit:

*The city of El Paso got three, one for the airport, one over downtown, and one over Ciudad Juarez (it is unknown by the state government whether that city was a target, or if it was a near miss).

*Fort Bliss got seven.

*Odessa got a nuclear weapon that exploded over the downtown area. The nuclear weapon aimed at Midland missed and exploded about 20 miles south of the city. (1)

*Lubbock got one in the city itself, one at the airport, and four that hit at Reese AFB.

*Amarillo apparently got two: one over the airport, and one over downtown.

*San Angelo got four: three aimed at Goodfellow AFB and one in the city itself.

*Wichita Falls got hit with five: three aimed at Sheppard AFB, one over the airport, and one over the city itself.

*Carswell AFB, located in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, got four, while the DFW area itself got three times that many.

*Texarkana got one over the downtown area.

*Waco got two, one at the airport and one over downtown.

*Fort Hood got an even dozen.

*The capital of Austin got a dozen, with eight concentrated over Bergstrom AFB and the rest in the city.

*Lufkin and Marshall got one each.

*The Houston-Galveston area was the hardest-hit area in the state (outside of San Antonio). About 13 nuclear detonations occurred in Houston, while one each occurred in the towns along the I-45 corridor, with two occurring on Galveston.

*The Golden Triangle of Beaumont-Port Arthur-Orange was far luckier. The missile aimed at Beaumont overshot Beaumont and exploded over Silsbee, obliterating that town.

*The Bryan-College Station area, along with the Tyler area, are still standing.

*Laughlin AFB near Del Rio was hit with four nuclear weapons, destroying it and nearby Del Rio.

*San Antonio was the hardest-hit area in Texas. Four nuclear detonations occurred at Kelly AFB, two over Lackland, three over Fort Sam Houston, four at Randolph AFB, one at the airport, and seven in the city itself. Of the over three-quarters of a million people remaining in the city, virtually all died.

*Beeville was spared, and is now the center of relief efforts in South Texas.

*Corpus Christi got hit with three nuclear detonations: One over the downtown area, one at the airport, and one at NAS Corpus Christi (2).

*Laredo got hit with five: one over the airport, one over downtown, and three over Laredo AFB.

*McAllen got hit with one nuclear detonation.

*Brownsville got hit with three: One at the airport, one at the port, and one over downtown.

(1) I figured Texas would get lucky.
(2) As much as I hated to destroy my hometown, I can't deny that it would probably be targeted with several, because of the port facilities and the naval base.

My .02 cents (if this helps Gen_Patton, that's OK).
 
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