What Animals Could Have Benefitted Mesoamerican Civilizations?

[CountDVB]

Okay everyone, here is something that could be of interest.

No, this is not what-if certain animals that went extinct survived to our time because this is not allowed and too much to speculate.

Instead, what animals from Europe and or Africa could've thrived in Mesoamerica (i.e. Mexico and Central America) that would have provided the most for the civilziations there.

The idea of this thread came from this thread and their mention of the success of giant elands and from my own reading on them, I can't help but wonder if they could do well over in Mesoamerica.

This is the case since similar threads just consider Europe (which makes sense given colonization), but here I wanna ignore the plausability of how X African civilization could've made it to the Americas because that is not the point.

I stress, that is not the point.

The point is on examining the introduction of these animals to the various climated of Mesoamerica and how it could've influenced the civilizations and such.

 

[wtw]

Whatever is found by and large in the Tropics of Africa and Asia would do well, although not leopards, pumas and jaguars have that niche covered.

 

[CountDVB]

Whatever is found by and large in the Tropics of Africa and Asia would do well, although not leopards, pumas and jaguars have that niche covered.

How would that help out the civilizations though?

 

[wtw]

How would that help out the civilizations though?

Oh it wouldn't other than provide more food, although they could domestic the jungle fowl, and water buffalo and pigs. That is assuming that they do that of course.

 

[CountDVB]

Oh it wouldn't other than provide more food, although they could domestic the jungle fowl, and water buffalo and pigs. That is assuming that they do that of course.

I know, but I figure some animals would work better than others, especially Mexico is a pretty diverse environment

 

[SenatorErnesto]

I'm slightly confused on the premise of the question posed here...

Are you asking what animals if any could be domesticated by the Mesoamericans; or are you asking what already domesticated animals could be given/introduced to Mesoamerican cultures?


Because all the staple European domesticates made it to Mexico/New Spain and boosted the populations of said cultures after colonization....

Or is this a scenario where colonization doesn't happen and trade happens?

 

[CountDVB]

I'm slightly confused on the premise of the question posed here...

Are you asking what animals if any could be domesticated by the Mesoamericans; or are you asking what already domesticated animals could be given/introduced to Mesoamerican cultures?


Because all the staple European domesticates made it to Mexico/New Spain and boosted the populations of said cultures after colonization....

Or is this a scenario where colonization doesn't happen and trade happens?

Basically, what animals not native to Mesoamerica could've been introduced and thrive in the region while also allowing the people of the area to domesticate and thrive.

And I mentioned not just Europe, but other continents. Like, which African animals could've thrived in Mexico (like would a giant eland be able to do well), since some would do better than others in the region.

 

[twovultures]

So the scenario your requesting is: Old World domesticates introduced not just to the Americas but Mesoamerica specifically, that they become adopted by the peoples there, and that they benefit the Native Americans. Bit of a tough order to be honest,

But...I'm thinking a Polynesian introduction of pigs to Mesoamerica is, while very unlikely, possible. These animals will not provide the muscle power to really transform the civilizations there, but pigs are very useful at turning refuse into protein which could be quite helpful, and they're relatively easy to take care of. The Polynesians would not be introducing epidemic diseases, but in the larger cities of Mesoamerica pigs could become incubators for germs, which while it would harm the native population has the potential to release bioweapons against future European invaders.

 

[CountDVB]

So the scenario your requesting is: Old World domesticates introduced not just to the Americas but Mesoamerica specifically, that they become adopted by the peoples there, and that they benefit the Native Americans. Bit of a tough order to be honest,

But...I'm thinking a Polynesian introduction of pigs to Mesoamerica is, while very unlikely, possible. These animals will not provide the muscle power to really transform the civilizations there, but pigs are very useful at turning refuse into protein which could be quite helpful, and they're relatively easy to take care of. The Polynesians would not be introducing epidemic diseases, but in the larger cities of Mesoamerica pigs could become incubators for germs, which while it would harm the native population has the potential to release bioweapons against future European invaders.

Well, like I mentioned earlier, the how isn't important. I'm just wondering which species could potentiall thrive there. It'd be like in modern day introducing an animal from Africa into a matching part of Mexico and then seeing how it would go from there regarding how it could have benfitted the Mesoamericans

 

[twovultures]

Well, like I mentioned earlier, the how isn't important. I'm just wondering which species could potentiall thrive there. It'd be like in modern day introducing an animal from Africa into a matching part of Mexico and then seeing how it would go from there regarding how it could have benfitted the Mesoamericans

Well, if the how doesn't matter...

Camels would not be useful in Mesoamerica itself, but the cultures north of Mesoamerica could benefit from keeping them, and if they develop more centralized society due to trade and warfare coming from camelpower they may follow the cultural precedents of the Mesoamericans for modelling their civilization, thus spreading the Mesoamerican sphere.

Cattle would be invaluable, useful for muscle, useful for meat, and useful as a status symbol in what were highly stratified societies. African and Indian breeds would do better than European ones, naturally. Water buffalo could be useful, though I think they're more useful in areas of South America like Guyana and the Brazilian northeast than in Mesoamerica.

Goats and sheep are useful like pigs except for turning browse and grass rather than refuse into protein. Bonus points for wool, which will be useful in highland Mesoamerica.

Llamas would be very useful in the highland areas of Mesoamerica, just as they were in South America.

Donkeys and horses would be very useful livestock, adding a lot of 'horsepower' as it were to the machine of civilization. I think Mesoamerican society is ripe for a chivalrous class as well, though the terrain of Mesoamerica is definitely not as favorable to the military use of the horse as other parts of the Americas.

 

[Optical_Illusion]

Horse, donkey, pig, chicken. No goats or sheep or cattle, because then you increase the chances of cultures going pastoralist - animal secondary products can replace important sedentary culture vegetable crops and even from meat alone also make pastoral economy more productive than a horse-alone one. Cattle do provide animal power for farming, but this seems less important (e.g. Japan which made no real use of cattle for farming). And that may not so good for sedentary civilization.

Horses and donkey probably more important. Pigs and chickens are maybe kind of substitutable with local domestication events of rabbits and turkeys.

 

[CountDVB]

Horse, donkey, pig, chicken. No goats or sheep or cattle, because then you increase the chances of cultures going pastoralist - animal secondary products can replace important sedentary culture vegetable crops and even from meat alone also make pastoral economy more productive than a horse-alone one. Cattle do provide animal power for farming, but this seems less important (e.g. Japan which made no real use of cattle for farming). And that may not so good for sedentary civilization.

Horses and donkey probably more important. Pigs and chickens are maybe kind of substitutable with local domestication events of rabbits and turkeys.

Yes, but I was hoping for something more specific or out of the box. As in outside of Europe stuff, also figuring out where would be good specifics. Horses possibly though I think the Aztecs had some sort of swine or related.

 

[CountDVB]

Well, if the how doesn't matter...

Camels would not be useful in Mesoamerica itself, but the cultures north of Mesoamerica could benefit from keeping them, and if they develop more centralized society due to trade and warfare coming from camelpower they may follow the cultural precedents of the Mesoamericans for modelling their civilization, thus spreading the Mesoamerican sphere.

Cattle would be invaluable, useful for muscle, useful for meat, and useful as a status symbol in what were highly stratified societies. African and Indian breeds would do better than European ones, naturally. Water buffalo could be useful, though I think they're more useful in areas of South America like Guyana and the Brazilian northeast than in Mesoamerica.

Goats and sheep are useful like pigs except for turning browse and grass rather than refuse into protein. Bonus points for wool, which will be useful in highland Mesoamerica.

Llamas would be very useful in the highland areas of Mesoamerica, just as they were in South America.

Donkeys and horses would be very useful livestock, adding a lot of 'horsepower' as it were to the machine of civilization. I think Mesoamerican society is ripe for a chivalrous class as well, though the terrain of Mesoamerica is definitely not as favorable to the military use of the horse as other parts of the Americas.

Not sure which camelids would work best there up in northern Mexico though.

Hence why the Giant eland striked me as potentially very possible in Mexico in regards to cattle though I cannot speak for Guyana and Brazil in regards to that.

I admit I know little of the highlands for Mexico though I figure the Llamas and their relatives would find some success. Guanacos might be the best one for that.

Yeah, Mesoamerica being pretty jungle-like would mean that we would have to take into consideration on how it would develop.

 

[Dave Howery]

it seems like just about every domesticated animal from the old world would be useful somewhere in the new world. Pigs and water buffalo in the jungle areas, camels and burros in the deserts; horses, pigs, sheep and cattle everywhere else. Goats just about anywhere.

 

[Lenwe]

What about water buffalos instead of cattle? Is well adapted to jungle not really well suited to pastorialist cultures as they áre to dependent to water sources, and a great sources of labor, meat and milk to Jungle adapted people

 

[Alex Zetsu]

How about the European horse? It's ancestor in 35000 BC wasn't all that different that wild horses Przewalski's horses today, so it is conceivable it could have crossed into the Americas and be morphologically similar to horses today (selection pressure in New York-Maryland-Carolinas region wouldn't be thaaaat different than parts of Europe). IIRC Horses went extinct in the Americas around this time, which is a heartbeat in geological terms, meaning the ecological "niche" for a horse is probably still there if there is something for it to each (grasses... yup still there). The Plains Indians made great use of feral horses (horses that escaped the Europeans) that they re-domesticated. The horse would do well for people like the East coast Indian, the plains Indians, the Mayans, and even mountain people if they carved wide enough roads out of the mountains like the Romans did. Of course, without the wheel, no one might make roads in the first place. Ok, forget mountain people.

 

[Richard V]

Other than the usual horses, pigs, and cattle. The Bubal hartebeest would fit as an exotic option for meat, hide, horn. Supposedly domesticated by the ancient Egyptians. It would have similar benefits of the giant eland within tsetse fly range, but was actually a historical domesticate. Shame it wasn’t introduced to Subsaharan Africa.

Outside Mesoamerica, the yak would be pretty useful in cold regions.

 

[Richard V]

Horse, donkey, pig, chicken. No goats or sheep or cattle, because then you increase the chances of cultures going pastoralist - animal secondary products can replace important sedentary culture vegetable crops and even from meat alone also make pastoral economy more productive than a horse-alone one. Cattle do provide animal power for farming, but this seems less important (e.g. Japan which made no real use of cattle for farming). And that may not so good for sedentary civilization.

Horses and donkey probably more important. Pigs and chickens are maybe kind of substitutable with local domestication events of rabbits and turkeys.

I’m going to disagree and say the lack of pastoralism is exactly what doomed indigenous people in the Americas.

While the effect of disease on native population is well understood, it was equally their lack of food security that allowed a 90% fall in population. European colonists cut off their food supplies and starved the population so that their fertility fell dramatically. This was both unintentional, for example when prime agricultural and hunting lands were taken by settlers; or deliberate burning of native villages, crops and food stores.

One of the harder groups to exterminate were plains bison hunters. The introduction of the horse made them much more efficient hunters and they could not be subdued without a government program to kill off the bison they hunted. Sedentary cultures were the easiest to exterminate. Pigs farmers would be easy to deal with as pigs have to be penned and thus could be easily captured.

The hardest tribe to wipe out was probably the Navajo people as they developed the Navajo-Churro sheep, bred for the desert. Both the Spanish and Americans tried to round up and kill off their sheep and almost succeeded. But the pastoralists were just mobile enough to keep a few alive and breed more. The Navajo survived because they were the only native tribe to adopt pastoralism.

Civilizations have been trying to wipe out pastoralists in Central Asia and Mongolia since forever and never succeeded.

 

[ar-pharazon]

I believe it was the chichimeca who first gained horses. They were a nomadic people in modern northern Mexico and fought a forty year guerilla war with the Spanish-they were never able to subdue the chichimeca militarily and the church had to pacify them.

It was really the first time the Spanish lost militarily speaking.

 

[Optical_Illusion]

I’m going to disagree and say the lack of pastoralism is exactly what doomed indigenous people in the Americas.

The topic as I read it is more about what would lead to a faster development of civilization than what would lead to a more robust survival on contact with European settlement?

Though on that topic, in the spirit of debate, considering the Americas as a whole - where groups seem to survive best are in regions too cold or arid for settlement (Alaska or the high Andes for ex), or where more intensive agriculture led to huger population sizes and more "sophistication" of settled life (ideally both!). Pastoralism can improve population sizes in cold, arid zones, but if simplifying to a first approximation, it seems more like you want the latter, large population sizes, to happen more, if that's in a tradeoff with low density pastoralism... So I'd actually still disagree!

Nor that Central Asia isn't a constellation of extinct peoples today. Some sort of pastoral peoples do survive, but specific pastoral people have frequently disappeared as peoples and population genetic turnover is huge compared to the agricultural fringes. Where are the Tocharians, or the Scythians? The Qing more or less wiped out the Dzungars. And who has come out the age of European expansion better, with more autonomy as a population, Asian populations at the fringes with high population density under sea borne colonisation, or Siberian pastoralist peoples, who are very mobile but low density, on the business end of expansion of the Russian empire?