We Call a Rose: A Timeline

[Historico]

We Call a Rose
What If Prince Edmund Tudor, Duke of Somerset survives past infancy
Written by Austin L. Ross

****

Nantes, Brittany

In the grand hallowed halls of the Chateau des ducs de Bretagne lay a man by the virtue of his blood that could potentially leave the realm of the subjugated Bretons, in order to ascend to one of the most influential thrones in all of Christendom. From its appearance, the residency of the Duke of Brittany, the castle stands as an austere fortress, with a sentry walk 500 metres long punctuated by seven towers set into its curtain walls.

The young Duke, who inherited this immense structure by virtue of marriage, knew of the proud history of the urban stronghold in which he lived. The Chateau was built almost a full two decades before his own birth by Duke Francis II and his daughter…the young Duke’s mother-in-law, Anne of Brittany, to defend the independence of the Duchy of Brittany, then under threat from the Kingdom of France. The castle's inner courtyard revealed a ducal palace built of tufa stone which was common for the grand dynastic houses of Europe. Upon it’s first glance, the ensemble is remarkable for its striking whiteness, its elegance and its fine stone carvings, in sharp contrast with the rough exterior walls.

It was in the Chateau, that the young Duke while sitting on the throne with his wife, Duchess Claude of Brittany was rudely interrupted in his studies, by a visitor drenched by this particular weeks steady rain. The Duke, favoring every bit that of his grandfather and namesake, The 1st Earl of Richmond, with his unassuming face and shoulder length auburn tresses.

“I beg for an audience with his majesties the Duke and Duchess of Brittany and Somerset.” The visitor said in a hurried breath and muffled under a thick beard, yet still crisp from years of mastering the King’s English.

“You may speak sir, what in the devil has happened?” The Duke asked, as he laid the book in which he was reading down firmly on his lap.

“It is the King your highness…” The Englishman trailed off as a look of sorrow filled the deep wrinkled lines of his face.

“My God, is it our Henri?” Claude, the softspoken Duchess inquired.

“No your majesty the Dauphin continues to radiate at court with his brilliance. No your majesty, this unfortunate news relates to that of your brother.” The Englishman sighed, and focused his eyes on the duke

“Henry, has there been some sort of accident?” The young Duke responded

“Worse your majesty, as you know The King has been racked with distress over his great matter, which grew worse after the events that took place at the Black Friars Convent this month. It appears that in one of his fits of rage, the King may have pushed his body to the brink of death.” The Englishman stated.

“My god, how are you going to stand there an utter such nonsense.” The Duke roared back in defiance, while attempting the fight back the tears as he knew in his heart that his countryman’s words were of the truth.

“It burdens your heart that I, Charles Brandon 1st Duke of Suffolk, by Act of Parliament present to you, the fore mentioned Duke of Brittany and Somerset…the crown of our realm. From this point forward, you shall be known as Edmund the First, by the Grace of God, King of England and France and Lord of Ireland…God save the King!”

 

[Analytical Engine]

Will be following with much interest.

I wonder how the King of France will react...

 

[stevep]

Will be following with much interest.

I wonder how the King of France will react...

I suspect the idea of Brittany and England being united will prompt a strong, probably military response from France. Which will make things interesting for Edmund.

Although, since while matters have been strained it sounds like Catherine hasn't been divorced Spain/Empire are still technically allies of England and definitely opponents of France. Also it depends on the exact date. If about 1525, which is when the 'Great Matter' reached it's height then France and Charles V are at war and in Feb the French were heavily defeated at Pavia and king Francis captured. As such France may well be in no condition to be hostile to England/Brittany and may well be desperate for friendship, at least in the short term.

A lot would probably also depend on Edmund's own character, behaviour and aims.

Steve

 

[Historico]

Will be following with much interest.

I wonder how the King of France will react...

Thanks AE, The situation in France will depart quite rapidly from TTL'S POD of 1500 with the survival of Prince Edmund, third son of King Henry VII of England. Letme just say know that I believe that every action has an opposite and equal reaction...Where we see this law of physics collide with this timeline remains to be seen

 

[Historico]

I suspect the idea of Brittany and England being united will prompt a strong, probably military response from France. Which will make things interesting for Edmund.

Although, since while matters have been strained it sounds like Catherine hasn't been divorced Spain/Empire are still technically allies of England and definitely opponents of France. Also it depends on the exact date. If about 1525, which is when the 'Great Matter' reached it's height then France and Charles V are at war and in Feb the French were heavily defeated at Pavia and king Francis captured. As such France may well be in no condition to be hostile to England/Brittany and may well be desperate for friendship, at least in the short term.

A lot would probably also depend on Edmund's own character, behaviour and aims.

Steve

Well the exact time of this event featured in the preface, is when King Henry VII after, Catherine made her passionate defense at the Black Friars Convent where the hearings for the divorce were being held,he flea into a fit of rage and caused a blood vessel to burst in the summer of 1529. ITTl its a full blown aneurysm, which caused the young King's early death. Yet the effects of the Duke of Suffolk essentially handing over the crown to Edmund, will not be as an easy a claim to begin with.

The Reasons I chose to write a TL, based on a surviving Prince Edmund for my Tudor Timeline, is the fact that i honestly hasn't been done before. The Idea of having another strong Male Tudor Prince to help King Henry make his once questionably legitimate dynasty into a true force on the continent. I can't wait to really get into the meat of this Timeline, and look forward to all the discussion along the way

 

[stevep]

Well the exact time of this event featured in the preface, is when King Henry VII after, Catherine made her passionate defense at the Black Friars Convent where the hearings for the divorce were being held,he flea into a fit of rage and caused a blood vessel to burst in the summer of 1529. ITTl its a full blown aneurysm, which caused the young King's early death. Yet the effects of the Duke of Suffolk essentially handing over the crown to Edmund, will not be as an easy a claim to begin with.

The Reasons I chose to write a TL, based on a surviving Prince Edmund for my Tudor Timeline, is the fact that i honestly hasn't been done before. The Idea of having another strong Male Tudor Prince to help King Henry make his once questionably legitimate dynasty into a true force on the continent. I can't wait to really get into the meat of this Timeline, and look forward to all the discussion along the way

Historico

OK, a 1529 POD is a bit different. [I was thinking 1525 because when I checked on Wiki that was when it referred to it and the situation would be a lot less favourable to France. Could be interesting times for all concerned.

Steve

 

[Historico]

Historico

OK, a 1529 POD is a bit different. [I was thinking 1525 because when I checked on Wiki that was when it referred to it and the situation would be a lot less favourable to France. Could be interesting times for all concerned.

Steve

Interesting, It does seem like 1525 would be a much better date for Henry's early death, it's just the date I had for the anuersym, and Edmund succession to the throne and ability to hold Brittany at least for a while, due to his marital inheritance.

Any other thoughts, comments, or poker tips before I unleash the next installment?

 

[abc123]

Intresting. Subscribed.

 

[Ravenclaw83]

Subscribed anything about the Tudors is awesome

 

[Stateless]

“It burdens your heart that I, Charles Brandon 1st Duke of Suffolk, by Act of Parliament present to you, the fore mentioned Duke of Brittany and Somerset…the crown of our realm. From this point forward, you shall be known as Edmund the First, by the Grace of God, King of England and France and Lord of Ireland…God save the King!”

It's an intriguing idea, and I look forward to seeing this evolve. Just a tiny nitpick, that he would just be Edmund, by the Grace of God etc. etc., because in England monarchs are only referred to by the ordinal first retrospectively when a second monarch by the same name accedes to the throne. See for example how Mary I was only referred to as Queen Mary until Mary II, or how Queen Anne is not referred to as Anne I, as there hasn't been an Anne II (and isn't likely to be one for a while).

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

You have my attention.
King Edmund, eh? And marrying into Brittany, well, that changes almost everything. Very strategic. Without a doubt the French are going to be pissed off.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

You have my attention.
King Edmund, eh? And marrying into Brittany, well, that changes almost everything. Very strategic. Without a doubt the French are going to be pissed off.

Pretty much. They've lost a key fief just like how the Burgundian Inheritance freed Flanders from French de jure suzerainty.

 

[stevep]

Pretty much. They've lost a key fief just like how the Burgundian Inheritance freed Flanders from French de jure suzerainty.

Not only that but it's not too long since Henry VIII invaded France, albeit that ended fairly amicably, and that England still holds Calais. With losses against the Austrians to the east, although by 1529 things were looking better for France, the French monarchs going to feel rather worried and surrounded.

Steve

 

[mrmandias]

Shouldn't this be Henry VIII (8)

Well the exact time of this event featured in the preface, is when King Henry VII after, Catherine made her passionate defense at the Black Friars Convent where the hearings for the divorce were being held,he flea into a fit of rage and caused a blood vessel to burst in the summer of 1529. ITTl its a full blown aneurysm, which caused the young King's early death. Yet the effects of the Duke of Suffolk essentially handing over the crown to Edmund, will not be as an easy a claim to begin with.

The Reasons I chose to write a TL, based on a surviving Prince Edmund for my Tudor Timeline, is the fact that i honestly hasn't been done before. The Idea of having another strong Male Tudor Prince to help King Henry make his once questionably legitimate dynasty into a true force on the continent. I can't wait to really get into the meat of this Timeline, and look forward to all the discussion along the way

 

[Historico]

Prologue​

Mortalitas parumper Vita​

The Infant Prince Edmund Tudor, Duke of Somerset being presented to Desiderius Erasamus and Sir. Thomas Moore​

Everyone knows that by far the happiest and universally enjoyable age of man is the first. What is there about babies which makes us hug and kiss and fondle them, so that even an enemy would give them help at that age.

Desiderius Erasamus

The history of the Kingdom of England, would have been vastly different had Edmund, then only bestowed upon as the Duke of Somerset at birth, had died during the summer of 1500. He had been a sickly child since birth, and many including his father King Henry VII, did not have faith that his third son would survive. Yet, whether or not it was divine providence, the young Duke of Somerset found enough strength to hang on to the precocious tethers of life which had been given.

Edmund’s survival almost immediately caused a lift in t he respective spirits of his parents; his mother Queen Consort Elizabeth of York was exhausted by the King’s oppressive mother, Lady Margaret Beaufort, constant attempts to belittle her at court and from her own seemingly eternal state of being pregnant. With Elizabeth’s husband’s legacy now ensured with three surviving sons; the enormous pressure Henry continuously placed upon to produce viable heirs was lifted considerably off her thirty-four year old body. Elizabeth could relish the fact that with Edmund being third in line to throne, he most likely would never become King, and thusly be raised in the Humanistic tradition in which she established for her previous children

King Henry VII, however during the summer of which his third son had almost died, was busy wrapping the marital treaty between the King of Scots, James IV with his daughter Princess Margaret Tudor. The marriage was to take place on September, 1503 as she would only be a few months away from turning thirteen. The treaty would also involve one of mutual defense if either Scotland or England was attacked the other would help fight back the threat. However the nearly 30 years old King James IV proved to be just as politically cunning as his English counterpart, as he continued stress the importance of the maintenance of the Auld Alliance with the French.

Whilst the Tudor line had been secured by the survival of the young Prince Edmund Tudor, Duke of Somerset; the House of Valois over the Kingdom of France endured a harsh blow to the future of the realm. With the thirty-eight year old King Louis XII after having two marriages that yet had produced a proper Dauphin from his own loins to take the throne upon his death. As distant it may seem, the French line fell to Louis’ first cousin…the five year old Francis, Duke of Valois son of a known political operator in Louise of Savoy. Francis had proved to be a vibrant and healthy boy since his birth, and the dreams of many Frenchmen that Francis could potentially usher in a new age of stability in the land of the Franks was cut short on June 19th, 1500. While receiving riding lessons at his family estate at the Chateau de Cognac, the young Francis was bucked off his horse and died instantly upon striking the ground. In the wake of such tragic event, the battle over whom would succeed Louis XII on the throne had begun.

Francis of Angouleme, Duke of Valois: September 12 1494-June 19 1500​

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

So the POD is the survival of Edmund but the death of Francis...interesting. I found it weird that that picture, for some reason, reminded me of Edward V. Freaky.

Also wondering. But (going by Wikipedia) supposedly the "chief mourner" at Edmund's funeral was the Duke of Buckingham. So i was wondering if perhaps you would have a closer relationship between the Buckingham family and this new King??? Might be interesting.

 

[Gonzaga]

That's an interesting TL. But in 1500 Francis was still far from be secured as the heir of Louis XII. Anne of Brittany was pregnant 9 times between 1499 and 1512. The luck of Francis was that only twice the children survived, and they were both females. I really don't think he would be considered at that time "the dream of many Frenchmen". Most of them would still be hoping that Anne could give birth to a son.

Anyway, assuming that Louis XII is still unlucky ITTL and Francis is dead then the heir under French Salic Law would be Charles IV of Alençon. Unfortunately, his marriage with the sister of Francis I was childless. If it happens again ITTL, then his heir would be Charles III, Duke of Bourbon.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Earlier Bourbon France, eh?

 

[Historico]

You have my attention.
King Edmund, eh? And marrying into Brittany, well, that changes almost everything. Very strategic. Without a doubt the French are going to be pissed off.

So the POD is the survival of Edmund but the death of Francis...interesting. I found it weird that that picture, for some reason, reminded me of Edward V. Freaky.

Also wondering. But (going by Wikipedia) supposedly the "chief mourner" at Edmund's funeral was the Duke of Buckingham. So i was wondering if perhaps you would have a closer relationship between the Buckingham family and this new King??? Might be interesting.

Well King Henry VII does have incredibly strong ties to the Dukedom of Brittany, where he spent the first 14 years of his life. He had the faux invasion of in support of the Montforts against their Valois overlords in he winter of 1492, so I would assume that if the tide is eventually going to push back against France once more either Henry or his successors might try reclaim the old English lands lol...


I did envision for Edmund's personality to be more Plantagenet York rather than Lancastrian Tudor. The Duke of Buckingham will play a integral role in Edmund's formative years, especially since how increasingly distant Henry VII got in his latter years. All of which will be revealed in due time, Thanks for the comments A!!!

 

[Historico]

That's an interesting TL. But in 1500 Francis was still far from be secured as the heir of Louis XII. Anne of Brittany was pregnant 9 times between 1499 and 1512. The luck of Francis was that only twice the children survived, and they were both females. I really don't think he would be considered at that time "the dream of many Frenchmen". Most of them would still be hoping that Anne could give birth to a son.

Anyway, assuming that Louis XII is still unlucky ITTL and Francis is dead then the heir under French Salic Law would be Charles IV of Alençon. Unfortunately, his marriage with the sister of Francis I was childless. If it happens again ITTL, then his heir would be Charles III, Duke of Bourbon.

Thanks for the help G, I was thinking that since the impressive Gaston of Foix was Louis XII's nephew through his only sister, it would automatically place him as First du Sang to the throne. But I guess this agnatic rules of succession can be kinda of difficult to suss out...