Was the Spanish Empire the last of the ancient style empires instead of the first of the modern colonial ones?

iddt3

Donor
I like the premise that old style colonial empires are morally "better" because of the extra rape and cultural genocide.

But yeah, the Spanish Empire looks more like the British in India than the British in America - which makes sense, because the civilizations in those places has enough cohesion to merit coopting.
 
Inspired by this passage I came across:



Is there a factual basis to this argument? Instead of the empire of Spain being the harbinger of modern colonialism and empire building it was instead the last vestige of the old style empire?
I would first ask what you mean by the old and new style of imperialism.
 
Basically I would say that the fundamental difference was that the Spanish approach was that the inhabitants of the empire were people who needed to be Christianized but other than that they were people (the average Spanish peasant was just as screwed), while the British approach was based on the natives were so racially inferior that it was not worth the effort to teach them anything more than to speak basic English and obey their sahibs.

Not that it was an enlightened "Oh we're so progressive that we allow the natives to continue practicing their faith" approach but more along the lines of "who cares if these [racist slur] continue practicing their stupid superstitions, what I want is them to pay their taxes."
 
I would argue that the Spanish and later on Latin American governments did a similar thing to the US did with their natives. Like Chile and Argentina had a similar expansion to the US and it had the same general results. Again it seemed like the only difference was that the natives in the Spanish colonies had an easier time adopting to some Spanish culture while the North American natives didn’t really do that.
 
I have to agree. The Spanish Empire was quite different, "in spirit" in comparison with other Empires. It still had that medieval "feel" in both organization and meanings of colonization. Probably a byproduct of the Reconquista that was still fresh in their minds, finished the very same year they found out the New World.
And the switch to a more "modern" kind of Empire happened only after the War of the Spanish Succession and that's because the Bourbons replaced the Habsburgs, bringing a new mentality and a different kind of organization (more French-like) to the Empire.

I wouldn't say last, I'd definitely say Russia was
Now this would be my personal candidate for the "Last of the Ancient Empires" title.
I would say Peter the Great more or less changed things in the administrative department, but the Rurikid/Romanov colonization style and organization of the Empire survived way after his death no matter the dynasty in charge. And I would dare to say it didn't change that much until the Russian Revolution happened.
After all, the Russian Empire always felt as "Muscovy but with extra vassals" to me.
 
Spain was not unique in claiming Roman heritage. The Pax Britannica is blatantly descended from the idea of the Pax Romana. Classical education was emphasized by the likes of Cecil Rhodes and Lord Curzon as connecting with the Romans and learning from their empire to apply that knowledge to the British Empire. The idea of the Mare Nostrum was extended to control of all the seas of world and the need to "rule the waves".

The comparison is even more blatant with the British Raj, where administrators referred to the king/queen as an "Imperator," and justifications for ruling India, like enabling a person to travel across the country by rail under one flag, heavily drew from Roman accomplishments (in this case the Roman roads).

There was plenty of concern about "decadence" and a scare that the British would fall into the same "decadence" that Gibbon concluded had ended the Roman Empire, partially why the Victorians focused so heavily on morality.

The greatest enemy of the British were labelled the Hun (admittedly not helped by Wilhelm's speech, but plenty of other epithets could be used rather than a single speech about a conflict where Britain and Germany were on the same side).

As for Russia being an "old-school empire," their expansion into Siberia and Central Asia heavily mirrors European efforts in the Americas. Siberian expansion was akin to French North America and the early days of British Canada, where expansion was driven by the lucrative fur trade.

The Russian expansion into Central Asian and the Caucuses on the other hand was blatant settler-colonialism that has direct parallels to everything the US/Canada did to their indigenous population. There was a clear civilizing mission behind the Central Asian expansion, an expansion to provide living space for Russian settlers, an assimilation program to convert the tribes to Russian and Orthodox norms, systematic massacres, and forced mass deportations. Hell, Prince Kochubei even directly stated that the Circassians were just like Native Americans to visiting Americans.

I would argue that by 1700, the Mughals and the Qing had a better claim to being old-school empires than any European nation, especially the Qing (who were even more stagnant than the Russians from 1700-1911).
 
Inspired by this passage I came across:



Is there a factual basis to this argument? Instead of the empire of Spain being the harbinger of modern colonialism and empire building it was instead the last vestige of the old style empire?
If you don't mind me asking, where did you find this passage?
Anyways, I think the early Spanish Empire could be considered a transition phase between the last ancient empires and modern colonial empires. Remember, of course, that those are man made categories.
 
I like the premise that old style colonial empires are morally "better" because of the extra rape and cultural genocide.

But yeah, the Spanish Empire looks more like the British in India than the British in America - which makes sense, because the civilizations in those places has enough cohesion to merit coopting.
Groups assimilating and/or displacing each other is a process that has occurred for millennia. Many Native American peoples also assimilated and/or displaced each other.
 
Groups assimilating and/or displacing each other is a process that has occurred for millennia. Many Native American peoples also assimilated and/or displaced each other.
Yes and rape and "genocide" were occuring in all corners of the world in multitudes of cultures/civilizations from the dawn of history. I can think of several holy books that contain documentation of such.
 
I would hardly say that the Spanish were administrating their territories as provinces instead of colonies. Government administration was monopolised in the hands of Spaniards born in Spain,
Wasn't that the case only after the Bourbon Reforms? IIRC native nobles and Criollos had some roles in local administration under the Habsburgs.
 
Black Legend so people tends to ignore this
A yes the protestant propaganda that spain was Cain to their Abel. It is a bunch of nonsense, that a lot of people believed. The idea of burning witches being associative with Spain when it was a protestant think for example.
of "who cares if these [racist slur] continue practicing their stupid superstitions, what I want is them to pay their taxes."
It's much more this than anything else.
 
Like Chile and Argentina had a similar expansion to the US and it had the same general results.
Brazil, which is much more mixed than these three countries, fought several wars of extermination or expulsion of natives during its history from its colonial era until the end of the dictatorship in 1985. And partly it does so informally today in the Amazon. The only difference was that the man killing the native probably had native blood.
In relation to missigenation, Catholic powers normally had more missigenation than Protestants.
 
Yes. Just need look the chronicles if the Conquests of America where the Conquistadores give the option of be part of the empire to the Natives nobility with his equivalent to spanish title. A good exemple is the Inca Nobility where they were respected and even have universities where the noble sons can go there. Look in the New Laws of Burgos and can find how good and nice deal seems for the nstives compared by the offer by English, Belgian, french and others.

All that was because Spain was thinking like the Civis of Anexate territory, not conquer and extract resources. The idea is treat that territory as provinces of own Spain, not colonies. The first time the Word COLONIA was showed in Spanish state documents was after the Spanish succession war where the Bourbon ascend as Kings and they have in his mind the idea of a Spain slowly in terms of development and culture, while Spain only tax the 25% of the minibg production in America. The remain go to his home virroyalties. England, france and others dont do that.

Another exemple is the study of native lenguage who was msde by missionary for ease the communication. But nobody do that until centuries later.

@Mitridates the Great

Hernan Cortez's conquistadors killed practically all the men, women, and children of the conquered Tlaxcalan villages, commited genocide of the Otomi and Tecoac tribes, killed 3000 people in Cholula and burnt the entire city, and committed massacres upon the capture of Tenochtitlan, the survivors of whom were enslaved en masse. Please don't excuse what they've done. The conquistadors were horrible
 
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@Mitridates the Great
To be clear, and Im not saying you're saying this, but Mitridates and Paladin are not the same guy

Saying this because your quote gives the impression that you're tagging him while quoting Paladin's comment because they're the same user with different accounts

I figure you more likely were tagging him and quoting the other because you wanted to address them both regarding what they said, and mind you I dont disagree with your response, but just saying this in order to avoid confusion
 
Basically I would say that the fundamental difference was that the Spanish approach was that the inhabitants of the empire were people who needed to be Christianized but other than that they were people (the average Spanish peasant was just as screwed), while the British approach was based on the natives were so racially inferior that it was not worth the effort to teach them anything more than to speak basic English and obey their sahibs.

Not that it was an enlightened "Oh we're so progressive that we allow the natives to continue practicing their faith" approach but more along the lines of "who cares if these [racist slur] continue practicing their stupid superstitions, what I want is them to pay their taxes."
The development of British racial stratification occured much later from the POD's origins so I fail to see how an early 1500s Catholic Tudor England would have the same regards to racial strata of OTL when they'd be going off from the same perspective of "global races" as their fellow Catholic Castilians were in the same 1500s era. It's not set stone yet on what early 1500s England's approach to race would develop centuries later, nor would the "Protestant view" (as some posts stated) could even come existance given the odd fluke of how Protestantism develop post-Henry VIII Tudor's papal divorce. With an earlier POD, Protestantism might not even take off in England in the first place and may be persecuted like the French Calvinists/Huguenots were during that era, ergo pushing England to remain in the Catholic camp (for example, Henry VIII had an actual heir sometime or the elder brother Arthur Tudor lives)

Nevertheless, an early 1500s Catholic England's approach to the Aztec conquest would probably be no more worse than what the Catholic Castilians had done in the same era: allying with various oppressed groups who hated the Aztec Triple Alliance, commit massive atrocities and massacres and possibly burning a city or two like what the conquistadors of OTL had done, and assume control of the region and stomping out rebellions with sheer brutality. Instead of going off of colonisation/settlements based off of the Atlantic islands (Azores/Canaries, etc) like what the Iberian powers have done, the English would base their colonisation/settlement approach based on what they've done on Ireland, most notably the Anglo-Norman and later Tudor incursions of Ireland. The discovery of Aztec gold would be major incentive to keep going, as is Incan silver.

The OTL Spanish and later OTL Mexico's horrific genocides of "rebellious natives" like the Yaquis and the Mayans would be instead conducted by the English/Brits and their post-independent entity (Meshicko/New Britain/Avalon/Columbia/etc) in their pacification campaigns as they expand out.

Remember we're going off of early 1500s Catholic Tudor England whose approach to colonialism would be based off of Ireland

To be clear, and Im not saying you're saying this, but Mitridates and Paladin are not the same guy

Saying this because your quote gives the impression that you're tagging him while quoting Paladin's comment because they're the same user with different accounts

I figure you more likely were tagging him and quoting the other because you wanted to address them both regarding what they said, and mind you I dont disagree with your response, but just saying this in order to avoid confusion
Yeah I wanted to address both problems but I guess I could address Mitridates' post here at a different response.
 
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Yeah I wanted to address both problems but I guess I could address Mitridates' post here at a different response.
It past so many time since i give atention than only gonna clarify this. Mitridates and i, we are friends of internet but usually Mitridates is more... lets say aggresive while i am more detailed and a few times counted i lost the patience. Anyway i dont are what is called a Pink legendist who defend the spanish empire. Of course atrocities happen. Always happen in conflicts and clash of cultures. But what i dont tolerate is the exageration of the things. Lets talk with manners and sources and lets put in the POV of the period... my pov basically is based in the La historia Verdadera de la conquista de nueva españa, writted by a Conquistador as diary of the adventure.. a good lecture if know read spanish for the beautiful expressions.
 
It past so many time since i give atention than only gonna clarify this. Mitridates and i, we are friends of internet but usually Mitridates is more... lets say aggresive while i am more detailed and a few times counted i lost the patience. Anyway i dont are what is called a Pink legendist who defend the spanish empire. Of course atrocities happen. Always happen in conflicts and clash of cultures. But what i dont tolerate is the exageration of the things. Lets talk with manners and sources and lets put in the POV of the period... my pov basically is based in the La historia Verdadera de la conquista de nueva españa, writted by a Conquistador as diary of the adventure.. a good lecture if know read spanish for the beautiful expressions.
My source is Genocide: A World History (New Oxford World History) which is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Genocide-World-History-New-Oxford/dp/019976526X

I've got the Kindle version:
From pg 41 to
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I can't post any more than 3 images per day per alt history site limits and can't really copy the quote since Kindle won't let me but the footnoted book details more about Cortes's conquest. It continues onward concerning more atrocities from the Spanish Empire in Chapter Three
 
I can't post any more than 3 images per day per alt history site limits and can't really copy the quote since Kindle won't let me but the footnoted book details more about Cortes's conquest. It continues onward concerning more atrocities from the Spanish Empire in Chapter Three
Atrocities are always there, yes. The conquistadores were awful. The point is that they weren't uniquely awful. The stuff they did was not unprecedented, and would have been committed by any European power had they been given the chance, Protestant or Catholic. And the fact that you're using an Oxford book is telling: Anglocentric biases which downplay the Anglosphere's crimes in favor of painting the Spaniards in dark tones are common.
 
Atrocities are always there, yes. The conquistadores were awful. The point is that they weren't uniquely awful. The stuff they did was not unprecedented, and would have been committed by any European power had they been given the chance, Protestant or Catholic. And the fact that you're using an Oxford book is telling: Anglocentric biases which downplay the Anglosphere's crimes in favor of painting the Spaniards in dark tones are common.

And using diaries from conquistadors or using Hispanocentric sources are not in any way going to paint themselves or the Spanish Empire in a very good light are not biased? The Oxford book used Cortes's own words as well in his letters to Spain detailing his own accounts on the Cholula trickery and massacre. Downplaying the Spainish Empire's atrocities shouldn't be taken lightly. It is a well researched academic book so attacking it just because of its origins and not of its content isn't convincing me.

Anyways the earlier arguments from the first page dealt with how England was or would actually be WORSE than the Spanish Empire so this u-turn on how Spain, England, or any other European would not be different in dealing with the natives of Mesoamerica is quite frankly a bit odd. But nevertheless, my point earlier on my earlier post was that England wouldn't be any WORSE than Spain so my point still stands.

As I said earlier, an English conquest of the Aztecs wouldn't be any different from Spain in their allying of anti-Aztec folks, attacking and committing civilian massacres similarly to the horrible conquistadors, and then capturing Technotitlan with said allies with such brutality on civilians. As detailed in the book, the Spanish were frankly appalled by the human sacrifices of the "barbarians" (as noted by that humanist contemporary 15th/16th century theologian Juan Ginés de Sepúlveda, even he disliked the Mesoamerican practise), and some like him proclaimed their Catholic culture to be superior to these "barbarians".

Whether or not England would be Catholic or Protestant by this time, any English ruler of Mesoamerica would also probably have the same notion as that of Spain's: saw Aztec's mass sacrifices, become appalled by it, and would immediately try to stamp it out and proclaim their culture as superior just like the Spanish. Cortes and his conquistadors burnt books and destroyed indigenous religious idols and temples and stamped out the "sacrificial religion" so the English would probably be doing the same thing to and implement either Catholicism or Protestantism. Like the Spanish, Lake Texcoco and the entire valley as a whole would probably be drained of water and the newly formed New London city would be built in place of the former centres of the Triple Alliance.

As I stated earlier, Spain's and later independent Mexico's indigenous genocides like the Yaquis and Mayans would instead be dealt by the English and their later independent Anglo-Mexican entity (either called New Britain, Meshicko, Columbia, Avalon, Camelot, New Albion, Vesperia, Aurelia, Zephyria after greek air god of the west, idk I like either names).
 
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