US-Danish War of 1855

[67th Tigers]

The sound controlling access to the Baltic sea is held as a right by the King of Denmark, right to the Swedish shore. By treaty access is unrestricted, but all ships pay a toll directly to the Danish King.

In 1855, the US announced that they were no longer going to pay the toll, and the Danes prepared for war to defend their rights, being fairly confident.

Denmark eventually acquiesed due to fear of the German states to the south to the US buying free passage in perpetuity for a one off payment.

What if the Danes had held their position, and fired upon US ships illegally entering the sound?

 

[Oddball]

The US would most likely declare war (obviousley )

This is followed by US seizes Danish shipping in American controlled waters, and most likely an US occupation of the Danish Virgin Island.

After that, probably not much as neither part is capable of projecting any real amount of power against the other.

After some time a peace is negotiated, were US probably gets the Virgin Islands, but OTOH must pay a hefty sum as companzation for this and access to the Baltic.

 

[David S Poepoe]

I suspect that the Danes will easily crush the United States. Perhaps a contingent of Danish marines will land in Maryland and fight their way and lay seige to Washington City.

 

[Oddball]

I suspect that the Danes will easily crush the United States. Perhaps a contingent of Danish marines will land in Maryland and fight their way and lay seige to Washington City.

No, no. That would be the British, not the Danish

 

[Chengar Qordath]

The sound controlling access to the Baltic sea is held as a right by the King of Denmark, right to the Swedish shore. By treaty access is unrestricted, but all ships pay a toll directly to the Danish King.

In 1855, the US announced that they were no longer going to pay the toll, and the Danes prepared for war to defend their rights, being fairly confident.

Denmark eventually acquiesed due to fear of the German states to the south to the US buying free passage in perpetuity for a one off payment.

What if the Danes had held their position, and fired upon US ships illegally entering the sound?

I would assume a war between the United States and Denmark is going to be a largely naval affair, IIRC the American Navy is not very strong at this time, but could be built up into a respectable force given sufficient time. Assuming the US is willing to commit the time and money needed for a proper naval buildup, Denmark is probably not going to win the war. I doubt the rest of Europe would be inclined to get involved, and other nations which regularly paid the Sound Due would probably be slightly sympathetic towards the Americans.

As far as the effects of such a war go, things could definately get interesting. Presuming an American victory the Sound Due is abolished for the US, and it seems likely that the US might attempt to acquire the Danish West Indies as well. Presumably the Danish would abolish the Sound Due for the rest of the world shortly after for a lump-sum payment as they did in OTL.

In the US, President Pierce's plummetting reputation might be salvaged by a victorious war against Denmark, and even a modest military buildup could have an effect upon the how much materiel and how many trained men are available at the outbreak of the war (IMO the US Civil War would not be averted by a trade war with Denmark). I am not knowledgeable enough in Danish history to speculate on the effects there, but I would imagine the Danish Navy will be battered and Denmark will be in a weaker position when/if war breaks out with the Germans over Schleswig-Holstein.

 

[Nicomacheus]

Might the US also demand control of Greenland? For that matter, if you really want something interesting, the US could demand freedom for Iceland leading to some kind of protectorate status, similar to Cuba after the Spanish American War. This may redirect some Icelanders to the USA (OTL many went to Canada).

I'm also thinking that it gives the USN some interesting forward bases for any potential conflict against Britain. The acquisition of the Danish Virgin Islands might provoke some kind of movement to acquire Haiti, Cuba, or buy other of the Carribean Islands. It may come to no effect, but it may slightly alter the dynamics of the Civil War, since it will unite Northerners, fighting a war to defend their trading rights, and Southerners, who will get more claim to Carribean conquests.

 

[KJPedersen]

The sound controlling access to the Baltic sea is held as a right by the King of Denmark, right to the Swedish shore. By treaty access is unrestricted, but all ships pay a toll directly to the Danish King.

In 1855, the US announced that they were no longer going to pay the toll, and the Danes prepared for war to defend their rights, being fairly confident.

Denmark eventually acquiesed due to fear of the German states to the south to the US buying free passage in perpetuity for a one off payment.

What if the Danes had held their position, and fired upon US ships illegally entering the sound?

I would welcome our new Danish overlords. Jeg vil gerne have mere smoerrebroed. Tak skal du have!

 

[Condottiere]

It would probaly be like the spanish american war.The US and Denmark would go to war.The US would take control of small possesions of Denmark.Denmark would ask for peace and give over several other possesions like the virgin islands and Greenland

 

[Thande]

Interesting idea, 67th. The war itself will probably peter out as mentioned above, but the effects on the two countries could be significant. The US might learn some things which it could use in the Civil War (and might have laid down a bigger navy, perhaps at the expense of the army) while the Danes, if they've been defeated, might acquiesce to Austro-Prussian demands for Slesvig in exchange for protection of the remaining colonies? Maybe.

Might the US also demand control of Greenland? For that matter, if you really want something interesting, the US could demand freedom for Iceland leading to some kind of protectorate status, similar to Cuba after the Spanish American War.

*loud sigh*

 

[MrP]

The laying down of USN vessels could backfire, if the South still goes Rebel and takes some of them with it. A lot of the USN went South and sat about aimlessly, lacking ships IOTL, IIRC.

 

[Thande]

The laying down of USN vessels could backfire, if the South still goes Rebel and takes some of them with it. A lot of the USN went South and sat about aimlessly, lacking ships IOTL, IIRC.

That's also true, not unlike that other thread about the American Navy

What effect would that have? Less effective Northern blockade?

 

[Valdemar II]

Interesting idea, 67th. The war itself will probably peter out as mentioned above, but the effects on the two countries could be significant. The US might learn some things which it could use in the Civil War (and might have laid down a bigger navy, perhaps at the expense of the army) while the Danes, if they've been defeated, might acquiesce to Austro-Prussian demands for Slesvig in exchange for protection of the remaining colonies? Maybe.

Not one and not all the colonies together was worth a tenth of Slesvig.


And I'm not sure that USA would win, Denmark had rather large navy for it size, this doesn't mean that USA is gonna lose, rather that they will negotiad some kind of status que peace.

*loud sigh*

completely agree

 

[Thande]

Not one and not all the colonies together was worth a tenth of Slesvig.

You're right of course. I was just trying to think of what the possible effects on the Slesvig war would be.

 

[Jasen777]

The US might learn some things which it could use in the Civil War (and might have laid down a bigger navy, perhaps at the expense of the army)

The U.S. might build a larger navy, but any money it could get at the expense of the army is going to be insignificant, as the army is just too small.

I think it's safe to say that this would push back the timetable for ACW, which likely puts the South at an even larger disadvantage when they war comes (which is still likely, imo).

 

[MrP]

That's also true, not unlike that other thread about the American Navy

What effect would that have? Less effective Northern blockade?

Probably. If the CSN can actually put together a seagoing squadron the USN will have a far tougher time of things than OTL. IOTL they used every damned floating thing they could find to enforce the blockade and had a huge shortage of officers - partly because of the tininess of the USN, partly because a lot of it had gone South. If the South has even 2-3 good frigates, they can wreak havoc on US merchants around the globe. Norfolk Yards provided the CSS Virginia IOTL, after all, and I'd expect some more construction there IATL.

 

[David S Poepoe]

The U.S. might build a larger navy, but any money it could get at the expense of the army is going to be insignificant, as the army is just too small.

I think it's safe to say that this would push back the timetable for ACW, which likely puts the South at an even larger disadvantage when they war comes (which is still likely, imo).

I've got a strong suspicion that there would be no major funds provided for any naval expansion. In all likelihood once a small force of American warships show up other European countries may make a demonstration in force against the Danes. The war will be fought with the men and materials on hand and probably be over before any ships would be finished. It may give the nation a greater appreciation of the navy, but the Congress was notorious leaving ships on the slips for decades when they quickly cut off funding.

 

[xchen08]

If the navy is expanded, why would any of it end up in Southern hands? OTL, the South got almost no ships. While an army officer could simply quit the army and go south to join a new unit, a southern Navy officer couldn't sail south with his ship, not when the majority of any crew is likely to be Northerner. An expanded fleet in better shape than OTL just means the Northern blockade would be more than a joke earlier. In any case, I think many Southern naval officers remained loyal anyway, being less sympathetic to the plantation slavers than army officers who tend to come from that class.

 

[Dave Howery]

just what is the state of the Danish navy at this time? The USA, as usual back then, had not much of anything, IIRC. If the Danes have a real navy and the US doesn't at the start of the war, then the US is going to get smacked down pretty badly at the beginning....

 

[Fiver]

If the navy is expanded, why would any of it end up in Southern hands?

Exactly. While about 40% of Army officers from southern states stayed with the Union, IIRC, over 60% percent of Navy officers stayed with the Union. and as pointed out, they couldn't exactly take thier ships with them.

An expanded navy from a US-Danish War means the blockade will be more effective than in OTL's Civil War. Any conquests in the Caribbean will not delay the war. One of the major bones of contention was slavery in the territories. Many southern leaders saw adding slave states in Mexico and/or the Caribbean as a remedy for the border states showing less and less support for slavery.

I'd expect the former-Danish Virgin Islands to at best be another version of bleeding Kansas, with pro-slavery advocates trying to pack the vote and the occasional extremist on both sides indulging in a little murder.

More likely the mass of immigration, like in the American west, would come from the north and/or Europe. Southern leadership would be left with a territory that they believe is naturally suited to slavery, yet does not allow it. That's not going to reduce the chance of war.

 

[richie42]

Would this cause a jolt of nationalism, evading the Civil War?