Union and Liberty: An American TL

Status
Not open for further replies.
Interesting…
The Boers (Voortrekkers ITTL, apparently) seem to have had different migration patterns, because Durban is in the ZAR. Pretty amazing though.
As jycee said, the Boers just needed to incorporate the Natalia Republic, which was actually a Boer Republic until 1843 in OTL.

Just got caught up with this interesting timeline. I can't wait for the Russia update!
Thanks!

Yep, cant wait for Ivan and Mecha-Alexander

But I swear, if you make Russia turn and become a Third World/Anarchist/Fascist/Civil War torn and destroyed state that got predominately owned by the Ottomans/Prussians/Austrians (Like every other freakin TL in this site).......
Hehe, I haven't decided which direction Russia will take in the 20th century, but for now the Tsardom is good and strong.
 
Also, I'm leaning toward no Prohibition as well, or at least not of alcohol.
That definitely gets my vote.:cool:
There's a subtle reference here. See if you can figure out what it is. ;)
Am I completely wrong this is where the Rough Riders got famous? Better (erroneously) known as SJ Hill?
There were certainly African-America members of the House of Representatives during the Reconstruction era, but I don't think there were many black senators at a national level.
I seem to recall there being at least one. Hiram Bingham?
The US census historical statistics have Cincinnati at 161k in 1860, so I don't think an increase of 10,000 is out of the question.
:eek::eek: Remind me to shut up when I don't know what I'm talking about.:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Culture #2: Some Sporting Ideas
Update time! Time for more social stuff, in this case, sports!

Culture #2: Some Sporting Ideas

The Pan-Hellenic Games and the First Olympiad:
The Olympic games embodies both the Classical ideals of the nineteenth century as well as the growing internationalism of the era. But the modern games actually had much of their origins in Greece itself, almost a decade before the first Olympic games of the modern era was held. To celebrate the 50th anniversary of the beginning of the Greek Revolution in 1822, King Otto and the Greek Parliament funded a grand sporting exhibition for the Greek people. After the Conference of Berlin, the planners of the Pan-Hellenic Games invited any Europeans to celebrate the arrival of peace on the continent and participate in the games. Only a dozen foreign athletes participated in the Pan-Hellenic Games out of a total 137, but they represented six other nations. In total, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Great Britain, Russia, and Greece played in the Pan-Hellenic Games and laid the ground for a revival of the Olympics a decade later.

In 1877, the Greek philanthropist Evangelos Zappas offered his fortune to fund the creation of an international organization to revive the ancient Olympic games. Other interested European parties followed and the International Olympic Committee was formed and met later in 1877 in Rastatt in Baden[1]. William Penny Brookes, who had previously organized smaller Olympiads in Britain, was elected president of the committee and the IOC began developing the basics of the modern Olympiad. The first IOC meeting established that the games should be open to all nations and emphasized the amatuerism that should be in place in the competition. Later, in 1879, the committee met in Athens and convinced the Greek government to hold the first modern Olympiad in the Greek capital in 1882.

The 1882 Olympic games took place from May 12 to May 19 of 1882 in Athens. While only 256 athletes competed in the 1882 Olympics and only 47 of those athletes were from outside Greece, this was double the number of athletes that the Pan-Hellenic Games had drawn and the games were a sensation in national newspapers around the world. Countries from Europe and both Americas were represented in the games, although there was a notable absence of the Ottoman Empire or its satellites in Serbia, Romania, and Egypt, which forbade its athletes to go. Some of the noted competitors were Dmitri and Grigori Rasputin, two peasant brothers from Siberia. The two brothers had been found by Russian officials and were funded by the Tsar personally to go to Athens. They took gold medals for Russia in the equestrian events and returned home heroes[2]. Also notable was Francis Duquesne, an American from Georgia who edged out Ioannis Xenakis of Greece to win the gold medal in the first international running of the marathon.

Early Baseball:
The late 19th century saw the beginnings of many of the professional sports leagues in the United States today. With cheaper cross-country transportation and the spreading of instant communication networks with the telegraph and later the telephone, organizing larger sports leagues became economically feasible. One of the first sports to benefit from this was baseball. The first baseball league, the Union Base Ball Association, was established in 1863 during the National War. However, it was an amateur league and the teams were primarily situated in the northeastern United States. The first professional baseball league would not be founded until the 1870s.

The first professional baseball league in the United States was the American Professional Base Ball Association, which split off from the UBBA in 1873 after eight teams decided they want to play professionally. These original teams were New York, Brooklyn, Philadelphia, Boston, Hartford, Columbus, Baltimore, and Miami[3]. The APBBA remained relatively static over the next decade, although the Hartford team folded in 1877 and was replaced by a team in Syracuse. While the APBBA was relatively successful, it only had a limited audience in the northeastern United States. Reluctance by the members of the APBBA to expand the association resulted in its stagnation, and the opportunity for other leagues to arise.

The lack of a professional baseball league in the Midwestern United States presented a grand opportunity to Albert Spalding of Rockford, Illinois. Spalding had been playing for Brooklyn since 1878, and tried to urge the APBBA to expand into the Midwest, having played amateur baseball in his youth and knowing how popular the sport had become in the region. The APBBA's foot-dragging caused Spalding to leave Brooklyn in 1884 and move to Chicago. After a year of gathering investment, Spalding founded the Midwestern Baseball League in 1885. The MBL originally had six teams in Chicago, Rockford, Indianapolis, Cairo, Saint Louis, and Milwaukee. The MBL only lasted twelve years with several difficulties with the teams before going bankrupt and being absorbed into the APBBA (by then renamed the American Baseball Association), but Spalding's efforts helped spread professional baseball in the United States and standardize the rules of the sport. Spalding would also later serve as president of the American Baseball Association from 1897 to 1904 as owner of Rockford.

Football Crosses the Atlantic:
During the late 19th century, another new sport managed to catch on in various parts of the United States. This sport was football. Football had originated in Great Britain and was first formalized with its modern rules in 1863 when the Football Association was formed. With the large amount of Irish emigration from the British Isles in the 1860s and 1870s, many immigrants to the United States began playing the game and it became popular in many cities where many Irish settled. From those areas, the sport spread and grew in popularity, especially in urban areas.

Like Great Britain, the United States has more than one national football association that play internationally. This is the result of an interesting quirk of history and highlighted lingering regional identities in various parts of the country. Besides the Football Association of the United States, the country also has national associations representing New England (all states east of New York), and Texas (the states of Houston, Tejas, New Mexico, and Chihuahua)[4].

The New England Football Association, or NEFA, was the first national football association in the Americas, having been founded in 1890. NEFA began once football initially becoming popular with the Ivy League schools in the Northeast and the seven Ivy League schools started an intercollegiate football league. The league eventually dropped its exclusiveness to universities. In 1890, the Ivy League of Football reorganized itself along the regional identity of New England, adding city leagues and removing Columbia, the University of Pennsylvania, and Princeton. This new New England League created the NEFA as an overall way to organize the league and its scheduling, but soon established itself as a football association on the national level.

The Texas Football Association began once Irish immigrants to New Orleans started moving west and bringing their interest in the sport with them. Interest in football grew in Tejas and Houston, and many regional activists, Anglo and Ibero alike, promoted football as a way to revive the Texan regional identity. The Texan Football Association was eventually founded in 1918, two years after the United States Football Association, after several teams in the Texas region protested against longer travel times to the rest of the nation. The USFA met in Saint Louis in 1917 and allowed the formation of the Texas FA a year later.

[1] It's nice to have a small neutral country in Europe other than Switzerland and Belgium. :p
[2] Aristocratic propaganda, gotta love it. Grigori is the famous OTL Rasputin, Dmitri is his younger brother who died as a child in OTL.
[3] I haven't decided how the naming will work for teams yet, so right now I'm just listing the cities.
[4] This isn't set it stone yet, as I'm still not sure if or how far the US will expand into Mexico.
 
Great update, wilcox. It's interesting to see some alternate sports stuff, as many TLs I have seen tend to be purely military and political histories. This kind of fleshing out the world of ATL is what makes a TL truly great (and expect it in mine as well).
 
Great update, Ares is right this little culture stuff is what makes TTL great.

As for the expansion into Mexico, like with California hopefully Rio Grande Rep [1] stays independent or at least semi-independent puppet state. And the same goes for ITTL's Gaelic Catholic Canada. Maybe some sort of Pan-American Union is created at some point, the US is clearly the boss but it has Cali, Rio Grande, Lower Canada (Quebec), Acadia, Upper Canada and Mormon Manitoba (it can annex the rest) as junior partners.

I like how you are keeping local identities alive ITTL, will certainly make the US a much more diverse place. So even if it does turn into an American territorial wanks (there are many other kinds of wanks and many times adding territory is counter productive) at least the different areas will retain their local flavors resulting in less homogeneity in middle America. If we get some language and education laws passed, the ITTL's US could keep some states in the midwest with a majority German and Dutch speakers (hopefully such a law isn't too ASB). [2]

As part of that are you posting another census/demographics update anytime soon, (at least before the 1900s).


[1] What's the demonym for the Rio Grande Rep (or Rio Bravo Rep). My guess is they no longer think of themselves as Mexican, are they Rio Bravenses?
[2] And actually if you manage to keep language and food from homogenizing, including the German and Dutch (yes keep OTL's Kansas dutch speaking, and its Minnesota German) it be alright to annex the rest. Although I fear for Cali's low population density (so maybe still keep Cali independent).
 
Rasputin as an Olympian? Football (not American handegg) in the USA?
:eek:
Indeed. Perhaps a variation of rugby will migrate to the US, but it won't be near as popular as it is in OTL.

Great update, wilcox. It's interesting to see some alternate sports stuff, as many TLs I have seen tend to be purely military and political histories. This kind of fleshing out the world of ATL is what makes a TL truly great (and expect it in mine as well).
Thanks. I really like doing the culture updates because it takes me on very interesting research paths, and it's a great way to flesh out a timeline and how it's developing.

Great update, Ares is right this little culture stuff is what makes TTL great.

As for the expansion into Mexico, like with California hopefully Rio Grande Rep [1] stays independent or at least semi-independent puppet state. And the same goes for ITTL's Gaelic Catholic Canada. Maybe some sort of Pan-American Union is created at some point, the US is clearly the boss but it has Cali, Rio Grande, Lower Canada (Quebec), Acadia, Upper Canada and Mormon Manitoba (it can annex the rest) as junior partners.

I like how you are keeping local identities alive ITTL, will certainly make the US a much more diverse place. So even if it does turn into an American territorial wanks (there are many other kinds of wanks and many times adding territory is counter productive) at least the different areas will retain their local flavors resulting in less homogeneity in middle America. If we get some language and education laws passed, the ITTL's US could keep some states in the midwest with a majority German and Dutch speakers (hopefully such a law isn't too ASB). [2]

As part of that are you posting another census/demographics update anytime soon, (at least before the 1900s).
I'm still not sure if the US will grow more or by how much, but if it does I don't think it will get much bigger than it already is. And I'll probably have another census update before 1900, or at 1900 at the latest.
 
I'm still looking forward to/hoping for the annexation of California. I saw something about that possibly happening a dozen or so updates back, and was wondering if that was still being planned.
 
I'm still looking forward to/hoping for the annexation of California. I saw something about that possibly happening a dozen or so updates back, and was wondering if that was still being planned.

Concurred. To the Pacific! :D
 
Concurred. To the Pacific! :D

They are already at the Pacific! The US got Oregon (and they're probably getting the anglo-half of Cali anyway). Annexing more territory might actually be harmful for the US, there is an actual cost attached to it.

Keep California free!!!
 
Nice to see there's still some debate on whether California should be annexed. I don't think all of California will be incorporated into the United States in the near future, but some parts will be. How much, I'm still not sure though.
 
Nice to see there's still some debate on whether California should be annexed. I don't think all of California will be incorporated into the United States in the near future, but some parts will be. How much, I'm still not sure though.

Based on the post about the development of California, it seems like eventually the US might annex the whole country as the result of a war. The post cites TR doing so as compensation for debt relief. This doesn't sound very plausible (minor territorial readjustment as the result of debt compensation makes sense; not wholesale annexation). However, I still think there's room to make the annexation itself make sense.

The same post seems to indicate that California destabilizes towards the end of the 19th century: presidents are toppled, for example. The rationale for war against the US also suggests inordinate presidential power. I wonder if there's a domestic side to the Californian war that significantly erodes the Californian Republic as a viable force. The annexation then makes sense if we split it into pieces: initial immediate annexation of outlying areas; occupation / administration for the rest. The remainder finds development under the US better than independence, and votes for annexation later on. This makes sense because the US has a significant "Ibero" culture in both Tejas and Cuba. Californios proud of their Spanish heritage might accept and support annexation if the US is being run at the time by, say, President Juan Seguin III.

This might still lead to a bit of overstretch on the part of the US. This only lays more ground for continued states-rights controversies in the 20th century: Californios might have very different ideas about their autonomy as states. This further complicates the tapestry of 20th century politics.

And of course adding some Canadian states would further complicate matters.

All that said, I could well see a rump California sticking around, even while the bulk stays with the US. This has two interesting effects: first, depending on which bits of California stay independent, the rest of the development of the area gets complicated. The water rights and transfers that make the development of Southern California possible, for example, get a lot harder if bits of the wetter north are in another country. Similarly, an enclave in San Francisco Bay surrounded by the US may be a bit...odd. Second, the US will end up a very large country, surrounded by many, many smaller ones (the various Canadian dominions, the Mexican successor states). A TTL equivalent of NAFTA (or a North American Union as proposed above) would be much more of an American sphere of influence: as opposed to a tripartite agreement of OTL, TTL's version is likely to have 8-13 adherents.
 
Since you said US-British relations are cool now, does that mean Britain will try to get revenge in the future for their defeat in the Oregon War?
 
Ugh, I've been slammed with tests this past couple weeks and have a few more this week. And midterms are only just starting! I have about half the next update done, should be able to get it finished by Wednesday.
 
This might still lead to a bit of overstretch on the part of the US. This only lays more ground for continued states-rights controversies in the 20th century: Californios might have very different ideas about their autonomy as states. This further complicates the tapestry of 20th century politics.

I really like this idea. Another interesting possibility is that California is completely annexed at first, but a rump California regains its independence at a later date such as an alternate 1960s/Civil Rights era for whatever reason.

Second, the US will end up a very large country, surrounded by many, many smaller ones (the various Canadian dominions, the Mexican successor states). A TTL equivalent of NAFTA (or a North American Union as proposed above) would be much more of an American sphere of influence: as opposed to a tripartite agreement of OTL, TTL's version is likely to have 8-13 adherents.

At the same time though, you could possibly see the development of E.U.-esque organizations in Central America and the Canadas as a way to minimize America's influence.

Hmm...A Canadian Union. It has a nice ring to it. :cool:
 
Hmm...A Canadian Union. It has a nice ring to it. :cool:

It couldn't be called a Canadian Union because IITL Acadia, Newfoundland, and Manitoba aren't "Canadian". Acadia (New Brunswick, PEI, and Nova Scotia) and Canada (Quebec) have been already made into separate dominions.

Personnaly I like the idea of having a powerful US, surrounded by many small nations, the "Canadian" and "Mexican" states. In a way it guarantees the survival diversity and local identities across the US. If you annex California, there will be a lot of migration from the East into California. These would not only "Americanize"/whiten California but it would also flatten the rest of the US culturally as many settle, and pass through the rest of the US.
 
World map! World map!
This is one of the first TLs I have ever read and it is quite the TL, let me tell you. :D
 
California would still be a major producer of gold and silver, so figuring out how they can get into so much debt that they can't just mine their way out of it could be hard. Although with the 1906 San Fran earthquake (which I somehow completely forgot to mention), that would probably put a large dent in their economy and treasury.
If this isn't already well overtaken by events,;) let me say a thing or three. The gold input into a 19th Century economy was a major source of inflation, so even large debts might not be out of the question. "Digging out" might not be a viable option, as it effectively devalues the currency.:eek: Until Keynes, debt financing was very, very unpopular; balanced budget was the mantra, even in the Depression OTL.:eek::confused:

The SF 'quake need not have been such a major financial crisis, if the fire (which was the far bigger cause of damage) had been fought more effectively & sensibly. (If you avoid the Great Chicago Fire, this is less likely IMO, tho honestly, IDK how you avoid Chicago; all major cities suffered major fires in this era. As I understand it, Chicago's urban planning was so "Wild West", it was a firestorm waiting to happen.:eek:)
 
The SF 'quake need not have been such a major financial crisis, if the fire (which was the far bigger cause of damage) had been fought more effectively & sensibly. (If you avoid the Great Chicago Fire, this is less likely IMO, tho honestly, IDK how you avoid Chicago; all major cities suffered major fires in this era. As I understand it, Chicago's urban planning was so "Wild West", it was a firestorm waiting to happen.:eek:)

He had the architect that redesigned Barcelona IOTL go to the US after the Civil War and help plan out the reconstruction of Memphis and some works in downtown Chicago.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top