The Last Son: Edmund Tudor, Duke of Somerset lives

[Historico]

Edmund Tudor, Duke of Somerset (21 February 1499[1] – 19 June 1500) was the sixth child of Henry VII of England and Elizabeth of York. He was bestowed at birth with the title Duke of somerset, although never formally created. He was christened on the 24th of February. He died at 15 months of unknown causes, and was buried at Westminster Abbey. At the young Prince's funeral his chief mourner was, Edward stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham.

Edmund's elder siblings (by order of birth) were Arthur, prince of Wales, Margaret, queen consort of Scotland, Henry VIII of England, Elizabeth and Mary, Queen consort of France. His only younger sibling was Katherine.

I was searching through the old threads, and I was shocked that this is a POD that hasn't really been touched on before at this board. But What If King Henry VII's son Edmund had found the strength to survive past Infancy? Is it possible that without the stress of having to produce an issue not being as significant for him as his older brothers, that he may outlive his brothers? Which Dynastic House might his Father or later his brother attempt to have Edmund betrothed to in their push for legitimacy through marriage? Assuming that Arthur still dies IOTL, what kind of Relationship would he have with his brother? Would he serve on the Privy council? Or might he get a throne somewhere else on the continent? Also if Henry VIII only produces one Legitimate Heir as IOTL, knowing the Tudor track record of Princes not making past adolescence, what are the chances that the third son King Henry VII might come to the throne as King Edmund III?

 

[Mikestone8]

I was searching through the old threads, and I was shocked that this is a POD that hasn't really been touched on before at this board. But What If King Henry VII's son Edmund had found the strength to survive past Infancy? Is it possible that without the stress of having to produce an issue not being as significant for him as his older brothers, that he may outlive his brothers? Which Dynastic House might his Father or later his brother attempt to have Edmund betrothed to in their push for legitimacy through marriage? Assuming that Arthur still dies IOTL, what kind of Relationship would he have with his brother? Would he serve on the Privy council? Or might he get a throne somewhere else on the continent? Also if Henry VIII only produces one Legitimate Heir as IOTL, knowing the Tudor track record of Princes not making past adolescence, what are the chances that the third son King Henry VII might come to the throne as King Edmund III?

Given Henry VIII's obsession with male heirs, might we get an Act of Parliament introducing Salic (or at least Semi-Salic) Law, so that after Henry's son, the daughters are passed over and Edmund (or any son of his) inherits?

 

[Gonzaga]

I was searching through the old threads, and I was shocked that this is a POD that hasn't really been touched on before at this board. But What If King Henry VII's son Edmund had found the strength to survive past Infancy? Is it possible that without the stress of having to produce an issue not being as significant for him as his older brothers, that he may outlive his brothers? Which Dynastic House might his Father or later his brother attempt to have Edmund betrothed to in their push for legitimacy through marriage? Assuming that Arthur still dies IOTL, what kind of Relationship would he have with his brother? Would he serve on the Privy council? Or might he get a throne somewhere else on the continent? Also if Henry VIII only produces one Legitimate Heir as IOTL, knowing the Tudor track record of Princes not making past adolescence, what are the chances that the third son King Henry VII might come to the throne as King Edmund III?

Before Arthur's death Henry VIII was being educated to follow a religious life and become a member of the clergy. With three surviving sons Henry VII might fill this role with his third son instead of the second. So we could probably have a "Cardinal Edmund Tudor".

 

[Basileus Giorgios]

Before Arthur's death Henry VIII was being educated to follow a religious life and become a member of the clergy. With three surviving sons Henry VII might fill this role with his third son instead of the second. So we could probably have a "Cardinal Edmund Tudor".

And perhaps a break with Rome of some sort could be had by Henry VIII attempting to remove his brother from the clergy to become a secular prince who can create heirs?

On the other hand, imagine a scenario in which Edmund is able to sire three or four sons, but his brother the King suffers even more difficulty than OTL, and none of his marriages end in the survival of a son. With only daughters descended from Henry VIII, but nonetheless an abundance of male Tudors, I wonder if we could see England toppling into civil war on Henry's death?

 

[Gonzaga]

And perhaps a break with Rome of some sort could be had by Henry VIII attempting to remove his brother from the clergy to become a secular prince who can create heirs?

On the other hand, imagine a scenario in which Edmund is able to sire three or four sons, but his brother the King suffers even more difficulty than OTL, and none of his marriages end in the survival of a son. With only daughters descended from Henry VIII, but nonetheless an abundance of male Tudors, I wonder if we could see England toppling into civil war on Henry's death?

I don't think he would need to break with Rome in order to remove his brother from the Church. It happened several times among nobles who were also members of the clergy.

About the scenario you proposed, I think that a possible solution they would find is to marry Henry's daughters to her cousins, ensuring the continuation of the Tudor dynasty and securing a more peaceful succession.

 

[Mikestone8]

I don't think he would need to break with Rome in order to remove his brother from the Church. It happened several times among nobles who were also members of the clergy.

In any case, is it remotely likely that the King's only brother would be allowed to take a vow of celibacy until the succession was considered secure?

 

[DJB001]

I've always loved this POD.

I think You've got to keep the age difference in mind when considering Edmund.

I've always pictured him as Henry VII re-incarnated for some reason...roughly opposite in temperament to Henry VIII. Highly intelligent, not flashy, a Power behind the throne, maybe even the enforcer as the 1520s roll along.

I think Mikestone8 is right...I don't see Cardinal Tudor in the offing. He's only 21 in 1520 and there has to be a cloud over his brother by then. Dynastic politics will come into play. Now the question is foreign marriage or domestic?

I lean towards domestic and see two possibilities:
1) a secondary dynastic linkage to the Yorkists through one of the daughters of the Countess of Contess of Salisbury
2) a 'coup' by the Dukes of Norfolk, getting Edmund married to one of his family (Anne Boleyn any one?. She would be about the right age) I rather like this one for dramatic purposes.


Two things will be vital in his life. His marriage/fertility and his stance on Catholcism. If he has male heirs, I see a rather jealous royal brother. I also see a lot of talk about God's favour if Edmund is Catholic and has sons while Henry pursues the divorce and has problems getting Male heirs.

David

 

[Yorel]

I was searching through the old threads, and I was shocked that this is a POD that hasn't really been touched on before at this board. But What If King Henry VII's son Edmund had found the strength to survive past Infancy? Is it possible that without the stress of having to produce an issue not being as significant for him as his older brothers, that he may outlive his brothers? Which Dynastic House might his Father or later his brother attempt to have Edmund betrothed to in their push for legitimacy through marriage? Assuming that Arthur still dies IOTL, what kind of Relationship would he have with his brother? Would he serve on the Privy council? Or might he get a throne somewhere else on the continent? Also if Henry VIII only produces one Legitimate Heir as IOTL, knowing the Tudor track record of Princes not making past adolescence, what are the chances that the third son King Henry VII might come to the throne as King Edmund III?

Probably more likely Edmund I rather than Edmund III. In a discussion I had with Domenic, he told me that the Anglo-Saxon Kings named Edmund would probably not be counted since the Edwards weren't (Edward I Longshanks was the fourth Edward to rule England).

Edmund Tudor, were he to survive, would be three at the death of his brother Arthur and ten at the death of his father. Since Henry VII had planned his second son to underwent a chuch career, it's possible Edmund enters the Church to replace the fact Henry VIII won't. On the other hand, having a second son might appear as a security were the first to die without sons, so he could stay a laïc.

Edmund's relationship with his brother will depend on several points: his ambition, his view on the Reform and his view on his brother's politics are probably going to be the main issues. In regards to succession, Edmund comes after his nephew Edward VI and nieces Mary I and Elizabeth I. If his relationship is good enough with his brother, it's possible he might end up as Lord Protector and Regent for Edward VI. His accession to the throne doesn't appear likely to me, although one of his children could: Edmund would technically be 104 years old in 1603 (Elisabeth's death), and it was very rare to live to such an age (even for a Royal).

Regarding Edmund's wife, I have no real idea who it could be. My idea would tend to go for a French princess since Arthur then Henry VIII wedded Catherine of Aragon. Since Henry VIII will probably be the one to decide Edmund's marriage, he will probably seek someone to counter-balance the Spanish influence at his court.

 

[Sior]

Isn't this Blackadder?

 

[Historico]

Probably more likely Edmund I rather than Edmund III. In a discussion I had with Domenic, he told me that the Anglo-Saxon Kings named Edmund would probably not be counted since the Edwards weren't (Edward I Longshanks was the fourth Edward to rule England).

Edmund Tudor, were he to survive, would be three at the death of his brother Arthur and ten at the death of his father. Since Henry VII had planned his second son to underwent a chuch career, it's possible Edmund enters the Church to replace the fact Henry VIII won't. On the other hand, having a second son might appear as a security were the first to die without sons, so he could stay a laïc.

Edmund's relationship with his brother will depend on several points: his ambition, his view on the Reform and his view on his brother's politics are probably going to be the main issues. In regards to succession, Edmund comes after his nephew Edward VI and nieces Mary I and Elizabeth I. If his relationship is good enough with his brother, it's possible he might end up as Lord Protector and Regent for Edward VI. His accession to the throne doesn't appear likely to me, although one of his children could: Edmund would technically be 104 years old in 1603 (Elisabeth's death), and it was very rare to live to such an age (even for a Royal).

Regarding Edmund's wife, I have no real idea who it could be. My idea would tend to go for a French princess since Arthur then Henry VIII wedded Catherine of Aragon. Since Henry VIII will probably be the one to decide Edmund's marriage, he will probably seek someone to counter-balance the Spanish influence at his court.

Im not so sure that, Elizabeth or Edward might even be born ITTL. If Edmund survives and stays close to the King there might be more of a push to insulate Henry from heavy involvement with Court Favorites who might try to gain considerable influence from a close relationship with the Boleyn's, Howard's and other. He may fill a Lord Brandon or could come to hate the King and everything he represents...That's why I think it's a cool POD, he's essentially a clean slate...

On Edmund's potential wife, I like the idea of a Valois marriage at this stage, and with King Louis XII having only daughters, there's a good chance that King Henry VII might try to secure a marriage between Edmund and Princess Claude of France. They would have only been eight months apart in age, and despite Claude' physical deformities she may prove to be a strong wife for the Duke. This would most definatley wipe out any OTL marriage between Louis XII and Princess Mary Tudor, and the union may yield a future sovereign over not only the duchy of Brittany but also of France itself? Or is that to much of a stretch as long as Louise of Savoy and Francis are still in the equation?

 

[The Professor]

Im not so sure that, Elizabeth or Edward might even be born ITTL. If Edmund survives and stays close to the King there might be more of a push to insulate Henry from heavy involvement with Court Favorites who might try to gain considerable influence from a close relationship with the Boleyn's, Howard's and other. He may fill a Lord Brandon or could come to hate the King and everything he represents...That's why I think it's a cool POD, he's essentially a clean slate...

On Edmund's potential wife, I like the idea of a Valois marriage at this stage, and with King Louis XII having only daughters, there's a good chance that King Henry VII might try to secure a marriage between Edmund and Princess Claude of France. They would have only been eight months apart in age, and despite Claude' physical deformities she may prove to be a strong wife for the Duke. This would most definatley wipe out any OTL marriage between Louis XII and Princess Mary Tudor, and the union may yield a future sovereign over not only the duchy of Brittany but also of France itself? Or is that to much of a stretch as long as Louise of Savoy and Francis are still in the equation?

Interesting but I rather feel that Louis would arrange for Renate to marry Edmund to avoid the possibility of Brittany under an English King. It will also likely include a clause disavowing their children any claim to France despite them failing under the Salic inheritance anyway.

With Edmund having children how does this affect Henry's marriages and divorces; and subsequent English Reformation?
If Edmund has a surviving male heir by 1530s I can see Henry arranging for Mary to marry her cousin - the Pope would probably prefer this dispensation to divorce - and thus negating any future marriages.
If so then any English Reformation will come during Mary and her husband Henrys reign.

 

[Historico]

Interesting but I rather feel that Louis would arrange for Renate to marry Edmund to avoid the possibility of Brittany under an English King. It will also likely include a clause disavowing their children any claim to France despite them failing under the Salic inheritance anyway.

With Edmund having children how does this affect Henry's marriages and divorces; and subsequent English Reformation?
If Edmund has a surviving male heir by 1530s I can see Henry arranging for Mary to marry her cousin - the Pope would probably prefer this dispensation to divorce - and thus negating any future marriages.
If so then any English Reformation will come during Mary and her husband Henrys reign.

Well I am a big fan of death for a death scenario's, so what if in order to make Edmund live, another Regal figure also has to face an untimely death. What if it's First Prince of The Blood Francois, who dies in that summer of 1500? I would be tempted to not take him out of the picture, because if we can Edmund betrothed to either Claude or Louise and producing a child around 1515, it could cause Louis of Savoy to start ensuring some desperate measures to makesure that the Tudor offspring of the English-Breton child could not inherit the throne.

I know you think that Louis would have made some declaration about removing Edmund's children from the French throne, but I am not sure if that would be the case. For one King Louis XII might live a couple of years longer himself,without his overexertion with trying so hard to produce a male heir in his brief marriage to Mary Tudor. If Louis XII himself does not remarry, than perhaps he could very well live for a couple of more years. IMO, that would be enough time for the Duke and Duchess of Brittany and Somerset to establish themselves at court and potentially push Louise of Savoy out of favor with the old king...

And by the way guys, I think I smell a TL coming along