So this is fairly new, heh. This will be my second TL and it will be a duet TL with @eliamartin65. As per my rules in this TL we will only change one thing and one thing only, what if Philip IV or Philip the Fair did not die from a hunting accident?
The English Charlemagne: A Plantagenet-Capet TL
- Thread starter Liminia1
- Start date
I do not deny that I am very interested in reading what you come up with for this TL, given that defining Edward III as a new Charlemagne will be ( absurdly ) almost reductive, given that with the control of France's resources, he can really aspire to surpass him, becoming the one who reforms the ancient glory of Rome ( since I see almost no one capable of effectively opposing him, not even the current HRE Louis IV or Charles of Luxembourg or the Anjous ) therefore other than the coronation in Aachen, here the aim is to go directly to the Urbe ( which moreover is "free" from the control of the pontiff, therefore the Romans would be more than happy to acclaim the new Augustus from Britain in the Capitol Hill, provided he spent some time in the city )
although I believe that the English name will most likely disappear in the long run, more likely it will be replaced, something along the lines of Norman, perhaps Frankish or Latin or even the same adjective as Romanorum ( so as not to associate the royal/imperial dynasty with too specific a place ( England ) but rather to create a broader group to describe the entire population of the " kingdom "
Last edited:
Edward will definitely be hungrilly eyeing scotland and ireland, plus maybe his succesors will be more receptive to Manuel II (Byzantine emperor) calls for help
I wouldn't put my hand on the fire, that Edward could be mainly interested in Scotland or Ireland, considering the much more prestigious, populous and important France ( and the possibilities of continental expansion that it can facilitate ) I would say that will Edward considered the Scotland would certainly be conquered, to avoid problems on the northern border but otherwise the kingdom's focus will be on the continent, but I can easily see a future Plantagenet Emperor coming to the rescue of his colleague in Constantinople, given that historically the dynasty had important precedents in the crusades compared to the Otl Valois
Last edited:
Exactly, Edward, the Black Prince and his other prestifious generals will bring scotland to heel for good
They will definitely have more resources to aid peter agaisnt his half-brother henry
here these will certainly be among the main objectives of the future Plantagenet rulers ( as well as HRE, especially its Italian parts ) but not only as support for allies, but rather even as lands to conquer
I mean, he can't be a Charlemagne figure if he doesn't conquer eastwards as well
Though...IDK what the Pope is going to think of all this when the Plantagenet empire surrounds the Papal States on both sides.
This is definitely an interesting idea to ponder Nuraghe, as you discussed in the other thread. I do worry about what might happen after Edward III, though: even if he manages to succeed to such glorious heights and surpass Charlemagne and becomes a new Augustus, it is worth considering what happens after him. After all, we saw what happened once Charlemagne was cold and in the ground and poor Louis the Pious suffered a near death experience + his planned division of the empire. While I think one could argue that a "revival" of Charlemagne's empire within France and England definitely be a bit more centralized than Charlemagne's and could probably pass without division to a single heir, it is definitely a system that is based on the person that governs. Assuming this Edward III proves to be up to stuff and a great king/emperor, it's just as likely that his son (or grandson, or whatever probable successor) may not measure up sufficiently.
While France and England are merely separated by the channel and the English nobility (if one can say that) are still mostly Norman—that is, French in culture as well as speech. One cannot help but wonder might come about from such a union, where France would no doubt be the prime 'kingdom' as the wealthiest and largest. I could certainly see possible issues if Edward III proves too favorable towards his new barons, though at least the English nobility will finally be able to breathe a sigh of relief: for a long time they have straddled two horses, in that it was not uncommon for them to have estates in England as well as in France / Normandy. It all being under one sovereign will make things much simpler.
I think it's just as likely the whole thing could be a tinderbox just waiting to explode.
Should we see Edward III as an Augustus of sorts, it would be interesting to ponder his policy vis-a-vis the East... especially with the remnants of the Frankocratia in Greece, which suffered from chaos throughout the 14th century. The Byzantines were certainly not in great shape in the 1340s, but have not fallen as far as they would in the next century. Just as Charlemagne pondered a match between Rotrude and Constantine VI, might the new Augustus seek a match with the Palaiologos? The 14th century was the heyday of foreign Augustas—Andronikos III wed Adelheid of Brunswick and Anna of Savoy, while Andronikos II had married Anna of Hungary and Yolande of Montferrat. They could do worse than a princess whose father dominates western Europe.
I mean, he can't be a Charlemagne figure if he doesn't conquer eastwards as well
Though...IDK what the Pope is going to think of all this when the Plantagenet empire surrounds the Papal States on both sides.
He certainly won't be happy when he realizes that he is now definitively surrounded, but considering what the Popes in Otl did in similar situations ( Avignon captivity or Habsburg rules ) I don't see them trying to do anything crazy, especially in fear of being deposed or worse seeing Rome sacked ( which would mean for the Pope on duty, probably risking being lynched by the Roman crowd ) but if the Plantagenet sovereign will respect the papal sovereignty, I don't see create "" too many problems "" between the two powers, in particular if the former offers the Pope homage ( whether small territorial donations or funding for the city of Rome itself ) without forgetting that Edward III and his successors could always use the same strategy that Henry VII and Ludwig IV exploited in Otl, i.e. spending time in the eternal city and governing with the consent of the SPQR ( which for 2 centuries acted as a counterbalance to the papal power in the Urbe ) Furthermore, in the long term, I don't see that the capital of this Carolingian Empire 2.0 will remain in London ( it's too far away to effectively administer the most disparate regions of the kingdom )a city in a more strategic position would probably be the real choice ( I'm thinking of one of the 3 Rhenish cities or Aachen itself, given that they would allow rapid communication and ability to intervene with the various "provinces" of the Empire ) although I imagine that the management of everything will still be extremely itinerant, with Paris, London and other places maintaining a " national " relevance ( Carthage, Antioch, Thessaloniki and Milan style in imperial Rome )
for the rest I quite agree with your reasoning @DrakeRlugia, the survival of this state will depend on the sovereign's ability to exercise direct influence on his nobility ( even in distant places ) but also on his policy of creation and subsequent development of a central administration as homogenized as possible ( which was extremely complicated and which in OTL took centuries ) without forgetting the necessary infrastructures to facilitate communication in the kingdom, without forgetting the possible conflicts within the state, between the different factions fighting for the power/favor of the sovereign, I agree that we will most likely see the Palaiologos trying to marry a Plantagenet princess, as it would be a resounding success for them from a diplomatic and prestige point of view
P.s
DrakeRlugia, it's nice to know that you read my comment on the other thread, regarding the political situation in Rome in this period, am I honored that you find it interesting
Last edited:
Chapter 1: The withering of Capet 1316 - 1328
The situation of England and France has always been one of dominance over the other, the ascension of the Plantagenets under Henry II would turn France into a defect Plantagenet empire with Aquitaine, Brittany, Normandy, Anjou and Auvergne all falling under the control of the ever powerful English king. The death of Henry II would doom English dominance in France as Richard the Lionheart would spend the English treasury three times over with his crusade, capture, and ransom. John would be even worse with the confiscation of Normandy, Alencon, Anjou, Maine, loss of Suzerainty for Brittany. Henry III who ascended the throne at the age of 9 would basically screw over English ambitions through civil war and revolt. France would be blessed with various great rulers such as Saint Louis XI and Philip II Augustus who restored a great portion of the French domains back to the crown, perhaps the greatest achievement of this would be Philip IV of France who married Joan of Champagne and Navarre bringing one of the richest states of France back to the crown of France: Champagne.
Philip IV of France was at the top of the world in 1316. His marriage policies were pillars of stability and further expansion, with a triple marriage with the third most powerful state beside France, the rich county of Burgundy which would nearly guarantee that sometime in the future it would be inherited by France, while the marriage of Isabella of France to Edward II of England would make the King of England his son-in-law and hopefully make it far easier to rein in the most powerful ruler in France, the King of England. Yet, the curse of the Templars would begin to haunt Philip. The pope died within a couple of months after the trial of the legendary Knights Templar and while going hunting, Philip nearly died himself if not for his trusty steed saving him in the nick of time. This belief would seep in to the king as he became quite paranoid and scared that divine retribution from the Knights Templar would arrive and the tower de Nesle affair would no doubt strengthen that belief that God was against the king.
Philip IV of France was brutal, deceptive and brilliant, cheating Edward I out of Aquitaine, and constantly began to expand his realms. The particular land he would look to was the rich county of Flanders which he would fail in the battle of the Golden Spurs. This continuous expansion of the realm would ruin Philip's finances with a very public spat with the pope: Boniface VIII. This relentless pursuit of material wealth would also lead Philip to dismantle one of the most powerful crusader orders in Europe. The knights templar. A complete pursuit of material wealth allowed Philip to dismantle the large debt that he owed to the Templars who were a practical multinational corporation. Continuous pressure levied by Philip on Pope Clement V would force the order to dissolve and alleviate the financial strain on Philip. The words of the grandmaster however would haunt Philip IV: "God knows who is wrong and has sinned. Soon a calamity will occur to those who have condemned us to death." The death of Pope Clement V shortly afterwards would begin the start of the calamity that would ruin the House of Capet and Philip would watch it crumble down and could do nothing.
The tower de Nesle affair was the one thing that would ruin Philip IV's grand plans of stability and expansion within the French realm. After years of investigation, a forced confession by the two knights at hand would implicate Margaret of Burgundy, wife of Prince Louis of Capet and Blanche of Burgundy, wife of Prince Charles of Capet. These two marriages would haunt Philip IV for life and while the marriages would soon be dissolved by the pope. It would be the only beginning of the complete downfall of Philip IV's grand plans for his dynasty, while Prince Louis would swear up and down that his children were legitimate, the nobility did not completely trust it, it would especially tragic for Louis' death would give Philip IV a grandson, Prince John. He would die within a couple of days much to Philip's grief. Joan the last child of Louis would be heavily scrutinized by the nobility as they believed that she was not a legitimate child of Louis but as she grew up, she showed an aptitude in governance and brilliance which Philip began to blast propaganda to promote her eventually allowing her to inherit all of her grandmother's titles of Navarre, Champagne, and Brie.
The happy marriage of Prince Philip and Joan of Burgundy would arguably be the rock in the trust in the monarchy as the tour de nesle affair did not directly implicate Joan as an adulter merely just a witness who was bribed into silence and their passionate, genuine love match between the two did them solid in getting Joan released from her imprisonment as part of the investigation and yet, the king would not be pleased as the couple only bore daughters, Philip needed a grandson in order to succeed him. The birth of Philip in 1316 would please him immeasurably and yet his death a year later would once again greatly sorrow him. The final French prince would fare no better as Charles would go through two more wives before his death in 1328 with all of his children except one more granddaughter named Blanche ironically would live pass Philip. It would be this succession crisis that would spark rivalries between the remaining princes, as Philip and Charles began to cast doubt and ask their father to name them as successor instead of young Joan, with a mixture of sexism, force of will and belief in bastardization. Philip would remain ambiguous and evasive on the subject until all of his sons' deaths but with all the vague and ambiguous wording, it would leave a chaotic succession afterwards, one which if not handled well would be properly exploited by any claimant to the throne. The discovery of old outdated succession laws saw as non-female inheritance and Salic law would shake the crown's succession even further and be used by the various claimants to their own ends. The complete destruction of the Direct Capetian line with the death of Prince Charles would haunt Philip as he began to look for a proper successor, and it would be his daughter the she-wolf of England that would be his only chance of salvation.
Queen Isabella of England, daughter of Philip IV or the Fair would be the catalyst to the union between England and France, and yet to Philip the most troubling of his children. It would be her that would spark the investigations regarding the tour de Nesle affair but England began to slowly crumble under Edward II, with his court favourites and objectively terrible governance of the realm. The loss of Bannockburn would be a humiliation for England and would cause a war between the nobles led by the queen against the king and his royal favourites. This headache for Philip would also present a golden opportunity, his grandson Edward of Windsor was the only grandson he had and Isabella wished to push him onto the throne of England, which Philip immediately promoted believing that if he played his cards right amongst the nobility he would also inherit all of the English fiefs into France as well by making Edward his heir. This would succeed but much to Philip's horror the same evil that plagued Capet returned to Isabella as very strong rumours began to circulate that she had a lover, Roger Mortimer while Edward's heritage was definitely secure since the rumours allege that it began in Flanders long after Edward's birth, Philip could not be ever more angry as his grandson was practically shut out of government and his ascension could not even be secure but right now his eyes looked north towards Flanders, the greatest thorn besides England to the King of France.
The succession of France would be running throughout Philip's mind and this was quite the problem, Charles of Valois was the closest male relative to Philip IV by Salic succession law which while never used in France since the time of Charlemagne began to set precedent when Philip would marry Joan to Edward. This marriage approved by the papal dispensation would grant Edward the kingdom of France by right of primogeniture through his wife and Edward had enough French blood to be considered as a candidate but the issue was the power now given to the Burgundians, and Valois. Who both began to back their various claims to the throne especially concerning was the claim of Joan of Burgundy who claimed since her descendants were legitimate due to the propaganda that Philip himself boosted in order to secure his own dynasty's reputation, meanwhile Charles of Valois began to promote his Salic law with the nobility divided between the two as neither wanted an Anglo-French union under the marriage of Edward and Joan.
Philip IV of France was at the top of the world in 1316. His marriage policies were pillars of stability and further expansion, with a triple marriage with the third most powerful state beside France, the rich county of Burgundy which would nearly guarantee that sometime in the future it would be inherited by France, while the marriage of Isabella of France to Edward II of England would make the King of England his son-in-law and hopefully make it far easier to rein in the most powerful ruler in France, the King of England. Yet, the curse of the Templars would begin to haunt Philip. The pope died within a couple of months after the trial of the legendary Knights Templar and while going hunting, Philip nearly died himself if not for his trusty steed saving him in the nick of time. This belief would seep in to the king as he became quite paranoid and scared that divine retribution from the Knights Templar would arrive and the tower de Nesle affair would no doubt strengthen that belief that God was against the king.
Philip IV of France was brutal, deceptive and brilliant, cheating Edward I out of Aquitaine, and constantly began to expand his realms. The particular land he would look to was the rich county of Flanders which he would fail in the battle of the Golden Spurs. This continuous expansion of the realm would ruin Philip's finances with a very public spat with the pope: Boniface VIII. This relentless pursuit of material wealth would also lead Philip to dismantle one of the most powerful crusader orders in Europe. The knights templar. A complete pursuit of material wealth allowed Philip to dismantle the large debt that he owed to the Templars who were a practical multinational corporation. Continuous pressure levied by Philip on Pope Clement V would force the order to dissolve and alleviate the financial strain on Philip. The words of the grandmaster however would haunt Philip IV: "God knows who is wrong and has sinned. Soon a calamity will occur to those who have condemned us to death." The death of Pope Clement V shortly afterwards would begin the start of the calamity that would ruin the House of Capet and Philip would watch it crumble down and could do nothing.
The tower de Nesle affair was the one thing that would ruin Philip IV's grand plans of stability and expansion within the French realm. After years of investigation, a forced confession by the two knights at hand would implicate Margaret of Burgundy, wife of Prince Louis of Capet and Blanche of Burgundy, wife of Prince Charles of Capet. These two marriages would haunt Philip IV for life and while the marriages would soon be dissolved by the pope. It would be the only beginning of the complete downfall of Philip IV's grand plans for his dynasty, while Prince Louis would swear up and down that his children were legitimate, the nobility did not completely trust it, it would especially tragic for Louis' death would give Philip IV a grandson, Prince John. He would die within a couple of days much to Philip's grief. Joan the last child of Louis would be heavily scrutinized by the nobility as they believed that she was not a legitimate child of Louis but as she grew up, she showed an aptitude in governance and brilliance which Philip began to blast propaganda to promote her eventually allowing her to inherit all of her grandmother's titles of Navarre, Champagne, and Brie.
The happy marriage of Prince Philip and Joan of Burgundy would arguably be the rock in the trust in the monarchy as the tour de nesle affair did not directly implicate Joan as an adulter merely just a witness who was bribed into silence and their passionate, genuine love match between the two did them solid in getting Joan released from her imprisonment as part of the investigation and yet, the king would not be pleased as the couple only bore daughters, Philip needed a grandson in order to succeed him. The birth of Philip in 1316 would please him immeasurably and yet his death a year later would once again greatly sorrow him. The final French prince would fare no better as Charles would go through two more wives before his death in 1328 with all of his children except one more granddaughter named Blanche ironically would live pass Philip. It would be this succession crisis that would spark rivalries between the remaining princes, as Philip and Charles began to cast doubt and ask their father to name them as successor instead of young Joan, with a mixture of sexism, force of will and belief in bastardization. Philip would remain ambiguous and evasive on the subject until all of his sons' deaths but with all the vague and ambiguous wording, it would leave a chaotic succession afterwards, one which if not handled well would be properly exploited by any claimant to the throne. The discovery of old outdated succession laws saw as non-female inheritance and Salic law would shake the crown's succession even further and be used by the various claimants to their own ends. The complete destruction of the Direct Capetian line with the death of Prince Charles would haunt Philip as he began to look for a proper successor, and it would be his daughter the she-wolf of England that would be his only chance of salvation.
Queen Isabella of England, daughter of Philip IV or the Fair would be the catalyst to the union between England and France, and yet to Philip the most troubling of his children. It would be her that would spark the investigations regarding the tour de Nesle affair but England began to slowly crumble under Edward II, with his court favourites and objectively terrible governance of the realm. The loss of Bannockburn would be a humiliation for England and would cause a war between the nobles led by the queen against the king and his royal favourites. This headache for Philip would also present a golden opportunity, his grandson Edward of Windsor was the only grandson he had and Isabella wished to push him onto the throne of England, which Philip immediately promoted believing that if he played his cards right amongst the nobility he would also inherit all of the English fiefs into France as well by making Edward his heir. This would succeed but much to Philip's horror the same evil that plagued Capet returned to Isabella as very strong rumours began to circulate that she had a lover, Roger Mortimer while Edward's heritage was definitely secure since the rumours allege that it began in Flanders long after Edward's birth, Philip could not be ever more angry as his grandson was practically shut out of government and his ascension could not even be secure but right now his eyes looked north towards Flanders, the greatest thorn besides England to the King of France.
The succession of France would be running throughout Philip's mind and this was quite the problem, Charles of Valois was the closest male relative to Philip IV by Salic succession law which while never used in France since the time of Charlemagne began to set precedent when Philip would marry Joan to Edward. This marriage approved by the papal dispensation would grant Edward the kingdom of France by right of primogeniture through his wife and Edward had enough French blood to be considered as a candidate but the issue was the power now given to the Burgundians, and Valois. Who both began to back their various claims to the throne especially concerning was the claim of Joan of Burgundy who claimed since her descendants were legitimate due to the propaganda that Philip himself boosted in order to secure his own dynasty's reputation, meanwhile Charles of Valois began to promote his Salic law with the nobility divided between the two as neither wanted an Anglo-French union under the marriage of Edward and Joan.
Last edited: