The Anglo/American - Nazi War
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Winston Smith
Banned
A truly awesome update once again, but only 8 CVBG? Isn't that a little small? Then again, if you have aerospace dominance, naval power becomes a bit less potent. Interesting to read about the rise of the Freedom Party; also the Nine-Day War ended with a bang, didn't it?
...and so concludes one of the most horrifying yet fascinating timelines on this forum.
By the way, who won the 2008 US Presidential Election?
By the way, who won the 2008 US Presidential Election?
Congratulations on this timeline, Calbear! You've spent years of hard work on it, and I can tell you it's well worth it.
Two questions:
Can we have a map of the world in 2012 and some GDP/capita data, etc. Perhaps a map with whatever the equivalent of HDI is?
How do the African nations align themselves? Are there any aligned with India, the USSR, or China, or are they all A4-allied nations?
Two questions:
Can we have a map of the world in 2012 and some GDP/capita data, etc. Perhaps a map with whatever the equivalent of HDI is?
How do the African nations align themselves? Are there any aligned with India, the USSR, or China, or are they all A4-allied nations?
Dan Reilly The Great
Banned
Well, that was possibly one of the best timelines ever written on this site. I'd be curious to see how the rest of the 21st century plays out with such strongarm tactics being used by the A4 powers to maintain global hegemony.
On the carriers, it would seem that they are somewhat redundant in TTL's circumstances, what with the far more widespread nature of A4 bases versus US military bases, as well as the ability to strike anywhere on the world with incredibly short notice(even shorter than with the usage of carriers IOTL), and the fact that they seem perfectly capable of sending a very effective message to would-be aggressors(loved the "death card" move BTW). It would seem that just about everything that a carrier is good for is already handled by something else.
On the carriers, it would seem that they are somewhat redundant in TTL's circumstances, what with the far more widespread nature of A4 bases versus US military bases, as well as the ability to strike anywhere on the world with incredibly short notice(even shorter than with the usage of carriers IOTL), and the fact that they seem perfectly capable of sending a very effective message to would-be aggressors(loved the "death card" move BTW). It would seem that just about everything that a carrier is good for is already handled by something else.
And... is this going to be the last update?
Not to worry, all that means is that we can write stories now for the other thread without having to worry about canon as we know everything up to our day now.
Thank you CalBear, for a truly Epic series.
US dominance. Total and complete. Package it in an 'A4' wrapper if you choose, but the US had command of the orbitals, and the decree about no launches except from A4 launchers means its over for any potential rival.
Stettin proves that this US is not going to take any BS.
The most plausible US wins scenario I've ever read.
Well Done.
Mike Turcotte
US dominance. Total and complete. Package it in an 'A4' wrapper if you choose, but the US had command of the orbitals, and the decree about no launches except from A4 launchers means its over for any potential rival.
Stettin proves that this US is not going to take any BS.
The most plausible US wins scenario I've ever read.
Well Done.
Mike Turcotte
WOW.
Congratulations. I move that this be counted among the site's best timelines and posted under its own URL.
Congratulations. I move that this be counted among the site's best timelines and posted under its own URL.
Agreed. And what's more, it'll make it prohibitively expensive or impossible to get at it in case it's useful sometime in the far future. I suggest it instead be put in some out-of-the-way part of the Moon.
1876 was won by 1 EV, and Teddy Roosevelt won EVs as a third party in the early 20th century. Just had to point that out
I thought the same but then notice he said first election since 1872 in which more than three candidates won EVs. 1912 and1924 (and OTL 1948, 1960, and 1968) all had exactly 3 candidates win EVs. In 1872 Grant's losing opponent died before the EVs were cast in December, so the electors basically cast them for whomever they pleased.
Anywho... quite a techno-wank this epilogue is! But it was a lot of fun to read. The Prussian War bit at the end was rather terrifying! Just when you think the A4 have gotten complacent... artificial asteroid strikes against civilians just one week into an insurgency!!!
The one thing that 'concerns' me is the A4 openly giving India AND Latin America the finger by restricting the use of orbital launchers. I don't think either of the two enormously economically and politically powerful blocs would stand for such a complete violation of sovereignty and freedom. Instead, I'd think either / both would allow an ostensibly 'nonpartisan' UN commission access to launch sites to make sure no 'secret' packages are being sent up.
As much fear, mistrust, and hatred much of the world has for continental Europe, I'm not sure the A4 could or would enforce such a ban on economic friends and allies who are also democracies.
As for the Prussian Uprising, wow... that's quite some nasty business there, quite a graphic demonstration that the terms of all the treaties enforced on 'Germany' will remain enforced to their fullest extent...
As much fear, mistrust, and hatred much of the world has for continental Europe, I'm not sure the A4 could or would enforce such a ban on economic friends and allies who are also democracies.
As for the Prussian Uprising, wow... that's quite some nasty business there, quite a graphic demonstration that the terms of all the treaties enforced on 'Germany' will remain enforced to their fullest extent...
CalBear, this has been a truly wonderful timeline, and I have a number of questions for you. My apologies if they've already been answered.
What is the total world population, and various regional populations? I imagine Europe is much different with the war deaths, and America as well with the different demographics with the war/baby-boom. Did China have anything equivalent to the one-child policy? What have India's population growth rates been? India seemed to develop much faster than OTL, at least with regards to space flight and nuclear weapons, but how much did that accompany greater economic development and/or lower population growth rates? Was there an equivalent of the green revolution? What year was the pill invented, was there any equivalent of the sexual revolution, and what are government policies on birth-control? For example, what is the Vatican doing in this world and was there anything like Roe v. Wade in America?
What is the status of English in this timeline? English is already the lingua franca in OTL, and with the dominance of the A4 I imagine it's even more widespread. Have more countries adopted English as an official language, how widespread is it as a secondary language?
Lastly, what is the status of the US Dollar? In OTL it's the international reserve currency, and is the official currency of Panama, Ecuador, El Salvador, East Timor and some other territories. I imagine such policies are even more widespread TTL, but do you have any specific ideas?
Again, wonderful timeline. Been quite the pleasure to read.
What is the total world population, and various regional populations? I imagine Europe is much different with the war deaths, and America as well with the different demographics with the war/baby-boom. Did China have anything equivalent to the one-child policy? What have India's population growth rates been? India seemed to develop much faster than OTL, at least with regards to space flight and nuclear weapons, but how much did that accompany greater economic development and/or lower population growth rates? Was there an equivalent of the green revolution? What year was the pill invented, was there any equivalent of the sexual revolution, and what are government policies on birth-control? For example, what is the Vatican doing in this world and was there anything like Roe v. Wade in America?
What is the status of English in this timeline? English is already the lingua franca in OTL, and with the dominance of the A4 I imagine it's even more widespread. Have more countries adopted English as an official language, how widespread is it as a secondary language?
Lastly, what is the status of the US Dollar? In OTL it's the international reserve currency, and is the official currency of Panama, Ecuador, El Salvador, East Timor and some other territories. I imagine such policies are even more widespread TTL, but do you have any specific ideas?
Again, wonderful timeline. Been quite the pleasure to read.
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Yes, imagine if someone tried to do that today, even if they had space superiority--it's totally unthinkable. China, India, etc. aren't *that* behind the UN that they will just roll over and take it. (Although India seems to be going for the underseas route, anyways).
It's also...interesting...that this TL hews to what, the First Law of AH (always a better space program)? I mean, this is really a rather more harsh environment for space than IOTL--no Soviet confrontation to drive activity, no Germans to help out (in the US particularly). If anything, I would have expected that space development would be somewhat more backwards by now than IOTL, at least in terms of the heights (in practical terms probably fairly similar, since that's mostly commercial or conventional military applications).
Finally, I'm going to put some more technical objections forwards, this time to mass drivers--while quite practical for Lunar use, they really aren't for use on Earth. The atmosphere's too much of a problem, as is not crushing your payload with g-forces (you need ridiculously long tunnels to get around that, ones that make the Chunnel look like nothing). Chemical rockets are the way forward unless you put in a launch loop, maybe, or figure out nanotubes for space elevators (and *those* have lots of problems).
The A4 , in the afterword (where I admittedly let my Endless Summer side get out and stretch a bit) has become the best/worst kind of hyper-power.
They are actually very much on the side of the Angels in many ways, very big on Freedom, Bold Print Capital F, when it comes to a country's internal activities (with the notable exception of Germany, where the distrust borders on the pathological) and in the area of trade, although they look at "free trade" meaning exactly that, open on both sides. They are also seriously committed to the democratic system of 1 man, 1 vote and self determination, again with the serious exception of Germany, which will, ATL NEVER be allowed to reunite.
That is the good side, there is another, and it isn't quite so pleasant. The A4, especially the United States, assumes it knows what is best for the whole damned world. Wars of aggression are BAD. You are not allowed to wage one Period DOT! If your neighbor is stacking up their own citizens like cord wood, and you want to stop them... Well, you can't, not unless the A4 says its okay. You aren't going to be allowed to fire things up in orbit yourself, we'll be glad to do it for you, and do it cheaper than if you did it yourself, but... you really can't be trusted to have unlimited access to orbit, you might use that access for bad purposes. We'll be sure that everything is according to Hoyle, you can trust us.
Now the A4 would never be so crude as to actually threaten you, they are way past that. They showed their beliefs in Liberia, reinforced their superiority over the USSR, and KILLED 260,000 people as demonstration of force in Stettin. I know this T/L has made mega-deaths seem almost common, but read that again...TWO HUNDRED-SIXTY THOUSAND people, in the blink of an eye, to make a point.
That is the not so angelic side.
They are actually very much on the side of the Angels in many ways, very big on Freedom, Bold Print Capital F, when it comes to a country's internal activities (with the notable exception of Germany, where the distrust borders on the pathological) and in the area of trade, although they look at "free trade" meaning exactly that, open on both sides. They are also seriously committed to the democratic system of 1 man, 1 vote and self determination, again with the serious exception of Germany, which will, ATL NEVER be allowed to reunite.
That is the good side, there is another, and it isn't quite so pleasant. The A4, especially the United States, assumes it knows what is best for the whole damned world. Wars of aggression are BAD. You are not allowed to wage one Period DOT! If your neighbor is stacking up their own citizens like cord wood, and you want to stop them... Well, you can't, not unless the A4 says its okay. You aren't going to be allowed to fire things up in orbit yourself, we'll be glad to do it for you, and do it cheaper than if you did it yourself, but... you really can't be trusted to have unlimited access to orbit, you might use that access for bad purposes. We'll be sure that everything is according to Hoyle, you can trust us.
Now the A4 would never be so crude as to actually threaten you, they are way past that. They showed their beliefs in Liberia, reinforced their superiority over the USSR, and KILLED 260,000 people as demonstration of force in Stettin. I know this T/L has made mega-deaths seem almost common, but read that again...TWO HUNDRED-SIXTY THOUSAND people, in the blink of an eye, to make a point.
That is the not so angelic side.
The one thing that 'concerns' me is the A4 openly giving India AND Latin America the finger by restricting the use of orbital launchers. I don't think either of the two enormously economically and politically powerful blocs would stand for such a complete violation of sovereignty and freedom. Instead, I'd think either / both would allow an ostensibly 'nonpartisan' UN commission access to launch sites to make sure no 'secret' packages are being sent up.
As much fear, mistrust, and hatred much of the world has for continental Europe, I'm not sure the A4 could or would enforce such a ban on economic friends and allies who are also democracies.
As for the Prussian Uprising, wow... that's quite some nasty business there, quite a graphic demonstration that the terms of all the treaties enforced on 'Germany' will remain enforced to their fullest extent...
How free is international travel?
If it's relatively free in the West, there might be a danger of people from Europe upset about Stettin to come to A4 countries to conduct terrorist reprisals, since overt uprisings aren't going to work.
If the goal is pure revenge, one could focus on people who (they think) voted for the governments who ordered the attack*, but a really smart thing to do would be to sabotage A4 government's space industries to cause friction with non-A4 states. If the A4 launch capacity is harmed any degree, it might become harder for the A4 governments to keep up the "we'll do it cheaper" promise and more likely to cause an A4 vs. non-A4 crisis.
*Imagine if some Iraqi whose family was killed by an errant U.S. bomb came to a Republican Party meeting in some rural county where nobody expects this sort of thing and shot everyone. Probably easier to come from Europe TTL than Iraq OTL.
Of course, sabotaging a mass driver is easier said than done...
If it's relatively free in the West, there might be a danger of people from Europe upset about Stettin to come to A4 countries to conduct terrorist reprisals, since overt uprisings aren't going to work.
If the goal is pure revenge, one could focus on people who (they think) voted for the governments who ordered the attack*, but a really smart thing to do would be to sabotage A4 government's space industries to cause friction with non-A4 states. If the A4 launch capacity is harmed any degree, it might become harder for the A4 governments to keep up the "we'll do it cheaper" promise and more likely to cause an A4 vs. non-A4 crisis.
*Imagine if some Iraqi whose family was killed by an errant U.S. bomb came to a Republican Party meeting in some rural county where nobody expects this sort of thing and shot everyone. Probably easier to come from Europe TTL than Iraq OTL.
Of course, sabotaging a mass driver is easier said than done...
I actually toyed with space elevators, but they were just a bridge too far, and they were not the sort of system that worked into the storyline. The space race ATL was still there, just in a different way. The United States was bound and determined to have the upper hand in any future war, from day one (sort of how OTL turned out, but even more pronounced). Space offered that. Someone looked up and thought, "you know, it is a LOT easier to throw something off the top of a building to the ground than to throw something up". From there everything stays internally logical, at least I think it does.
The militarization of space is, in case it wasn't clear, ripping the innards out of the average American. Its bad enough that an actual viable third party has coalesced around it (the Liberal Democrats) in hopes of restoring some sense of proportion. ATL U.S. (and the rest of the A4) is the military-industrial complex run amuck on a grand scale.
The mass drivers are, well , huge. Saipan is six by nineteen miles, and the driver uses a LOT of that space, Guam is even larger. The design I imaged is almost race track shaped, with speed building as the package moves don the track. Each package has a small chemical booster that provides the lasyt bit of energy to reach orbit. I will make no secret that what I know about mass drivers is the result of about three hours of research, if others are actual experts in the field, I can't hope to argue technical details, but the various sources I looked at (during my admittedly limited research) all seemed to agree that this sort of design is technically solid. The Darwin complex is considerable larger than the Marianas facilities, nothing like having a continental landmass to work with when it comes to scale. They are also the single most expensive construction project in human history, with all of the A4 putting major funds into the pie (I did mention the whole tax/innards ripping thing). Still, compared to CBG @ $12 billion a pop, the ROI isn't too bad.
The run out years in the T/L postscript (which, to my utter horror, wound up running THIRTY pages of Word document) represent one possible world. There are almost an infinite number of others, many of the far darker than the one I eventually chose to post (you think the T/L itself was grim...).
India, BTW, will almost certainly wind up the world's richest nation in ATL 21st Century. While the A4 is spending billions on weapons, India is spending hundreds of millions on commercially viable science. Unless the A4 figures out a way to actually mine the Asteroid Belt (and even I don't dream THAT big), sooner or later they are going to be buying a whole lot of stuff from the Indians
Again, thanks very much for the comments and the probing questions.
The militarization of space is, in case it wasn't clear, ripping the innards out of the average American. Its bad enough that an actual viable third party has coalesced around it (the Liberal Democrats) in hopes of restoring some sense of proportion. ATL U.S. (and the rest of the A4) is the military-industrial complex run amuck on a grand scale.
The mass drivers are, well , huge. Saipan is six by nineteen miles, and the driver uses a LOT of that space, Guam is even larger. The design I imaged is almost race track shaped, with speed building as the package moves don the track. Each package has a small chemical booster that provides the lasyt bit of energy to reach orbit. I will make no secret that what I know about mass drivers is the result of about three hours of research, if others are actual experts in the field, I can't hope to argue technical details, but the various sources I looked at (during my admittedly limited research) all seemed to agree that this sort of design is technically solid. The Darwin complex is considerable larger than the Marianas facilities, nothing like having a continental landmass to work with when it comes to scale. They are also the single most expensive construction project in human history, with all of the A4 putting major funds into the pie (I did mention the whole tax/innards ripping thing). Still, compared to CBG @ $12 billion a pop, the ROI isn't too bad.
The run out years in the T/L postscript (which, to my utter horror, wound up running THIRTY pages of Word document) represent one possible world. There are almost an infinite number of others, many of the far darker than the one I eventually chose to post (you think the T/L itself was grim...
). India, BTW, will almost certainly wind up the world's richest nation in ATL 21st Century. While the A4 is spending billions on weapons, India is spending hundreds of millions on commercially viable science. Unless the A4 figures out a way to actually mine the Asteroid Belt (and even I don't dream THAT big), sooner or later they are going to be buying a whole lot of stuff from the Indians
Again, thanks very much for the comments and the probing questions.
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