The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery

[Gukpard]

I practice Falun Gong. Its teachings are basically Buddhist and Daoist in nature (and no, not of the "Yellow Turban rebellion" sort) so things like notions of racial superiority or political power don't come into the picture at all. Due to a combination of cultural unfamiliarity and CCP propaganda, there is a huge amount of misconceptions about what Falun Gong is or isn't, so I'm not surprised even Sinophiles think it is another Taiping waiting to happen.

To reroute the discussion away from non-AH, I'd say that something like the Cabal would actually be a fairly novel development for Chinese history, no less than what communism was IOTL. As far as I'm concerned these guys would have to had made the idea of a "Han race" (itself largely an invention of modern times) so central to their ideology that it diminishes all of the philosophy and religion that came before it. It seems the idea ITTL is that the Cabal sprang forth from the KMT but it could just as well be the result of a Juche-like branch of the CCP seizing the reins.

Since the nazis kept active in this timeline for long and had some influence in Tibet, the Cabal could have sneaked some nazi literature from there before taking power and used it as a base to develop it's ideology

 

[Bbone91]

I kind of imagine that, even if the Cabal “succeeded” in heir plans, they’d still fall apart from infighting, as Calbear said that there’s a lot of backstabbing and covert removal of rivals among the major leaders.

 

[Aluma]

I kind of imagine that, even if the Cabal “succeeded” in heir plans, they’d still fall apart from infighting, as Calbear said that there’s a lot of backstabbing and covert removal of rivals among the major leaders.

Likely, but I dont think the Cabal would care
They see themselves like Europe braving the New World, so even if they collapse into a bunch of infighting pieces that'd still be fitting with that analogy and result in a Chinese World

 

[Dementor999]

Likely, but I dont think the Cabal would care
They see themselves like Europe braving the New World, so even if they collapse into a bunch of infighting pieces that'd still be fitting with that analogy and result in a Chinese World

There might be a major possibility of A4 and India balkanizing the shit out of China weeks after the Cabal launches their plague and fails to accomplish their "Han Planet" goal.

 

[Gillan1220]

There might be a major possibility of A4 and India balkanizing the shit out of China weeks after the Cabal launches their plague and fails to accomplish their "Han Planet" goal.

India already had to end their alliance with the Cabal after finding this horrendous act of planning to infect the world a bioweapon.

 

[Dementor999]

India already had to end their alliance with the Cabal after finding this horrendous act of planning to infect the world a bioweapon.

Logically so, hence why I said that India would be in favor of turning the post-Cabal China to German Statelets 2.0.

 

[Gillan1220]

Logically so, hence why I said that India would be in favor of turning the post-Cabal China to German Statelets 2.0.

India was their main supporter up until the 2010s. India and Cabal China were "partners" at some point because India was critical of the post-war world led by the A4. India herself was not invited into the committee of post-war powerful nations (perhaps because India isn't Anglo enough? Remember the A4 has been criticized as "Fuck Yeah, Anglo supremacy!).

I think the craziness of the Cabal China and the bioweapons would at least end the Cold War between A4 plus allies and India/CIS nations.

 

[Judge Dredd34]

India was their main supporter up until the 2010s. India and Cabal China were "partners" at some point because India was critical of the post-war world led by the A4. India herself was not invited into the committee of post-war powerful nations (perhaps because India isn't Anglo enough? Remember the A4 has been criticized as "Fuck Yeah, Anglo supremacy!).

I think the craziness of the Cabal China and the bioweapons would at least end the Cold War between A4 plus allies and India/CIS nations.

I thought it was mentioned and you even liked the past comment that it isn’t a “Cold War”. “Without communism and socialism being exported because there is no Cold War, Chavez won't rise to power. It might be a second-world country, unlike OTL.”

There’s mild disagreement over A-4 policies and actions, as the two factions don’t like each other. They aren’t however trying to overthrow each other’s government, forcing their economic system on other countries, and bringing neutral countries into their fight. That phrase is an exaggeration of the tense relationship of the two blocs, and a disservice to the millions of people who died IOTL over it. Please stop using that word, it’s not accurate and underplays the agreement both India and the A-4 have (something the USSR and NATO never had).

For context the death toll of the OTL Cold War:

Joshua Goldstein of Foreign Policy magazine estimated 180,000 deaths per year, or over 7 million died over the course of the Cold War(12 March 1947 – 26 December 1991).

 

[Dementor999]

India was their main supporter up until the 2010s. India and Cabal China were "partners" at some point because India was critical of the post-war world led by the A4. India herself was not invited into the committee of post-war powerful nations (perhaps because India isn't Anglo enough? Remember the A4 has been criticized as "Fuck Yeah, Anglo supremacy!).

I think the craziness of the Cabal China and the bioweapons would at least end the Cold War between A4 plus allies and India/CIS nations.

Either end or be brought into temporary truce in order to fight Cabal maniacs before it's too late.

 

[Gillan1220]

I thought it was mentioned and you even liked the past comment that it isn’t a “Cold War”. “Without communism and socialism being exported because there is no Cold War, Chavez won't rise to power. It might be a second-world country, unlike OTL.”

There’s mild disagreement over A-4 policies and actions, as the two factions that don’t like each other. They aren’t however trying to overthrow each other’s government, forcing their economic system on other countries, and bringing neutral countries into their fight. That phrase is an exaggeration of the tense relationship of the two blocs, and a disservice to the millions of people who died IOTL over it. Please stop using that word, it’s not accurate and underplays the agreement both India and the A-4 have (something the USSR and NATO never had).

For context the death toll of the OTL Cold War:

Joshua Goldstein of Foreign Policy magazine estimated 180,000 deaths per year, or over 7 million died over the course of the Cold War(12 March 1947 – 26 December 1991).

Right, the A4 and allies weren't in a Cold War with India and the CIS. So what should the proper term be? A4-India split? (just like how the Sino-Soviet split is coined in OTL)?

What was India trying to accomplish anyways with forming the CIS which included Indonesia, France, the Chinese Nationalist Confederacy (AKA the Cabal), and the rump Soviet Union?

 

[Judge Dredd34]

Either end or be brought into temporary truce in order to fight Cabal maniacs before it's too late.

What truce? How can you put a truce to a war that never happened? India-A-4 have very different disagreements and values in play compared to OTL. Who contrary to what some people in the chat think, were not enemies and never fought even by proxy. Name one incident outside diplomacy where they funded their enemies (and I don’t mean Cabal), spied on each other, and invaded other countries simply for a proxy conflict. No Afghanistan, no Operation Condor, and no Cuban Missile Crisis.

 

[Dementor999]

What truce? How can you put a truce to a war that never happened? India-A-4 have very different disagreements and values in play compared to OTL. Who contrary to what some people in the chat think, were not enemies and never fought even by proxy. Name one incident outside diplomacy where they funded their enemies (and I don’t mean Cabal), spied on each other, and invaded other countries simply for a proxy conflict. No Afghanistan, no Operation Condor, and no Cuban Missile Crisis.

Good point. I apologize for my ignorance on TTL's aspect.

 

[Judge Dredd34]

Right, the A4 and allies weren't in a Cold War with India and the CIS. So what should the proper term be? A4-India split? (just like how the Sino-Soviet split is coined in OTL)?

What was India trying to accomplish anyways with forming the CIS which included Indonesia, France, the Chinese Nationalist Confederacy (AKA the Cabal), and the rump Soviet Union?

I think the proper term should be (in my opinion) the “cold engagement”. It’s not a war if they haven’t directly or indirectly fought each other.

It was an attempt to provide an alternative to A-4 dominance in a pact that was much more friendly to dictatorships, disillusioned democracies and non-European (or Euro-dominant) states, there’s no implication that it was anything outside a security/economic pact. If it was something the A-4 was afraid of, do you think the U.S. government wouldn’t have couped Brazil to get them out of the CIS pact (or for that matter start a war over it). Vietnam is part of the pact, and no one would accuse them as being unfriendly to the A-4 (or A-4 interests for that matter). India refused to even sign an agreement with the Cabal to break ties with the U.N/A-4.

I’m not saying there isn’t tension between the pacts (nor am I bringing this up to annoy you or the rest of the chat). I’m just saying we shouldn’t use words that carry a lot of weight in OTL, to describe very different situations and very different relations between two powers.

@Dementor999 No need to apologise, and I apologize if I was a rude. I’m just saying what I think, I’m glad you responded and I appreciate the commentary.

 

[Gillan1220]

I think the proper term should be (in my opinion) the “cold engagement”. It’s not a war if they haven’t directly or indirectly fought each other.

It was an attempt to provide an alternative to A-4 dominance in a pact that was much more friendly to dictatorships, disillusioned democracies and non-European (or Euro-dominant states) states, there’s no implication that it was anything outside a security/economic pact. If it was something the A-4 was afraid of, do you think the U.S. government wouldn’t have couped Brazil to get them out of the pact (or for that matter start a war over it). Vietnam is part of the pact, and no one would accuse them as being unfriendly to the A-4 (or A-4 interests for that matter). India refused to even sign an agreement with the Cabal to break times with the U.N/A-4.

I’m not saying there isn’t tension between the pacts (nor am I bringing this up to annoy you or the rest of the chat). I’m just saying we shouldn’t use words that carry a lot of weight in OTL, to describe very different situations and very different relations between two powers.

Now that you mentioned it, "Cold Engagement" seems to be a proper statement.

The A4 tolerates dictatorships so as long as there are no genocides, human rights abuses, and wars of aggression especially when it comes to expansionism. You are correct that India formed the CIS to counter A4 dominance. As you mentioned too Brazil is also on the verge of splitting from the pact of the A4 (unlike OTL where Brazil is a Major Non-NATO ally since 2019).

So far most A4 friendly countries are Poland, Vietnam, the Philippines, Mexico, Kenya, Nigeria, and other Western-aligned countries of OTL.

 

[Dementor999]

I think the proper term should be (in my opinion) the “cold engagement”. It’s not a war if they haven’t directly or indirectly fought each other.

It was an attempt to provide an alternative to A-4 dominance in a pact that was much more friendly to dictatorships, disillusioned democracies and non-European (or Euro-dominant) states, there’s no implication that it was anything outside a security/economic pact. If it was something the A-4 was afraid of, do you think the U.S. government wouldn’t have couped Brazil to get them out of the CIS pact (or for that matter start a war over it). Vietnam is part of the pact, and no one would accuse them as being unfriendly to the A-4 (or A-4 interests for that matter). India refused to even sign an agreement with the Cabal to break ties with the U.N/A-4.

I’m not saying there isn’t tension between the pacts (nor am I bringing this up to annoy you or the rest of the chat). I’m just saying we shouldn’t use words that carry a lot of weight in OTL, to describe very different situations and very different relations between two powers.

@Dementor999 No need to apologise, and I apologize if I was a rude. I’m just saying what I think, I’m glad you responded and I appreciate the commentary.

@Judge Dredd34. Thanks.

 

[George Carty]

What was India trying to accomplish anyways with forming the CIS which included Indonesia, France, the Chinese Nationalist Confederacy (AKA the Cabal), and the rump Soviet Union?

I don't think Cabal China is in the CIS, although France and the rump Soviet Russia (I don't think "Union" is appropriate, since it doesn't include any territory outside today's Russian Federation) are.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

They see themselves like Europe braving the New World, so even if they collapse into a bunch of infighting pieces that'd still be fitting with that analogy and result in a Chinese World

Futhermire, they might invoke Social Darwinism to claim that this new Warlord Era would cause only the fittest Chinese to live and rule.

 

[Pax_Nihil]

Futhermire, they might invoke Social Darwinism to claim that this new Warlord Era would cause only the fittest Chinese to live and rule.

Ah, that copout reasoning that always gets whipped out to explain why the losers side is only going to bounce back more powerful from the failure they just suffered... lololol

 

[Gukpard]

If I could travel to the AANW universe and bring something back, I would take all the vinyl LPs I could. I wonder how the American warm war songs and the German hymns of that time sound like.

 

[Aluma]

I would take all those Rods of God
Very useful this time of the year