Shamanic Empire?

[Eldritch Po l i t b u ro]

Does anyone know of any instances in history were a modern monarch of a major European power was presented with the opportunity to embrace shamanistic beliefs and practices? I wonder what the effects would be of a major European empire abandoning christianity for a shamanic or christian-shamanic hybrid belief system. Could any king or emperor have enforced his conversion upon his subjects and his empire? I imagine such a neo-mystical empire being quite "infected" with the widespread consumption of pyschoactive plants, fungi, and other substances not to mention a largely overhauled cultural framework. Could such an empire last long against militaristic neighbors and competitors and internal resistance to its own shamanic reformation? Alternatively, might an "infected" empire seek to aggressively expand its mysticism just as it had previously sought to expand christianity?

The first question is of course wether or not any monarch was offered and even remotely considered listening to the teachings of mystical shamans from some conquered part of his empire. Any candidates? I'm thinking perhaps a Spanish King or perhaps a Czar, but all of the European powers controlled areas where indigenous people still practiced varying degrees of shamanism.



I realize this might be completely ASB, but i'd appreciate if some at least entertained the idea. thanks.

 

[Dante]

I think your best bet is to have Finland or maybe even the Scandinavian countries never fully embrace Christianity and ending up with a half Christian half Norse religion.

As for a King of one of the major states switching religions I doubt it. most of the continent was staunchly Christian from the fall of Rome on and so his subjects would raise up in revolt, not to mention the fact that a non-Christian on the throne means that the throne is vacant in the eyes of the pope and the rest of Christian Europe

 

[Philip]

I wonder what the effects would be of a major European empire abandoning christianity for a shamanic or christian-shamanic hybrid belief system.

Not going to happen. You're best bet is to either (a) have an existing group (Bulgars? Avars?) survive but never convert or (b) have a hybrid faith develop early on and then have its practitioners establish a state. Maybe something along the the lines of the Mari Traditional Religion.

Could any king or emperor have enforced his conversion upon his subjects and his empire?

Do you mean the king converts and then enforces the conversion on his subjects? No. It is more likely that the king converts and then fails to wake up the next morning.

I imagine such a neo-mystical empire being quite "infected" with the widespread consumption of pyschoactive plants, fungi, and other substances not to mention a largely overhauled cultural framework. Could such an empire last long against militaristic neighbors and competitors and internal resistance to its own shamanic reformation?

One wonders how accurate your image of a 'shamanist' state is. The pre-Islamic Turks seem to have little trouble keeping with their 'militaristic neighbors'

Alternatively, might an "infected" empire seek to aggressively expand its mysticism just as it had previously sought to expand christianity?

Look at the thread Riding the Eternal Blue Sky.

 

[imperialaquila]

Yes- Riding the Eternal Blue Sky is a very good TL, especially for this subject.

One possible candidate for reverting to shamanism is the Lithuanians; in the 1300s they were a fairly powerful pagan kingdom, and were the largest country in Europe for a while. They only converted in 1385 IIRC, when the Grand Duke became King of Poland. If you prevent this union, you could, maybe, get a pagan kingdom in Europe into the late middle ages.

 

[AmIndHistoryAuthor]

Does anyone know of any instances in history were a modern monarch of a major European power was presented with the opportunity to embrace shamanistic beliefs and practices? I wonder what the effects would be of a major European empire abandoning christianity for a shamanic or christian-shamanic hybrid belief system. Could any king or emperor have enforced his conversion upon his subjects and his empire? I imagine such a neo-mystical empire being quite "infected" with the widespread consumption of pyschoactive plants, fungi, and other substances not to mention a largely overhauled cultural framework. Could such an empire last long against militaristic neighbors and competitors and internal resistance to its own shamanic reformation? Alternatively, might an "infected" empire seek to aggressively expand its mysticism just as it had previously sought to expand christianity?

The first question is of course wether or not any monarch was offered and even remotely considered listening to the teachings of mystical shamans from some conquered part of his empire. Any candidates? I'm thinking perhaps a Spanish King or perhaps a Czar, but all of the European powers controlled areas where indigenous people still practiced varying degrees of shamanism.

I realize this might be completely ASB, but i'd appreciate if some at least entertained the idea. thanks.

A syncretic mixed belief is not so hard. When the Prince Regent leaves Portugal for Brazil because of the threat of Napoleon, have him fall ill and be cured by one of healers in the Afro Brazilian faiths.

But "shamanic" traditions are more difficult, largely because they generally aren't evangelistic. These traditions make little sense practiced out of their traditional homelands.

I can't see either set of faiths demanding the monarch make his subejcts convert, though many elites probably would just to gain favor. And faiths like Santo Daime or Candomble certainly don't need a monarch to gain adherents in the general population.

The interesting question would be if this affects slavery in Brazil.

 

[Eldritch Po l i t b u ro]

thanks for all of the feedback so far

Dante: Scandinavia has some good candidates. Regarding the catholic church, does anyone know if there were any protestant sects during or after the reformation that flirted with shamanism or shamanistic rituals? my first inclination is again towards scandinavia.

Philip: The Mari are fascinating. Does anyone know if any of the Czars ever hinted at an interest in their beliefs or those of other non-christian peoples conquered by the russians? And regarding palace politics following a monarch's conversion, surely a clever enough ruler could manage to maintain his control, prevent his accusation as a heretic, and even issue edicts demanding the conversion of his subjects if he played his cards right depending on the situation. For the purposes of discussion, lets just imagine a monarch is sharp enough to carry out his own shamanistic coup without getting himself killed in the process. Would he and his country be villified by Rome? yes, of course, but that matters less and less over time, so a later POD could make that less of an issue.

imperialaquila: that's a really interesting idea about lithuania. Perhaps a pagan lithuania that lasts all the way until the reformation could itself have some kind of impact on the reformation, maybe even "infecting" it. Or maybe even if their conversion was delayed by a couple decades, their could still be enough residual cultural memory that a pagan revival can somehow occur during the tumultuous religious wars ahead and the three way struggles between protestant sweden, catholic poland, and orthodox russia over the baltics.

amindhistoryauthor: that's also a really interesting idea. Brazil offers a lot of opportunities for many different kinds of cultural, religious, and political fusions. I might look further into that one. I really like the idea of the POD taking place in the 19th century as opposed to earlier since it brings the possibility of meshing non-christian, or at least radically transformed christian beliefs with the technology and and power of a modern (former) christian empire.


if anyone else has any more ideas, please keep them coming.

 

[Tobit]

How about after the French Revolution the Cult of Reason does much better and continues to be the national faith. The ATL would be like this:

There is no Thermidorian Reaction. Robespierre was less willing to guillotine though still radical in policy, also for what ever reason there is wider support for the Cult of Reason and France is more Jacobin overall. There are also more bloody victories for the French army, the battle of Valmy is not just strategic turn, but turns into a bloody route of the First Coalition. Robespierre is more cautious towards foreign affairs and signs an early peace in return for withdrawing from Flanders and the Rhine valley (Though wallonia is gained).

Religon wise there is the Constitutional Civic Church, and the Cult of Reason. After the Vendee rebellion the Civic Church loses favor with Robespierre, and the Cult of Reason quickly become highly popular among the peasantry. Molded on the wackiest of Mason practices, and the revival of ancient pagan beliefs it is a catch all cult for what ever folk beliefs there are. Many local saints are renamed and join the pantheon of Neo-Philosophy.

Robespierre makes total peace with Toussant L'Ouverture. Robespierre personally visits Haiti and signs an accord of Brotherly Republican Virtue. While there he is heralded as a God by many, palms are lain down for him and there are 20 days of celebration. The Haitian and French Republics are now joined permanently, and while slavery is ended economic interests are preserved. On the return Voodoo priests immigrate to France and are honored by the people there.

War starts up again and once again because of the stellar leadership by the Marshals of France and strategic insight from Robespierre, the French military is successful. The Hatian republic is successfully defended, and slave rebellions break out in Jamaica and Cuba. In Europe, Italy is entirely liberated and is given to Marshal Napoleon after a plebescite. The Italian Republic follows similar anti-clerical practices.

I would imagine that as time goes on, the Cult of Reason would become quite shamanistic. There was in OTL a strong tradition of belief in Seances, fascination with Hinduism, and in general mystics could abound if there is no Catholic Church to keep a lid on things.

 

[Dante]

I really like that, i'd like to see a whole TL devoted to it.

 

[imperialaquila]

imperialaquila: that's a really interesting idea about lithuania. Perhaps a pagan lithuania that lasts all the way until the reformation could itself have some kind of impact on the reformation, maybe even "infecting" it. Or maybe even if their conversion was delayed by a couple decades, their could still be enough residual cultural memory that a pagan revival can somehow occur during the tumultuous religious wars ahead and the three way struggles between protestant sweden, catholic poland, and orthodox russia over the baltics.

Thanks. But a pagan Lithuania will be hard-pressed to survive for more than a few decades after they converted OTL. It's possible for them to last until the Reformation, but I don't see them lasting much longer after that. The will be squeezed from all directions; Germans (like Prussia) from the west, Poland from the south, Sweden or Denmark from the north, and Russia from east. They would envy Poland's position. All of the countries I mentioned would especially hate a pagan country; Poland is devoutly Catholic, Russia is devoutly Orthodox, and after the Reformation Sweden and Prussia will be devoutly Lutheran. Granted, there will be serious butterflies, but Lithuania's location is not going to change. To get a Lithuania surviving even to the Reformation, they will need to be constantly on their toes. It's not impossible, but it's unlikely.

Also, I don't think a pagan religion would "infect" the Reformation. Most shamanistic religions are not evangelical, and mostly do not make sense outside of the culture that spawned them. Did you see the Vikings try to convert Britain to their gods?

 

[Philip]

Also, I don't think a pagan religion would "infect" the Reformation. Most shamanistic religions are not evangelical, and mostly do not make sense outside of the culture that spawned them. Did you see the Vikings try to convert Britain to their gods?

Agree fully.

 

[abas]

Yes- Riding the Eternal Blue Sky is a very good TL, especially for this subject.

One possible candidate for reverting to shamanism is the Lithuanians; in the 1300s they were a fairly powerful pagan kingdom, and were the largest country in Europe for a while. They only converted in 1385 IIRC, when the Grand Duke became King of Poland. If you prevent this union, you could, maybe, get a pagan kingdom in Europe into the late middle ages.

But Lithuanian beliefs wasn't shamanistic, unless you definition of shamanism is vague.

 

[Eldritch Po l i t b u ro]

yeah, fair points about lithuania


tobit: that's an excellent idea! A lasting Cult of Reason would be very interesting. I think that might be the one. thanks a ton