As he was IRL (but still managed to get his wife Evita’d into the Governor’s mansion)
He still could iTTL, at least the Governor recognized by the Confederacy. What would be very funny is if the Confederacy didn't recognize the loss of Texas and kept empty seats for them in Richmond. (or had people in them who weren't replaced, think the members of the RoC government after it fled to Taiwan.)

While the US *wants* Texas to Revolt, do they care whether or not the RoT-Confederate fighting keeps going after the US-Confederate Fighting is done?
 
He still could iTTL, at least the Governor recognized by the Confederacy. What would be very funny is if the Confederacy didn't recognize the loss of Texas and kept empty seats for them in Richmond. (or had people in them who weren't replaced, think the members of the RoC government after it fled to Taiwan.)

While the US *wants* Texas to Revolt, do they care whether or not the RoT-Confederate fighting keeps going after the US-Confederate Fighting is done?
I would have to imagine that different figures in the US government have different views on that last piece, but ambivalence mixed with opportunism I’m sure is the dominant view
 
They would be dismissed out of hand, in full, and Vardaman's intermediaries further made clear that any "seditionist" would be shot, and his family if captured hanged, in retaliation for their revolt.
Great, the Dixie were in Germany spring 1945 mode now.
I started to wonder how armistice went down with Richmond getting increasingly delusional.
Is this going to end with a bloody battle of Richmond, with soldiers raise the union flag over capitol building by the end of the battle?
 
Great, the Dixie were in Germany spring 1945 mode now.
I started to wonder how armistice went down with Richmond getting increasingly delusional.
Is this going to end with a bloody battle of Richmond, with soldiers raise the union flag over capitol building by the end of the battle?
🤐🤐🤐
 
Speaking of flags - I wonder what the flag of the Texan Republicans would be. The knee jerk response would be that they'd keep the Lone Star Flag - it, after all, has a lot of romantic attachment. But I'm not sure that is feasible here - there is going to be a very real need to have a flag and symbol that helps differentiate themselves from Fergusson's loyalists (and I highly doubt that THEY will abandon the Lone Star Flag, since it brings them legitimacy). So the Texas Republicans are going to be forced by neccesity to adopt a different flag and symbol for themselves that is immediately recognizable by eye.
The Gonzales Battle Flag to differentiate themselves. It's long been a symbol of Texan independence
 
I would have to imagine that different figures in the US government have different views on that last piece, but ambivalence mixed with opportunism I’m sure is the dominant view
The main reason that I *think* they would want the RoT-Confederate fighting to stop is that I think the US would rather have the entire CSA Military disarmed...
 
but the Yankee breakthroughs of the spring and summer in the East and Midlands had not yet occurred
jack-nicholson-nods.gif
 
The Gonzales Battle Flag to differentiate themselves. It's long been a symbol of Texan independence
Maybe purely on the battlefield, but the Lone Star likely comes back after independence
The main reason that I *think* they would want the RoT-Confederate fighting to stop is that I think the US would rather have the entire CSA Military disarmed...
There comes a point where that’s perhaps no enforceable. The end of WW1 after all saw a ton of random violence between armies even after the armistice, particularly in Hungary
Spent some time today mapping out the final campaigns…
 
Speaking of flags - I wonder what the flag of the Texan Republicans would be. The knee jerk response would be that they'd keep the Lone Star Flag - it, after all, has a lot of romantic attachment. But I'm not sure that is feasible here - there is going to be a very real need to have a flag and symbol that helps differentiate themselves from Fergusson's loyalists (and I highly doubt that THEY will abandon the Lone Star Flag, since it brings them legitimacy). So the Texas Republicans are going to be forced by neccesity to adopt a different flag and symbol for themselves that is immediately recognizable by eye.

At the same time there’s something deeply hilarious about competing sides using the same flag because they believe it gives them true legitimacy, lol

There is, no doubt :)

But perhaps the Republicans can readopt either the Burnett Flag (which was the first flag of the Republic) or, my personal favorite because it's so crazy, the James Long Flag!

Long_Expedition
1691187666762.png

Apparently the Burnet flag wasn't particularly well-known at the time. The Lone Star and Stripes probably looks too much like the US flag to make RoT supporters particularly comfortable, but it would technically be an option.

1691188422220.png

The Dodson flag was largely rejected as being too similar to the French Republican tricolor, with all the revolutionary connotations associated with that.
A blue-white-red horizontal tricolor could be an option, perhaps with the gold star off the Burnet flag.

1691188735738.png

A four-color flag like this 1936 ... thing could also be entertained.
 
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The People's Prime Minister: Thomas Crerar's Remarkable Canadian Life
"...not caught looking ahead. Crerar spent much of the winter of 1915-16 traveling the wartime United States, including staying several days in Omaha with his idol, William Jennings Bryan, as he developed his treatise.

Published in March of 1916, On Canada and the United States was a series of essays published in pamphlet form, and later a book, that simply oozed early career Crerar. It was earnest, plain-spoken, and tended to draw broad conclusions. In the United Farmers, Crerar saw a parallel to what was happening in Canada in 1916 to what had been going on in the American Plains in 1896, and his "twenty-year theory" of Canadian politics trailing developments south of the 49th parallel by about twenty years was somewhat born from that experience. [1] Bryan's Populists, who had by the 1910s largely been absorbed into but in many ways also taken over the Democratic Party that had once been ultraconservative, had themselves been passionately reformist, largely agrarian partisans who sought to expand new rights to the people from a political establishment they considered distant both culturally and ideologically and controlled by an economic and social oligarchy, all descriptions that fit Ottawa's relationship to the Western Provinces to a T.

It was the retired Bryan working on a history of agrarian populism in the United States, however, who made the observation to Crerar in their teacher-pupil dynamic that what he really needed to focus his manifesto on was not what made populism in Canada and the USA similar, but rather what made it different, and Bryan had an idea on what the issue was that Crerar was not surprised by, even if the eventual conclusion was perhaps the kernel of his political activism for the rest of his life. Bryan noted that while superficially similar linguistically and culturally to one another, there was a reason why Canada was never interested in being part of the United States, and that was its culture of loyalty and hierarchy. It had been largely founded by Loyalists to the Crown after the American Revolution and its role as being a loyal part of the British Empire in North America was perhaps its defining trait from then on, distilled further in its hostility to (American-bred) Fenianism and, most critically, the strength of its Orange Order, an organization that had no equivalent in the United States despite the quiet background strength of the American WASP establishment. [2]

Crerar had never quite thought of it that way and while the root of this idea was present in On Canada and the United States, it was something he needed to consider more broadly and so, to the shock of many of his fellow United Farmers of Manitoba organizers, in late April of 1916 he requested to join the Lodge Number Sixty-One, in Winnipeg, and become a formal Orangeman. While some conservative-leaning historians to this day argue about whether Crerar was a spy aiming for subterfuge or was a secret Protestant-chauvinist who abandoned such views for opportunism, most scholarship on the man, even from the Right, largely are at the conclusion that Crerar was genuine in his declaration that he could not understand Canadian politics until he better understood Orangeism and what appeal it had to the Canadian people. He was not there to handicap his local Orange Lodge from within but rather learn from it and research it, and his findings offered him a level of nuance that he had not previously enjoyed that transformed his political career as much as his time with Bryan.

The realization he arrived at was that Orangeism was not merely about defending the Anglican-Presbyterian establishment of Canada and its prerogatives, or blind loyalty to the British Empire (Crerar disagreed strongly with the joke that Canadians were "more British than Britain"), even though these were nonetheless important throughlines of its raison d'etre. The Order also served an enormously important part of the social fabric of Canada, particularly in Ontario and Nova Scotia, which not coincidentally were the two provinces where the Tories tended to dominate. Crerar described the general cultural mien of Protestant Canada as "the triangle," of three basic points of social connection that reinforced a common culture but also a conservative hegemony. The overlap of Protestant churchgoers, Tory partisans and Orangemen was not by accident - participation in the one often led to participation in the others. As such, riding associations for Conservative Party elections were as much a social event and infrastructure as were attending church services on Sunday or Lodge picnics, marches or other events. Political activism, fraternal communalism, and religious worship thus came together as mutually reinforcing superstructures that were extremely hard to avoid. Many Protestant Canadians were not Tories because they hated Catholics, they were Tories because they attended the Anglican Church in Canada and everyone else in their town or neighborhood did the same, and at both church and at Lodge functions they met the same people they did otherwise who reinforced Tory ideas.

This insularity was further reinforced by the Order acting as an immediate resource for new immigrants to Canada. As discussed in the last chapter, 1910s Canada was in the midst of a huge immigration wave from Europe that saw particular concentration from poor Scotsmen, Ulstermen, and Englishmen from the less cosmopolitan Midlands or West Country. Jobs in Canada were plenty, especially in Ontario and booming Winnipeg (which by this point was arguably still the fastest-growing city on Earth, even as the Nicaragua Canal threatened its key position on the trans-continental route for British commerce), but moving to a new continent was a harrowing experience no matter where in the Americas it was done, and for these thousands of young, often male, Protestants from the British Isles the Order provided a sense of stability, help in getting on their feet, and assistance in then assimilating into a broader and greater "British Canada" that they then became just as defensive of as those who had been on North American shores for generations. Despite the decline in Order membership beginning in the late 1940s, as late as a few years before Crerar's death in 1975 one in five Protestant Canadian men met his wife through some kind of Lodge event, and sixty years prior it was more than two in five.

What Crerar came to realize over the course of 1916, then, was that the Order - and the affiliated but separate women's organizations that were beginning to grow rapidly in membership by that point - served as much a social and economic function as a religious and political one, and that was something that Laurier's Liberals and, now, the United Farmers were struggling to grasp, seeing it purely as a tool of the Conservative Party to maintain the discipline of their core voters. This did not mean that Crerar meant to fully buy in to what the Order believed or its rigid, hierarchical and supremacist politics, but rather that he began to see how it fit into the fabric of Protestant Canadian society and how many of its members had attachments to it beyond - or in some cases, despite of - its explicit agenda. This was the needle which progressive Canadian politics would need to thread, and so Crerar's next project, with On Canada and the United States published and increasingly well-received, was to plot out precisely how to do so..."

- The People's Prime Minister: Thomas Crerar's Remarkable Canadian Life

[1] Keep this figure in mind, though bear in mind this is Crerar theorizing this, not me, the TL's author
[2] I'm speaking a bit through Bryan here. IMO this is one of the biggest differences between Canadians and Americans - the former is way more amenable, culturally and politically, to following the rules and being "loyal", than the more "get off my lawn" culture of the USA, and one of the reasons I'm pursuing this thread ITTL is that it's interesting to turn that cultural instinct on its head into a more politically authoritarian worldview north of the border while the USA's overarching attitude gets threaded into progressivism rather than conservatism, a la OTL. That's me justifying my flipping of the two, at least.
 
Man fuck this guy. You join the Order you are dead to me. I'm sure the Catholics and other non-Protestants that the Order spends its time beating on (in many cases literally) care about Crerar's high-minded altruism when Orange thugs are burning their houses down.
 
A few thoughts.
1) If the US Army is getting Warm Bread with Beef, Chicken and Vegetables in Knoxville, then their logistics may actually be better than it was in OTL WWI.
2) It also means that the supply lines back through Tennessee and Kentucky across the Ohio are relatively well defended. Which probably means *thousands* of relatively well trained Negro defenders. Still looking to see how that Genie gets put into *some* bottle. (Trying to figure out if the author has given clues on which party gets overwhelming support from Negros, which ever party it *isn't* is probably the one that let the Confederacy back into Kentucky)
3) The Confederate Economy is coming apart. I think the Union economy, although can handle another year or two of war easily.
4) I presume a breakthrough in the Midlands is the fall of Atlanta, the question is whether the breakthrough in the east gets the US to the gates of Richmond...
 
Man fuck this guy. You join the Order you are dead to me. I'm sure the Catholics and other non-Protestants that the Order spends its time beating on (in many cases literally) care about Crerar's high-minded altruism when Orange thugs are burning their houses down.
Should give you a sense of how rough Canada is when even progressives feel the need to at least have a Lodge membership!
A few thoughts.
1) If the US Army is getting Warm Bread with Beef, Chicken and Vegetables in Knoxville, then their logistics may actually be better than it was in OTL WWI.
2) It also means that the supply lines back through Tennessee and Kentucky across the Ohio are relatively well defended. Which probably means *thousands* of relatively well trained Negro defenders. Still looking to see how that Genie gets put into *some* bottle. (Trying to figure out if the author has given clues on which party gets overwhelming support from Negros, which ever party it *isn't* is probably the one that let the Confederacy back into Kentucky)
3) The Confederate Economy is coming apart. I think the Union economy, although can handle another year or two of war easily.
4) I presume a breakthrough in the Midlands is the fall of Atlanta, the question is whether the breakthrough in the east gets the US to the gates of Richmond...
1) Yes, US logistics are incomparably better, helped in large part by proximity and several years to get the industrial flying death machine up and running
2) definifely
3) Absolutely
4) We’ll see soon!
 
What Crerar came to realize over the course of 1916, then, was that the Order - and the affiliated but separate women's organizations that were beginning to grow rapidly in membership by that point - served as much a social and economic function as a religious and political one, and that was something that Laurier's Liberals and, now, the United Farmers were struggling to grasp, seeing it purely as a tool of the Conservative Party to maintain the discipline of their core voters. This did not mean that Crerar meant to fully buy in to what the Order believed or its rigid, hierarchical and supremacist politics, but rather that he began to see how it fit into the fabric of Protestant Canadian society and how many of its members had attachments to it beyond - or in some cases, despite of - its explicit agenda. This was the needle which progressive Canadian politics would need to thread, and so Crerar's next project, with On Canada and the United States published and increasingly well-received, was to plot out precisely how to do so..."
Imagine how much conservative Canada is when reactionary Orange Order is basically Centrism.
Also seems that Crerar wouldn'nt be that Progressive as the CCF or NDP.
 
Imagine how much conservative Canada is when reactionary Orange Order is basically Centrism.
Also seems that Crerar wouldn'nt be that Progressive as the CCF or NDP.
Ayup.

I’d say the CCF, as in OTL, is a leftwards evolution of Crerar’s politics. He’s certainly well left of TTL’s Liberals but by the time his era ends, so to speak, there’ll still be appetite for more
 
You know, I've noticed that in all three updates that bear his name, what Thomas Crerar's party affiliation is goes unmentioned. And considering his affiliations IOTL and what the wikibox thread has to say about modern Canadian politics, it really makes me wonder how the Liberals will do in the next election.
 
You know, I've noticed that in all three updates that bear his name, what Thomas Crerar's party affiliation is goes unmentioned. And considering his affiliations IOTL and what the wikibox thread has to say about modern Canadian politics, it really makes me wonder how the Liberals will do in the next election.
This is partly by design but also, in part, because the United Farmers isn’t really a party yet.

And yeah, think of TTL (Canadian) Liberals sort of as the party that for whatever reason keeps existing, inexplicably, despite their weirdly amorphous ideology
 
And yeah, think of TTL (Canadian) Liberals sort of as the party that for whatever reason keeps existing, inexplicably, despite their weirdly amorphous ideology
I mean that’s just OTL lmao. But hey without the deal with the devil I am curious to see how well the Grits get on one step sideways.
 
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