Knowing Drew, we will instead be getting some sort of analogue, and the resulting fallout will ruin American music for years if not decades to come.
Rumsfeldia: Fear and Loathing in the Decade of Tears
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Knowing Drew, we will instead be getting some sort of analogue, and the resulting fallout will ruin American music for years if not decades to come.
I have read Rumsfeldia and I like it as much as I liked Fear, Loathing and Gumbo on the Campaign Trail '72. Great work!
A minor nitpick:
I'm rather skeptical that Holkeri could become the Finnish president at the time, even if there has been changes from IOTL. He is from the foreign politically wrong party and even if the Soviets are okay with him, it's likely that Finns wouldn't still choose him due to the Finlandized nature of politics in the country. Even if he wins most of votes in the elections, I have feeling that electors from other parties would unite and choose whoever came the second.
Even ITTL I could see Mauno Koivisto winning. He had been basically running his presidential campaign for 15 years already and was one of the few politicians in Finland at the time who actually were able to use media as they wanted. Then there's Johannes Virolainen (Centre) who was also a candidate IOTL. He becoming a president would be rather interesting, as he was one of the suspects in the so-called Noppa affair which was a rather messy bribe scandal in 80's involving the Centre party and the construction company Noppa. (The Noppa affair itself had already happened in early 70's so it's likely it would come up at some point.) Virolainen was later declared not quilty but the affair still caused him serious problems and didn't get to the parliament in 1983. Ahti Karjalainen (Centre) was for long time suspected to be Kekkonen's successor but his relationship with Kekkonen became worse in 70's. If he could be better friends with Kekkonen and also hid his alcoholism (which was getting worse and worse all the time) I could see him becoming the president. From the Finnish POV he would be the worst one of these guys as he literally would do almost anything the Soviets ask.
Great work!A minor nitpick:
I'm rather skeptical that Holkeri could become the Finnish president at the time, even if there has been changes from IOTL. He is from the foreign politically wrong party and even if the Soviets are okay with him, it's likely that Finns wouldn't still choose him due to the Finlandized nature of politics in the country. Even if he wins most of votes in the elections, I have feeling that electors from other parties would unite and choose whoever came the second.
Even ITTL I could see Mauno Koivisto winning. He had been basically running his presidential campaign for 15 years already and was one of the few politicians in Finland at the time who actually were able to use media as they wanted. Then there's Johannes Virolainen (Centre) who was also a candidate IOTL. He becoming a president would be rather interesting, as he was one of the suspects in the so-called Noppa affair which was a rather messy bribe scandal in 80's involving the Centre party and the construction company Noppa. (The Noppa affair itself had already happened in early 70's so it's likely it would come up at some point.) Virolainen was later declared not quilty but the affair still caused him serious problems and didn't get to the parliament in 1983. Ahti Karjalainen (Centre) was for long time suspected to be Kekkonen's successor but his relationship with Kekkonen became worse in 70's. If he could be better friends with Kekkonen and also hid his alcoholism (which was getting worse and worse all the time) I could see him becoming the president. From the Finnish POV he would be the worst one of these guys as he literally would do almost anything the Soviets ask.
Orville_third
Banned
I highly recommend "Fall From Glory: The Men Who Sank the U.S. Navy" by Gregory Vistica. It's a nice inside look at Lehman's time running the USN and the aftermath from it. It does have some interesting tidbits. For example, early on, they suggested basing Harriers on the Iowas (after removing a gun turret). More frightening, it described live-fire exercises adjacent to Soviet waters...
Agreed, & the sale of Bulwark really doesn't make a lot of sense- besides the poor relations TTL, wasn't the ship pretty much worn out, to the point that when the Falklands War hit IOTL, the RN had to moot their idea of pressing her back in service as a helicopter carrier because she was too clapped-out to make it there?
Not to mention, that even with the massive build-up, it's kind of hard to see why the USN would really want it when even without raiding the museums, they can come up with a half-dozen Essex-class ships, which would be a lot more useful for the sorts of things one could do with Bulwark, as neither could operate modern combat aircraft, but would have more aircraft options with the Essexs, particularly the steam-cat ones.
You continue to delight and astound, Drew.
I beat my head against the wall at the notion of Deukmejian for Attorney-General, but perhaps there's a bright side...do we get Governor Tom Bradley soon instead?
I beat my head against the wall at the notion of Deukmejian for Attorney-General, but perhaps there's a bright side...do we get Governor Tom Bradley soon instead?
John Farson
Banned
This sure is bitter cosmic irony, as OTL Liddy played William "Captain Real Estate" Maynard in Miami Vice, where his character was a villainous, fanatically anti-communist drug smuggler. Though it often gets lost under the 80s glitter and soundtrack, Miami Vice was actually quite critical of certain aspects of 1980s America, like the War on Drugs and U.S. involvement in Latin America and how they were a corrosive influence on American society and law enforcement. The show also dealt with the AIDS epidemic in an episode or two. I shudder to think what kind of jingoistic crap this version of Vice is, with Captain Real Estate as the star.
As the list of people running afoul of the Rumsfeld Administration grows longer and longer, I wonder what other people will find themselves as dissidents/political prisoners? I think there will soon be a confrontation between Hef and the government, seeing as he's the "last man standing" with Larry Flynt dead and Guccione in prison. Seeing as Playboy has been around for 29 years as of 1982, he could very credibly state that no president from Ike to Wallace ever saw him or his magazine as a "national security risk", so what precisely has now changed? The answer, of course, lies with the current occupants at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Hugh Hefner, political dissident. Now that's something to see!
Another one I could see is Stephen King, particularly if he's written The Stand or something similar TTL. Even if he hasn't, I could see him being "inspired" by the events of the late 70s (the Lop Nur bombing) and first half of the 1980s to write something that would no doubt stick in Rummy's craw. Provided that it gets published, of course.
Has James Gavin commented on these events anyhow? I know there is a tradition for former presidents not to really publicly comment on their successors' activities, but he might be tempted to say something now. Also, as he's a former president himself and a war hero of World War II, he couldn't just be dismissed as some malcontent or pinko troublemaker, never mind arresting him over "national security" or some other trumped up charge.
That last update definitely has me thinking of some other potential hopes for the future in bleak times. Perhaps the Soviet collapse is replaced with a sort-of American collapse- not of democracy, but of the military-industrial complex.
A retained SU, moderating itself internationally (and hopefully internally as time goes by) wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Though I hope it's not achieved at the cost of still-occupied Baltic States, this is just my personal hope and nothing to do with plausibility.
Another possible hopeful sign is in computers. We see that Gates gets out, and that the system is in good enough shape at some point in the future where his name will be cleared. So for now the OTL "good-willed capitalists" of the computer world are wiped out and creaky old corporations are plodding along with the tech. But innovation's probably out-stripping their business model on a regular (if theoretical) basis. How long can this edifice stand? If it falls, we may find that the good-willed capitalists of OTL are all embittered radicals who make the Pirate Party look like SOPA fence-sitters. And they're the ones who'll re-order the internet. How's that for turning TTL utopian?
A retained SU, moderating itself internationally (and hopefully internally as time goes by) wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Though I hope it's not achieved at the cost of still-occupied Baltic States, this is just my personal hope and nothing to do with plausibility.
Another possible hopeful sign is in computers. We see that Gates gets out, and that the system is in good enough shape at some point in the future where his name will be cleared. So for now the OTL "good-willed capitalists" of the computer world are wiped out and creaky old corporations are plodding along with the tech. But innovation's probably out-stripping their business model on a regular (if theoretical) basis. How long can this edifice stand? If it falls, we may find that the good-willed capitalists of OTL are all embittered radicals who make the Pirate Party look like SOPA fence-sitters. And they're the ones who'll re-order the internet. How's that for turning TTL utopian?
The part on Gates getting cleared also implies that TRW someday will get investigated and fall. And I imagine fall HARD. I think the above poster is right in that the military-industrial complex (and possibly the Executive Branch) are on that path "pride goeth before the fall".
And the fact that this TL hints constantly that "this too shall pass", that it's not an endless dystopia, is what is so compelling and so chilling.
And the fact that this TL hints constantly that "this too shall pass", that it's not an endless dystopia, is what is so compelling and so chilling.
That last update definitely has me thinking of some other potential hopes for the future in bleak times. Perhaps the Soviet collapse is replaced with a sort-of American collapse- not of democracy, but of the military-industrial complex.
A retained SU, moderating itself internationally (and hopefully internally as time goes by) wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Though I hope it's not achieved at the cost of still-occupied Baltic States, this is just my personal hope and nothing to do with plausibility.
Another possible hopeful sign is in computers. We see that Gates gets out, and that the system is in good enough shape at some point in the future where his name will be cleared. So for now the OTL "good-willed capitalists" of the computer world are wiped out and creaky old corporations are plodding along with the tech. But innovation's probably out-stripping their business model on a regular (if theoretical) basis. How long can this edifice stand? If it falls, we may find that the good-willed capitalists of OTL are all embittered radicals who make the Pirate Party look like SOPA fence-sitters. And they're the ones who'll re-order the internet. How's that for turning TTL utopian?
While I do agree that there is hope for the future, I have a strong suspicion that American democracy will not survive the transition in its current form, if it is intact at all. When the US gets out of the mess it is in now, then it will be either a genuinely progressive, if very battered country, struggling to recover from over a decade of average to appalling leadership, or a military dictatorship. I honestly think the latter more is likely; the damage to the US political system is probably already irreversible and Rumsfeld still has seven years to fuck stuff up, assuming he doesn't try some screw-ball trick to get a third term.
teg
My personal feeling is that Rumsfeld manages a second term and, for a brief period, appears to have brought political stability to the nation. However, some of his dirty tricks come out, and we have a Worse Watergate on our hands. In the resulting fallout,the Republican Party shatters. The Democrats, if they come out of ALT-1984 alright, manage to gain the Presidency. If the Dems are also fractured badly, then 1988 becomes a free for all between the rump Dems and GOP, Libertarians, WTP and Christian Values. This likely leads to holy he'll in Congress as no one gets a majority of the EC.
Just from the flashes we e got of the future, it would seem as if Democracy certainly survives, but the Rumsfeld years are deeply contentious and not very popular.
On a side note; Drew once said that the 76 election came down to a literal coin toss between Reagan and Wallace. I wonder how he planned to develop things if his coin came up differently, and we had Reagan in 76?
Possibly not much worse than Putin and co's Russia by 2012
, and with less need to engage in nationalist dick-swinging in the near abroad.Bruce
I remember a King interview, where he says, that in 1968 he was still conservative Republican who voted for Nixon. Okay, his "conversion" to liberalism happend before 1972, but maybe the turmoilthe US goes through lead him in a completly different direction. Maybe he becomes a fantasy-writer with a clear libertatrian streak.
Probably not. King' s eldest son, Joe Hill, was born in 1972 and was named for the Wobbly labor leader (on a side note, Joe Hill is still around in the ALT! I really enjoy his novels.) I figure that King' s becoming more liberal likely had to do with the chaos on Nixon's first term, Vietnam, and then Watergate. Those trends would likely continue with these 70s and 80s being more chaotic.
Drew, I believe, has stated that King is less popular in the ATL, but I would love to see an ALT-Stand come out of this Chinese superflu. It would be funny if the Christian themes of the TOP novel are stressed even more, and he developed a Christian Values following for a short time
Heavy
Banned
Well, Drew's implied he's building towards the collapse of the two-party system in America...
Perhaps we will see an excerpt from Gingrich's book complaining bitterly about the unconstitutional and communistic nature of European-style coalition governments.
Thande
Donor
Speaking of Stephen King, I can't remember if I mentioned this before, but in one of his Dark Tower books (the fifth IIRC) a character mentions slipping between several different (but similar and recognisable) timelines in the late 1970s, and mentions that in one of them a newspaper said that Agnew was President. Of course I immediately thought of this TL...
Bah, Where's the fun in that? lol. Drew has shown himself to be one of the best constitutional scholars on this board by showcasing the legal consequences from self -pardoning, to the election of a Speaker of the House of Representatives who was not even a Congressman and to the infamous contingent election '73. IMO seeing Rummy try to get a repeal of the 22nd Amendment passed or using the constitutional loophole in the language in the 22nd Amendment to "serve" a third term in office would be the icing of the cake which represents the major creaks in our governmental structure.
I personally think seeing Rumsfeld & Cheney trying pulling off a Putin-Medvedev swap would be hilarious to watch, and have it some way blow up in their faces. Some external pressures may still hit Rummy in his second term. In terms of a major internal leak coming from within the administration, I think that's a little less likely as they appear to be striving to keep a pretty tight ship in the Rumsfeld White House
The answer is already there. There's precedent ITTL for such a thing.
Not only that but while it was justifiable from a purely practical stand-point, Gavin's election as Speaker of the House was more than a little dubious. Without doubt 1973 widened the boundaries of what was acceptable under that part of the constitution.
teg
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