Roman Machine Ballistae

I was watching a History channel special on Heron of Alexandria (also known as Hero); some might remember the AH I had written on the old forums about steam technology transforming Constantine's empire (having the seat of the Catholic Church move to Constantinople with him).

Now, I just found out that Hero had developed a mini-ballista (or larger crossbow, whichever you prefer) that could fire multiple large bolts and worked on a tread system: pulling the crank could fire many bolts in a rapid succession. What if the Romans had truly picked up on this, and riddled their frontier with what were basically machine gun turrets?
 
Knight Of Armenia said:
I was watching a History channel special on Heron of Alexandria (also known as Hero); some might remember the AH I had written on the old forums about steam technology transforming Constantine's empire (having the seat of the Catholic Church move to Constantinople with him).

Now, I just found out that Hero had developed a mini-ballista (or larger crossbow, whichever you prefer) that could fire multiple large bolts and worked on a tread system: pulling the crank could fire many bolts in a rapid succession. What if the Romans had truly picked up on this, and riddled their frontier with what were basically machine gun turrets?

There isn't enough additional punch to be had in return for the complicated gears that can go wrong. The Museum for Ancient Navigation in Mainz (bit of a highfalutin' name, but basically it's an archeological center dedicated to reconstructing the Rhine Fleet, centered around four surviving wrecks) built such a weapon based on a description by Philo. It works, but the rate of fire is not significantly faster than a regular 'scorpio' and the mechanism is somewhat malfuction-prone. I talked to one of the staff and he said that if the bolt gets stuck in the feed mechanism, the whole catapult jams with the string halfway back, *not* locked, and the whole strain of the system placed on the jammed feeder as soon as the crew slack their pull on the wheel. That's a recipe for fractures. Now, Roman military doctors were good at treating fractures, but still...

BTW, the Roman did, in a sense, riddle their frontier with machine gun turrets. The army of the Later Empire depended far more on ranged weapons, fortifications, and other force multipliers than that of the Principate. Julian himself had a bodyguard of 'ballistarii' (though it is unclear whether these were crossbowmen or artillerymen) and even the smallest guard fortresses were fitted to take catapults. If you can, get your hands on a translation of 'De Rebus Bellicis'. This anonymous treatise addresses a number of military problems of Late Antiquity from an engineer's view. It contains afew very modern concepts (self-propelled armored warships, armored fighting vehicles, incendiary artillery) that would make great PODs but for the fact that they lacked one crucial item - usually the power source - that contemporary technology simply couldn't supply.
 
Knight Of Armenia said:
I was watching a History channel special on Heron of Alexandria (also known as Hero)
Saw the same special. When they went on about how close he came to starting an industrial revolution, I almost cried... :(

How pathetic is that?

BTW, welcome back.

Again. :p
 
"Saw the same special. When they went on about how close he came to starting an industrial revolution, I almost cried..."

It seems there aren't many fans of the History Channel here (judging from that comment and others I've seen). I rather like the HC; most people (esp. Americans) are ignorant of history and this presents it in a rather pop-culture fashion.

Welcome back, Rafi.
 
Matt Quinn said:
It seems there aren't many fans of the History Channel here (judging from that comment and others I've seen).
No, I meant I almost cried because I was so depressed that he didn't. I pine for what might have been. Why else would I be here? :D
 
Glad to be back, all, and thanks; school + family problems dictate most of my life, at the moment. Ahh, college...

Off-topic, but I prefer the History International channel over the History channel; less America-centered, and the pieces that are based on the US are about things the History channel rarely mentions (WWI, Spanish-American War, etc).
 
"I find that about 1/4 of the shows on the history channel have something to do with WWI or WWII. I still enjoy watching"

My Mom calls it "the Hitler Channel" b/c most of it seems to be WWII.

"No, I meant I almost cried because I was so depressed that he didn't. I pine for what might have been. Why else would I be here?"

Oh, sorry. I recall hearing other critics of the History Channel on the board and I thought you were reduced to near-tears by historical inaccuracies.
 
Welcome back Rafi. The HC does is a bit too much America centred and has too much emphasis on WW2. Have you looked over me "A Different Fate for the Templars" in the Writing section? I know you enjoyed reading the parts on the old board. And if you have any suggestions on it or for the future please let me know thanks.
 
"If you've every watched the History Channel, there's only two things that have happened in history. The American Civil War, and Hitler."-Jon Stuart, The Daily Show with Jon Stuart


What if the Roman scientists had been able to work out most of the cinks to this 'automatic balista'. Just imagine what would happen then.
 
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Mifletz

Banned
Dominus cries about how Hero almost started an industrial revolution in Ancient Greece. But there was no real industrial revolution for 2000+ years. Why? Some believe in a "Heavenly Timetable" - the "Preordained Theory of History". The Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, Hebrews, Druids etc may have known less than we know today (btw how did they build those pyramids - could we build even a small one even with power tools?!), but they were more intelligent than we are today. Why didn't massive technological advancement occur in their eras? Or in any other era; only 150 years ago, in which it literally exploded? Some point to the Zohar that predicted that it was preordained that only in 5600=1840 would a world knowledge explosion occur, not gradually as in previous eras.
 
AGES

The Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, Hebrews, Druids, built large stone things because they lived in the stone age, People in the steel age build large steel things [bridges, skyscrapers ect] and wonder about the stone age. Engineers & Architects, build things with the Materials avalible. ;)
 

Mifletz

Banned
There have been many National Geographic & History channel programs showing how the method of construction of the ancients is extremely perplexing to modern engineers: the Pyramids, Roman bridges, Baalbek, Nazca Valley, Lake Titicaca, Stonehenge, Easter Island, zigurats in Babylon & Mexico etc. Even modern lifting gear can barely move the gravity-defying sarsens of Stonehenge!
 
Mifletz said:
Dominus cries about how Hero almost started an industrial revolution in Ancient Greece. But there was no real industrial revolution for 2000+ years. Why? Some believe in a "Heavenly Timetable" - the "Preordained Theory of History". The Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, Hebrews, Druids etc may have known less than we know today (btw how did they build those pyramids - could we build even a small one even with power tools?!), but they were more intelligent than we are today. Why didn't massive technological advancement occur in their eras? Or in any other era; only 150 years ago, in which it literally exploded? Some point to the Zohar that predicted that it was preordained that only in 5600=1840 would a world knowledge explosion occur, not gradually as in previous eras.

I doubt that the Druids, Egyptians or Romans were more intelligent than we are today. The writings that survive show us a literate, educated and able administrative class and upper class, and archeology can show us some spectacular solutions to problems, but the same goes for modernity. We are, if anything, very likely smarter than our ancestors by a tiny fraction due to a selective process that is biased towards braininess (though frankly, I doubt the effect would be measurable). The important distinction is that when we read the writings of our ancestors or look at their works, we see a selection made canonical by centuries and limited by the accident of survival. When we read the writings of our contemporaries, we read what comes our way. That is why we thrill to the Gettysburg Address and wonder why we don't get speakers like that any more. Take solace, ye sufferers from Clinton's "I did not..." and Bushes' "These are Bad People" performances, in the fact that the 19th century had only two or three, either, so we're well within quota for the twenty-first. Much the same goes for philosophers, politicians, and writers. We're still sorting out the twentieth century - expect a very impressive canon in a few decades' time. In the meantime, wait for an archeologist somewhere to come up with fragments from Greece's most forgettable philosopher, complete with the dustjacket that says "Forget Plato! Forget Aristotle! The New Truth is Here! only 6 drachmae 99 obols in papyrusback" :D

As to the pyramids - yes we can, and a team of archeologists recently did. The amazing thing about Egypt's pyramids is not the architecture, it's the scale. Pyramids are fairly easy - you just pile up square stones from a broad base to a pointy top. I stand in much greater awe of Ancient Egypt's hydraulic engineering works. AS to scale, that takes immense effort, but again nothing that couldn't be solved by adding resources. Bear in mind that they had decades and billions of man-hours to deploy.

Neither am I convinced that the explosion of the industrial revolution required divine intervention. There are factors like knowledge transmission (for the first time, large segments of the population are systematically taught to read, write, and reckon), knowledge dissemination (there are printed books for all those new readers, public libraries, and a new comunicativa based on numbers and statistics), labor-efficient production (iron, one of the basic ingredients of Europe's industrialisation, went through a quantum leap of efficiency between 1300 and 1600, another one by 1800, and by 1900 steel was as cheap and plentiful as iron had become by 1800. Before 1300, iron was rare and costly.), food (agricultural productivity in England between 1650 and 1750 increased massively, and the potato and maize brought two new staples to Europe that could support vastly larger populations on a simple, but viable diet) and transportation (by 1750, sea and river transport in Europe had become efficient enough to make carrying ultra-cheap bulk commodities like coal, sand, and clay economically viable, which made large-scale concentrated production of even the most basic stuff interesting. Then came the canals and railway.). None of these had been in place in Hellenistic Greece, Roman Europe, Song China, the Ummayyad Caliphate, or Mughal India. Thus, the industrial revolution was a possibility in 250 BC, 100 AD, 700 AD, 1100 AD or 1500 AD, but it hadbecome an almost necessary development (if not, perhaps, with the rapidity it showed OTL) by 1750 AD.
 
Mifletz said:
There have been many National Geographic & History channel programs showing how the method of construction of the ancients is extremely perplexing to modern engineers: the Pyramids, Roman bridges, Baalbek, Nazca Valley, Lake Titicaca, Stonehenge, Easter Island, zigurats in Babylon & Mexico etc. Even modern lifting gear can barely move the gravity-defying sarsens of Stonehenge!

You know, that might have something to do with the fact that the makers of the programme are much more interested in a statement along the lines of 'History has to be rewritten!" or "A mystery to this day" than in viable, dull, boring answers. Most history documentaries I have seen present interesting new findings (or, more usually, well-known facts) in very sensationalist language.

Take, frex, the Easter Island statues. We now know (from reconstruction experiments, no less) that they could be moved by teams of about 100 people using not just one but two different techniques using traditional materials. Of course we don't know whether it was done by either method - nobody left alive to ask.

The Egyptian Pyramids are the most common example of the 'impossible by modern methods' legend. It would not be a technical problem to build the Great Pyramid today (getting the funding, on the other hand...). Back then it was a much greater challenge, of course - cutting the blocks by hand, transporting them by ship and moving them all the way up the pyramid - but nothing about the project is impossible. All it takes is a few hundred thousand poeople supporting several tens of thousands of builders and the resources of the most advanced nation of its day. And if Egypt managed the Great Pyramid, why shouldn't the Brits be able to pile up Stonehenge? They had time. No deadlines to work against :)

There are a few things we do not yet understand - how, for example, cyclopean walls are made to fit so exactly - but I am sure that if you take an archeologist who knows his stuff and a builder who can think outside the box, and do a few test runs with original materials that should clear up. Remember - the opinion of even the best qualified egyptologist, historian or archeologist on civil engineering matters is that of a nonspecialist. The same goes for that of the best architect, engineer or mason on history. When modern experts say "We couldn't do that today" they often mean "I don't know how".

OK, rant mode over. These 'impossible even today' pseudo-mysticism sales tactics on the networks just bother me no end. sorry
 

Mifletz

Banned
As I recall form the program, 10 top US engineers and 200 Arab workers were unable to assemble even a 20' pyramid using 50kg blocks. How the Egyptians "easily" assembled the 500' pyramids, made of 2 million 2,000 kg blocks is far from clear, with several competing theories. In particular the gaps between the stones being so tight that a knife edge cannot enter "could not be done without power tools today" remarked one engineer. The National Geographic is not prone to "pseudo-mysticism". There was another documentary about perplexities as to how exactly Wren constructed St Paul's Cathedral; and even of only 150 years ago big perplexeties about certain Victorian engineerings. Even of 90 years ago, the genius Canadian canoneer Gerald Bull could not fathom exactly how the Germans made their giant WW1 Paris guns. We obviously don't know everything about our predecessors skills and methods.
 
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Mifletz said:
As I recall form the program, 10 top US engineers and 200 Arab workers were unable to assemble even a 20' pyramid using 50kg blocks. How the Egyptians "easily" assembled the 500' pyramids, made of 2 million 2,000 kg blocks is far from clear, with several competing theories. In particular the gaps between the stones being so tight that a knife edge cannot enter "could not be done without power tools today" remarked one engineer. The National Geographic is not prone to "pseudo-mysticism". There was another documentary about perplexities as to how exactly Wren constructed St Paul's Cathedral; and even of only 150 years ago big perplexeties about certain Victorian engineerings. Even of 90 years ago, the genius Canadian canoneer Gerald Bull could not fathom exactly how the Germans made their giant WW1 Paris guns. We obviously don't know everything about our predecessors skills and methods.

Actually, some years ago I did see a program on the Discovery Channel where a team did actually build a pyramid, and they showed how easy it would have been to move the blocks in question. All you do is grind up some limestone (which the Egyptians had plenty of), mix it with sand and water (also plentiful), and make concrete. You then make your ramps and causeways out of this material. You pour water on the concrete to make it slippery, and the blocks (on wooden sledges, or rolling on tree-trunks) slide easily and quickly along the ramps, even with relatively small work-gangs pulling them. And interestingly, upon investigation, the Giza plateau is literally covered with the remains of these concrete ramps and causeways. They just haven't been noticed up until recently because nobody was looking for them and they aren't very remarkable to look at, so they didn't grab anybody's attention as did the more famous remains in the area.
 

Dunash

Banned
The AVERAGE size of the 2.5 million blocks is 2.5 tons.Yet there are several hundred thousand weighing 10-15 tons, particularly on the 35th course, contradicting engineering common sense. To poise, lift, coordinate, manoeuvre perfectly an endless production line of two-car size chunky stone monoliths of killing weight at hundreds of feet beggars the comprehension. Given the annual 3 month lay off imposed during the flooding of the Nile, 100,000 men (think of the on-site food and accomodation requirements!) in a 10 hour working day, would have to lay 4 blocks a minute for 20 years, without dropping or damaging a single stone, let alone the accuracy required hundreds of feet off the ground, as there is not the minutest error in the angle of incline of any of the sides. There are more than 30 competing & conflicting theories, all with problems. The Ramp Theory, seemingly the most plausible, would have required a ramp 4800' long to drag stones at the limit of 1:10!
 
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