Was there any type of Roman ship up till 395 AD which, in theory, could have managed to make an Atlantic crossing and returned to Europe or North Africa?
Roman Atlantic Crossing
- Thread starter Jan Gronvik
- Start date
wolf_brother
Banned
AFAIK Roman vassals were explicitly not prepared for the rough waters of the Atlantic. You might get one ship there, once, but that would be borderline ASB-levels of luck.
mowque
Banned
Oh, you can build one in Roman times. They just didn't build any, because they didn't need/want to.
Stone Age tech could do it.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_hypothesis
Yeah, I know that this isn't likely to be correct, but it's still an interesting idea.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_hypothesis
Yeah, I know that this isn't likely to be correct, but it's still an interesting idea.
Apparently the Veneti had some large and seaworthy ships, so possibly the Romans could have developed these.
I also thought about that.
And I guess it would matter where the atlantic crossing was made (currents etc).
Brazil, the Caribbean islands or the east coast of North America would make for different scenarios.
I can only reiterate, almost anything can cross the Atlantic. It's been done with skin boats, open pinnaces, and bundles of reeds. Almost all Roman ships not designed for war could have managed the passage, and returned, with no more than the usual losees to be expected.
The problem is that in order to cross the Atlantic twice, you need to either know what you are doing or be ASB-level lucky. The Romans were not bad navigators, but the atlantic tradition at the time was not into high-seas sailing. They did not understand the wind systems and had no reason to expect them, to be stable or regular. I don't think any ship ending up drifting off into the unknown would be materially or intellectually equipped to come back. Of course, you could have it happen in stages - there are islands out there.
The problem is that in order to cross the Atlantic twice, you need to either know what you are doing or be ASB-level lucky. The Romans were not bad navigators, but the atlantic tradition at the time was not into high-seas sailing. They did not understand the wind systems and had no reason to expect them, to be stable or regular. I don't think any ship ending up drifting off into the unknown would be materially or intellectually equipped to come back. Of course, you could have it happen in stages - there are islands out there.
while i do not know how the romans navigate, traveling straight via latitude is relatively simple. its getting the longitude correct that gets complicated.
so if the the weather theoretically remains favorable throughout the entire voyage (a bit asb) one could consistently hit roughly the same area over extended distances
so if the the weather theoretically remains favorable throughout the entire voyage (a bit asb) one could consistently hit roughly the same area over extended distances
mowque
Banned
I mean, couldn't they follow the coast the whole way to Cornwall? I seem to recall some Phoenicians circumnavigating Africa.
Riain
Banned
Yes, the Phonecian and Tartessos also went to Britain. By Roman times this route had been in used for maybe 2000 years and I think there would be plenty of traders who would do an ocean crossing from the north west of Iberia to Brittany or Cornwall to save time and money. The mid point between these is pretty much the open Atlanitc.
Unconsensual
Banned
Pt 1.
Well it is not impossible to do this, after all Hawaii (pacific crossing) was settled with more primitive tech. Now mass colonization would be nigh-high difficult, short of a Roman emperor/aristocrat with fantasies of following the sun to the land of Hades to retrieve a love one. (so short of actual intention and vision)
But suppose a fleet by some fluke ends up lost in the Caribbean. First of all a fleet probably has the numbers to maintain long-term genetic diversity , especially as sailors tend to be predominately male so we can effectively double the number accounting for native wives, more if they settle for more than one women. So it should be sustainable as it gets above the 500 pop. min. needed for long term genetic diversity.
Local power distribution:
Now its just a clash of civilizations, the nearest proto-states were in central America and Peru so no one else has technology nor the organization remotely close enough to counter the Romans. Now obviously a fleet of sailors will not have all the technological abilities of the Romans, a simple matter of mathematics. The Romans will not be militarily conquered, they will at least assimilate with the natives of the islands they land on.
Agriculture:
But we can take a few stabs at it, very likely that there are people who farmed on the fleet, while perhaps not all of the crops from Europe were stored we can effectively assume a good ratio for something like an entire fleet. Let's say no perishables, perhaps some dried fruit seeds but that would be a fluke and unintentional . We can almost be assured of hardy staple foods like grains, millet, barley and hemp. Perhaps some pulses like peas, chickpea and lentil. For this case let's say peas and chickpeas made it across.
The main problem is the climate, which as opposed to the Mediterranean's hot & dry summers are equilateral and dry in the winter instead. While Mediterranean crops will still grow they won't grow to their at most extent, though the Caribbean is in no shortage of rain. Considering the cooler state of the world then we can argue that there will be less hurricanes.
Husbandry:
Now having pigs ,chickens , and goats on ships is a common sight, perhaps horses and oxen but its less likely to occur and to occur in large numbers. For this case let's say that horses made it across but in low numbers and any descendants had a fair chance of genetic disorders limiting their worth.
Well it is not impossible to do this, after all Hawaii (pacific crossing) was settled with more primitive tech. Now mass colonization would be nigh-high difficult, short of a Roman emperor/aristocrat with fantasies of following the sun to the land of Hades to retrieve a love one. (so short of actual intention and vision)
But suppose a fleet by some fluke ends up lost in the Caribbean. First of all a fleet probably has the numbers to maintain long-term genetic diversity , especially as sailors tend to be predominately male so we can effectively double the number accounting for native wives, more if they settle for more than one women. So it should be sustainable as it gets above the 500 pop. min. needed for long term genetic diversity.
Local power distribution:
Now its just a clash of civilizations, the nearest proto-states were in central America and Peru so no one else has technology nor the organization remotely close enough to counter the Romans. Now obviously a fleet of sailors will not have all the technological abilities of the Romans, a simple matter of mathematics. The Romans will not be militarily conquered, they will at least assimilate with the natives of the islands they land on.
Agriculture:
But we can take a few stabs at it, very likely that there are people who farmed on the fleet, while perhaps not all of the crops from Europe were stored we can effectively assume a good ratio for something like an entire fleet. Let's say no perishables, perhaps some dried fruit seeds but that would be a fluke and unintentional . We can almost be assured of hardy staple foods like grains, millet, barley and hemp. Perhaps some pulses like peas, chickpea and lentil. For this case let's say peas and chickpeas made it across.
The main problem is the climate, which as opposed to the Mediterranean's hot & dry summers are equilateral and dry in the winter instead. While Mediterranean crops will still grow they won't grow to their at most extent, though the Caribbean is in no shortage of rain. Considering the cooler state of the world then we can argue that there will be less hurricanes.
Husbandry:
Now having pigs ,chickens , and goats on ships is a common sight, perhaps horses and oxen but its less likely to occur and to occur in large numbers. For this case let's say that horses made it across but in low numbers and any descendants had a fair chance of genetic disorders limiting their worth.
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Unconsensual
Banned
Pt2.
Technology:
Seafaring:
Navigation tech will make it across, after all it is a fleet. Now the ability to construction large ships will be lost, but there should be enough people with knowledge of basic sails/galleys due to necessity of serving on ships and general backgrounds of sailors. Compared to the rafts that Columbus encountered we can safely say that the Romans will be unmatched in the seas. The Romans will take time to make charts of the local area but fortunately the Caribbean islands are practically stepping stones.
Construction
In a fleet of a few hundred there should be some people with knowledge of masonry(anyone who engaged in construction/fortifications in the military), irrigation (farmers), and basic architecture. Now obviously they will not have the knowledge set to build Coliseums but the general concepts of aqueducts, Coliseums, road networks will be understood.
Iron
Rather likely that there will people with smithing knowledge, while we probably won't get a master craftsman we can probably get iron on the low/average quality range. This is an incredible military advantage over the clubs and arrows of the natives. Upon arrival metal will probably have to be cannibalized until some local sources can be found.
Writing:
Rather unlikely, given how sailors tend to be illiterate we can only hope that some of the few higher-class professions know it. But given the lack of immediate general use the most we can expect is a small guild of administrators. Now even if writing doesn't make it across the concept of writing will and eventually they will make some sort of pseudo-language for their accounting/religious/administrative needs.
Other:
Sewing, pottery, woodcraft, iron tools and all the common knowledge of the lower classes should be present, some select middle class knowledge.
Organization:
The Romans would have a huge advantage here: Bureaucracy to organize the state, public works for greater efficiency,religion and ideologies to inspire people and warriors to fight to the death (compared with tribesmen which never do), law systems to resolve conflicts, and Roman military organization which was unmatched for centuries in Europe let alone the Americas.
However expect the class structure to breakdown a bit due to the small numbers of initial Romans, tribes of around few hundred tend to be rather egalitarian. If you count the native wives/children the Romans should number around a thousand.
First Contact:
The native population of North America is around the tens of millions, the carribean is around the thousands so no existential challenge for the Romans. Perhaps the Roman's greatest advantage: Smallpox, The Flu, Measles, Pertussis, Malaria are bound to ravage the Islands upon first contact, making it exceedingly simple for the Romans to attain control. Given the poor watercraft of the natives it is possible that the Main continents of the Americas will remain untouched until latter. However, these diseases will make it to the Americas eventually, destroying any developing proto-states and suppressing the Mayans, Aztecs, and Inac for a century or more.
Given the amount of native assimilation and "virgin" lands available we can assume a growth rate of around 4% annually, so starting from around ~1000 New Romans we will get around ~50,000 New Romans by the first century, enough for a Caribbean archipelago state to be formed with most of the Old World knowledge intact .
The Romans will obtain new world knowledge, after all native tribesmen tend to have near perfect environmental knowledge. We can perhaps add some oddities to the Roman diet from the locals but domesticated crops/animals will have to come from Meso-America and the Andes.
Long-Term
The "new" Romans would probably be some combination of Caribbean-Roman, once the Romans have the initial numbers (50,000 ish) they can achieve the organization of a state. Some aspects of Roman culture will no doubt be lost, but some aspects of native culture will be assimilated.
The new Romans would have the advantage of numbers from an organized state, domesticated animals ,a better set of crops, and all the advantages of specialization that a food surplus creates.
The new Romans would have the advantages of technology, and organization. No native society short of the Mayans and Inca are capable of mobilizing resources to the same extent, no Native society will have weapons that can defeat an Iron age army, no native society can decimate the new Romans with infectious diseases on first contact. Note that the tropical diseases that affected the European colonizers in OTL were brought over by Europeans from tropical Africa, given how the new Romans were given a one time trip it is unlikely that any tropical diseases made it across.
Given how the Romans have the advantages of numbers , technology, and organization expect them to replace/assimilate most of North America suitable for Mediterranean agriculture combined with Incan and Meso-American agriculture. While the geography of The Americas do not facilitate empires expect regional kingdoms ruling comprising of the Incan empire, the coastal areas of South America, the Caribbean, stretching north to southern parts of present day Canada, and the entire east coast. Now you will have native tribes that adapt well like the Navajo in OTL but the majority of natives will be eradicated. A similar example would be the Bantu expansion of wet-climate farmers armed with Iron age weapons, the natives will be pushed to the marginal lands unsuitable for the New Roman agriculture.
The Great Plains, California, and Argentina are perfect replicas of the Mediterranean climate , expect empires to roll out from these areas due to the amazing food production. There will be a Californian empire bound by the Rockies, an empire spanning the great plains given how the there are very few natural obstacles to conquest, and an empire far to the south in Argentina expanding north into the Amazon and west into the Andes.
Argentina and California maybe colonized by the time of the first European explorers, dependent on luck really.
By the 15th century the new world will be predominately new Roman, expect some technological improvements but not as much as Eurasia. Considering how the Incas numbered around 10-40 million before the Spanish contact based on just South American agriculture, the Mayans around 15-35 million before the Spanish contact based on just Meso American agriculture, and the rest of tribal Americas ~40million based on hunter-gather societies for a total of roughly 75-115 million in the Americas. We can assume that given the better crops, the assimilation of Meso and South American agriculture from conquest, the organization of the New Romans that we can easily achieve a New world population density of 15-30 people per square kilometer (based on rough average of all other empires during the Roman times) The area suitable for agriculture is roughly 20,000,000 square km in North America and another 10,000,000 square km in South America totaling 30million square kilometers. Extrapolating population density with areas suitable to agriculture and given around 1000-1500 years for saturation to a New Roman population of 350-600million by the 15th century.
Did you find China Columbus?
No, something else.
Then what did you find?
Rome.
Hmmm... Maybe I should write a TL
Technology:
Seafaring:
Navigation tech will make it across, after all it is a fleet. Now the ability to construction large ships will be lost, but there should be enough people with knowledge of basic sails/galleys due to necessity of serving on ships and general backgrounds of sailors. Compared to the rafts that Columbus encountered we can safely say that the Romans will be unmatched in the seas. The Romans will take time to make charts of the local area but fortunately the Caribbean islands are practically stepping stones.
Construction
In a fleet of a few hundred there should be some people with knowledge of masonry(anyone who engaged in construction/fortifications in the military), irrigation (farmers), and basic architecture. Now obviously they will not have the knowledge set to build Coliseums but the general concepts of aqueducts, Coliseums, road networks will be understood.
Iron
Rather likely that there will people with smithing knowledge, while we probably won't get a master craftsman we can probably get iron on the low/average quality range. This is an incredible military advantage over the clubs and arrows of the natives. Upon arrival metal will probably have to be cannibalized until some local sources can be found.
Writing:
Rather unlikely, given how sailors tend to be illiterate we can only hope that some of the few higher-class professions know it. But given the lack of immediate general use the most we can expect is a small guild of administrators. Now even if writing doesn't make it across the concept of writing will and eventually they will make some sort of pseudo-language for their accounting/religious/administrative needs.
Other:
Sewing, pottery, woodcraft, iron tools and all the common knowledge of the lower classes should be present, some select middle class knowledge.
Organization:
The Romans would have a huge advantage here: Bureaucracy to organize the state, public works for greater efficiency,religion and ideologies to inspire people and warriors to fight to the death (compared with tribesmen which never do), law systems to resolve conflicts, and Roman military organization which was unmatched for centuries in Europe let alone the Americas.
However expect the class structure to breakdown a bit due to the small numbers of initial Romans, tribes of around few hundred tend to be rather egalitarian. If you count the native wives/children the Romans should number around a thousand.
First Contact:
The native population of North America is around the tens of millions, the carribean is around the thousands so no existential challenge for the Romans. Perhaps the Roman's greatest advantage: Smallpox, The Flu, Measles, Pertussis, Malaria are bound to ravage the Islands upon first contact, making it exceedingly simple for the Romans to attain control. Given the poor watercraft of the natives it is possible that the Main continents of the Americas will remain untouched until latter. However, these diseases will make it to the Americas eventually, destroying any developing proto-states and suppressing the Mayans, Aztecs, and Inac for a century or more.
Given the amount of native assimilation and "virgin" lands available we can assume a growth rate of around 4% annually, so starting from around ~1000 New Romans we will get around ~50,000 New Romans by the first century, enough for a Caribbean archipelago state to be formed with most of the Old World knowledge intact .
The Romans will obtain new world knowledge, after all native tribesmen tend to have near perfect environmental knowledge. We can perhaps add some oddities to the Roman diet from the locals but domesticated crops/animals will have to come from Meso-America and the Andes.
Long-Term
The "new" Romans would probably be some combination of Caribbean-Roman, once the Romans have the initial numbers (50,000 ish) they can achieve the organization of a state. Some aspects of Roman culture will no doubt be lost, but some aspects of native culture will be assimilated.
The new Romans would have the advantage of numbers from an organized state, domesticated animals ,a better set of crops, and all the advantages of specialization that a food surplus creates.
The new Romans would have the advantages of technology, and organization. No native society short of the Mayans and Inca are capable of mobilizing resources to the same extent, no Native society will have weapons that can defeat an Iron age army, no native society can decimate the new Romans with infectious diseases on first contact. Note that the tropical diseases that affected the European colonizers in OTL were brought over by Europeans from tropical Africa, given how the new Romans were given a one time trip it is unlikely that any tropical diseases made it across.
Given how the Romans have the advantages of numbers , technology, and organization expect them to replace/assimilate most of North America suitable for Mediterranean agriculture combined with Incan and Meso-American agriculture. While the geography of The Americas do not facilitate empires expect regional kingdoms ruling comprising of the Incan empire, the coastal areas of South America, the Caribbean, stretching north to southern parts of present day Canada, and the entire east coast. Now you will have native tribes that adapt well like the Navajo in OTL but the majority of natives will be eradicated. A similar example would be the Bantu expansion of wet-climate farmers armed with Iron age weapons, the natives will be pushed to the marginal lands unsuitable for the New Roman agriculture.
The Great Plains, California, and Argentina are perfect replicas of the Mediterranean climate , expect empires to roll out from these areas due to the amazing food production. There will be a Californian empire bound by the Rockies, an empire spanning the great plains given how the there are very few natural obstacles to conquest, and an empire far to the south in Argentina expanding north into the Amazon and west into the Andes.
Argentina and California maybe colonized by the time of the first European explorers, dependent on luck really.
By the 15th century the new world will be predominately new Roman, expect some technological improvements but not as much as Eurasia. Considering how the Incas numbered around 10-40 million before the Spanish contact based on just South American agriculture, the Mayans around 15-35 million before the Spanish contact based on just Meso American agriculture, and the rest of tribal Americas ~40million based on hunter-gather societies for a total of roughly 75-115 million in the Americas. We can assume that given the better crops, the assimilation of Meso and South American agriculture from conquest, the organization of the New Romans that we can easily achieve a New world population density of 15-30 people per square kilometer (based on rough average of all other empires during the Roman times) The area suitable for agriculture is roughly 20,000,000 square km in North America and another 10,000,000 square km in South America totaling 30million square kilometers. Extrapolating population density with areas suitable to agriculture and given around 1000-1500 years for saturation to a New Roman population of 350-600million by the 15th century.
Did you find China Columbus?
No, something else.
Then what did you find?
Rome.
Hmmm... Maybe I should write a TL
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Cook
Banned
Saint Brendan seems to have managed it not long after the fall of the Roman Empire and using a traditional Irish vessel. Furthermore he did it when the climate was cooler and conditions in the North Atlantic would have been worse than in Roman Imperial times.
Please do, I would agree with your assessment with a but... But Romans winding up in the Caribean (lets say Cuba for sake of argument) they are going to be thousands of miles away from the nearest iron deposits (probably as far from European deposits as they are from the North American ones which are in Minnesota, Michigan and Quebec). They are also near marginally habitable swamps. Its barely economically viable for the Romans to establish a colony in North America, and that's only if their core areas are safe and doing well economically speaking.