Iran went Communist? Oh dear, I wouldn't be surprised if India intervened solely to get the Zoroastrians out.
Rebuilding After Big Brother: A 1984 Story
- Thread starter DrDerp
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- 1984 nineteen eighty four
For all this talk of Ireland, Northern Ireland seems oddly absent in all this. What happened to them when Oceania took over in Britain?
stirlingdraka
Donor
I`m in Belfast and could help out with NI. However, your depiction of the South after the rise of Ingsoc makes perfect sense.
Thanks. I wasn't sure what to do with NI to be honest. I didn't know how this might play out regarding stuff like the religious strife that led to the Troubles.
The Elephant Rises
One of the most dramatic results of the Party's takeover was how the former most prized possession of the British Empire came to possess such a powerful presence on the world stage. India had not even been independent for a decade when Oceania came into being and the effects on international politics became quickly apparent. Prime Minister Nehru made one of the most famous speeches of the twentieth century mere weeks after the Party took power. "The crown has been shattered," he told the Indian public from his office in New Delhi. "Where the jewels land and if they crack, no one can say." India did not recognize the Ingsoc regime as the legitimate British government, maintaining close ties to the government in exile in Ottawa. Any British citizen within the country was granted the right to stay indefinitely if they chose. Though relations with South Africa gradually chilled, Australia and New Zealand remained firm partners.
Two issues became the crux of Indian foreign policy, independence from either ideological camp of the Cold War and creating ties with the new nations created from the dissolution of the British Empire. Its infrastructure projects were overseen by experts trained in both the US and Soviet Union. Creating a situation where India was not a junior partner in dealings with either country was seen as paramount in order to ensure that neither gained undue influence over New Delhi and undermined its credibility to non-aligned countries. This resulted in Indian diplomats being seen as slippery by both Washington and Moscow. The Peoples Republic of China was considered to be the greatest threat to India's security despite its rocky relationship with Pakistan. When tensions with Beijing rose, the Indian military began creating mountainside bunkers and supply dumps in the parts of the Himalayas where it was feasible. India also contributed forces during the Hong Kong Intervention as well as the UN efforts within China after the Communist Party fell.
India became a supporter of newly independent countries that formed after the British Empire collapsed. Kenya, Singapore, Uganda and Nigeria all became close partners. Its relationship with Israel was an awkward one until the 1970s. Yugoslavia became a close ally of New Delhi, with strong credibility among those who wished to avoid becoming tangled in the sphere of influence of either superpower. Multiple Yugoslav companies did business in India and even had branch offices in the country.
In the aftermath of Oceania's creation, India underwent a massive campaign to modernize its infrastructure and society. Close attention was paid to Interstate highway system in the US when plans were drawn up for a similar system in India. A national power grid was constructed too, an undertaking that received a great deal of press attention and became a passion project of multiple Prime Ministers. The infrastructure campaign was a mimic of the projects undertaken by the Roosevelt administration in the 1930s. Education was overhauled as well, with literacy courses being held in public squares, on radio and on television. Healthcare reform contributed to the gradual decline of diseases like typhoid and polio. Sex ed was a difficult topic but the curriculum focused on avoidance of STDs and avoiding unwanted pregnancies. Despite still simmering religious tensions, members of the country's numerous religious communities were all heavily involved with the modernization efforts.
By far India's greatest foreign policy achievement was the creation of the Commonwealth, a political entity representing the interests of Britain's former colonies. The result of nearly fifty years of groundwork, the Commonwealth was founded in the early 1990s in a ceremony in New Delhi attended by the leaders of its initial member nations. Its leading body is the Commonwealth Council, which meets in a new location every two years.
Two issues became the crux of Indian foreign policy, independence from either ideological camp of the Cold War and creating ties with the new nations created from the dissolution of the British Empire. Its infrastructure projects were overseen by experts trained in both the US and Soviet Union. Creating a situation where India was not a junior partner in dealings with either country was seen as paramount in order to ensure that neither gained undue influence over New Delhi and undermined its credibility to non-aligned countries. This resulted in Indian diplomats being seen as slippery by both Washington and Moscow. The Peoples Republic of China was considered to be the greatest threat to India's security despite its rocky relationship with Pakistan. When tensions with Beijing rose, the Indian military began creating mountainside bunkers and supply dumps in the parts of the Himalayas where it was feasible. India also contributed forces during the Hong Kong Intervention as well as the UN efforts within China after the Communist Party fell.
India became a supporter of newly independent countries that formed after the British Empire collapsed. Kenya, Singapore, Uganda and Nigeria all became close partners. Its relationship with Israel was an awkward one until the 1970s. Yugoslavia became a close ally of New Delhi, with strong credibility among those who wished to avoid becoming tangled in the sphere of influence of either superpower. Multiple Yugoslav companies did business in India and even had branch offices in the country.
In the aftermath of Oceania's creation, India underwent a massive campaign to modernize its infrastructure and society. Close attention was paid to Interstate highway system in the US when plans were drawn up for a similar system in India. A national power grid was constructed too, an undertaking that received a great deal of press attention and became a passion project of multiple Prime Ministers. The infrastructure campaign was a mimic of the projects undertaken by the Roosevelt administration in the 1930s. Education was overhauled as well, with literacy courses being held in public squares, on radio and on television. Healthcare reform contributed to the gradual decline of diseases like typhoid and polio. Sex ed was a difficult topic but the curriculum focused on avoidance of STDs and avoiding unwanted pregnancies. Despite still simmering religious tensions, members of the country's numerous religious communities were all heavily involved with the modernization efforts.
By far India's greatest foreign policy achievement was the creation of the Commonwealth, a political entity representing the interests of Britain's former colonies. The result of nearly fifty years of groundwork, the Commonwealth was founded in the early 1990s in a ceremony in New Delhi attended by the leaders of its initial member nations. Its leading body is the Commonwealth Council, which meets in a new location every two years.
stirlingdraka
Donor
Now on NI with Ingsoc that close I would think the Troubles are going be calmer. Not even the Unionists are going like that GB and yes, the more militarised South would unnerve them which would cause incidents between them and the Nationalists. If America or the Indian led Commonwealth steps in earlier, then some form of peace agreement could be worked out. With more immigration to the US, NZ, Australia, and Canada.
The chances are that following the fall of Insoc many of the Oceanan veterans of the "Malabar Front" would probably discover that they'd actually been in Northern Ireland all along and that the Eurasian/Eastasian (delete as appropriate) forces they'd been facing off against and perhaps even occasionally engaging were actually Irish or NATO forces.
The NI border would probably look something like a cross between the Western Front in WW1 and the Berlin Wall with trenches, fortifications and a no man's land. Oceanan soldiers were probably used to prevent thought Criminals or "agents of Goldstien" escaping to Ireland.
The NI border would probably look something like a cross between the Western Front in WW1 and the Berlin Wall with trenches, fortifications and a no man's land. Oceanan soldiers were probably used to prevent thought Criminals or "agents of Goldstien" escaping to Ireland.
It's possible, but if that were the case, then where are the East Asian or Eurasian POWs come from?
So they are in a state of abused infantilizing? In which rapture and abhorrence are mixed togethet, like a twisted milkshake.
I would be interested in hearing about American relations with the Oceanian regime and the UK government/monarchy in exile in Ottawa and also Ian Smith's Rhodesia vis a vis the INGSOC regime. What happened to British popular music in Oceania? Did the members of the Beatles and their families ( plus many familiar ones) flee to Ireland or the States? I can picture the Fab Four moving to Dublin as it is across from Liverpool and they are of Irish extraction as well.
Torture until they had all the information they could squeeze out of them then kill them. Don't really see any other possibility.
These are very excellent questions.
It would seem to me, that the Fab Four, would vamoose to Dublin. A nation once again. Smith would hate the large number of folk he saw as unqualified.
More or less. I would look at it as a persistent immaturity, posturing to maturity and denial of maturity reinforced by both the State and the inner person as crafted by the State.
I don't know if I can expand on the idea any more than I have. All I can really add is there is always the personal drive for "self". That can be selfishness or self understanding, but anything regarding the self. That is the problem with Authoritarians. People can happily abdicate themselves up to the State, but it is a matter of feeling greater by being part of something.
The self done badly is a problematic monstrosity: a psychological mess of insecurities, resentments, defensiveness, aggression, denial and a lack of proper mental understanding and tools to attain any enlightenment. What is not within must be gained from without, and then taken within the person to change. That is the other horror of a totalitarian society: there is nothing to inform outside the person that is complicated or optional. There's no debate or discussion, and I mean that on more levels than one person against or to another. I mean that with any level and form of consideration and comparison on the value and meaning of concepts. The individual cannot reflect the truth in a tyranny because there is only one "truth" as decreed by the State.
No matter what, the one thing I've taken from life is there are many things that are false and many things that are on the path to truth, but anyone that says they have all the answers and this is the exact and total answer is either lying, overstating or honest but wrong. The most honest systems are the ones that bake in discussion, debate and consideration on the thesis that we do not absolutely know and there are things on which we must abdicate any illusions of absolute knowledge or ownership. We cannot personalize them and thereby take offense at normal consideration and disagreement. We must have civil discourse and be willing to reform, renew and change. That is a matter as much for the inner person as social structures.
In short, that is reflected in maturity. Maturity is not a matter of age. It is a matter of the inner self and the relationship of that to ourselves, each other, our structures and the world and whatever mechanisms guide reality. That journey is completely individual and the work is individual because it is interior, but it need not be done alone. It is complicated by ourselves and our psychologies and our understandings, as well as our posturing, assumptions and presumptions. It comes with fits and starts; long roads and dead ends. My examples would be the 14 year old who acts like they're their idea of an adult or the Karen/Kyle who yells at the cashier over their own delusions and ignorance of the world. Maturity is about making peace with yourself and God (metaphorically or literally).
To me, in our world, Winston Smith is part teenager trying to understand the world and himself when he has all the teenage assumptions that these people know something he doesn't and have it all figured out and he is an outcast faking it till he makes it, and part newly divorced man trying to understand the world and himself again and learning that understanding is actually a new one.
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Time heals all wounds and an exterior enemy has a habit of bringing people together. Such is your example with India. Such is the historic example of the Second World War and the aftermath of the Cold War. A drastic example comes to mind in how rapidly De-Nazification was wrapped up, how the issue was exploded in the 1970s by the next generation of Germans realizing the sins of their parents and grandparents had often been quietly covered up for. Coming to terms is still an ongoing debate in Germany (see the Clean Whermacht myth backlash and defense). Related to that is how Germany was quickly allowed to have a military again when the Cold War was realized to be not just a passing phase.
But given British relations to Ireland and a history written in blood, I do wonder how ugly things will be for the first generations of British refugees. There's the external threat of Oceania and the Soviets. There's also the shock of the "normal" changing in a way that no one would have expected. That would certainly be traumatic, and always was for the victims of the bloody events of the 20th century. But the road to reconciliation between British refugees and Irish nationals seems like it would have its own traumas and victims and many episodes to show that.
I do enjoy that you're doing this as personal experiences for most entries. I think that is the way to do it: the human face and the human cost. I also feel it embodies much of what 1984 covered: the human condition as a subject, or victim, of forces outside of their control but which sweep them up completely. They can only react or act as best they can, trying to keep or find who they are and express it. Its like trying to swim a river. And there's always a "them" but even "them" do not really control everything or the "them" someone imagines may not even exist. Its Man vs Man, Man versus Many, Man vs State, Man versus God and Man vs Self. Reality outside Oceania is a mirror reflecting the psychology of Oceania.
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I'm familiar with theories that most of what the Party tells the citizens of Oceania about the outside world is false, but it seems like the gist of it was that most of the rest world was, in fact, some sort of deserted wasteland, and that at most maybe Eurasia and Eastasia also controlled small, isolated pockets of civilization but without the large scale wars reported in the "official" news. This story is different in that it has the events of the novel taking place in what otherwise resembles the actual post-WWII world. Did the Inner Party maintain any clandestine contacts with other governments, and was anyone willing to support them as a useful bulwark against NATO (kind of like OTL China's support of North Korea)? Or did the Inner Party all doublethink themselves into believing that other governments didn't exist anyway? Also, are Winston and Julia still alive somewhere, and had they completely succumbed to love of Big Brother by the time that the country is liberated?
I have to say, I'm a bit skeptical that the Big Brother regime would be able to pull this off for very long in a world where technology, long-distance travel, and mass communication are still developing at their OTL pace outside Oceania. Would the Party really be able to keep people from tuning into radio broadcasts from outside Oceania, for example? Though I suppose they could always try to pass off any inconvenient revelations as propaganda by Goldstein's organization and/or Eurasia or Eastasia (depending on who they're officially fighting).
I have to say, I'm a bit skeptical that the Big Brother regime would be able to pull this off for very long in a world where technology, long-distance travel, and mass communication are still developing at their OTL pace outside Oceania. Would the Party really be able to keep people from tuning into radio broadcasts from outside Oceania, for example? Though I suppose they could always try to pass off any inconvenient revelations as propaganda by Goldstein's organization and/or Eurasia or Eastasia (depending on who they're officially fighting).
I have some opinions.
One, I offer the idea that Oceania may be a trading depot for organized crime organizations and that may be a source of any number of substances.
Two, I always assumed that Winston and Julia were just awaiting eventual death at the hands of the party, truly broken and emptied and sacrificed before the nation as wretches who still loved Big Brother.
Three, I think the communications issue is where doublethink really comes into play. The scary thing is that modern extreme tyrannies have shown you can genuinely convince people the entire definition, value and meaning of things if you raise them from birth to think the way you want them to think. If you tell people to only tune into this broadcast and that all others are a mortal sin, they will do it in such a State. If you tell people to ignore what they hear because it will make their ears burn in such a State, they'll believe it. They may even psychosomatically literally feel their ears burning or their ears may even actually start to burn.
Also, the Party controls reality, history and knowledge. Words like "India", "American", "UN" are likely to be heard as gibberish. To the older generation, such words may have some meaning but they're buried under years of suppression and memory is a fickle, fleeting and nebulous thing. Without definition and tradition, a memory falls into an ocean from which it is hard to recover that one unique thing in its full context ever again. Memory is not what happened. Its an impression representing what happened. Every time it is recalled, it is remade. Every time it isn't thought about, it is lost. Its soft wax or clay. If someone wants to shape that for you, it is disgustingly easy.
That may be the first steps in what becomes Newspeak: the lie and control of the world and the control and crafting of the human soul outside, followed by reaching directly into the human soul and mind inside, followed by changing the very ability of concepts to occur so the system naturally continues without any directing... except for the Proles. The Party's ability to do any of that relies on its self assumptions. As this history shows, human nature was inevitably stronger than the Party and the Party was weaker and less all powerful than it believed itself to be. Tyranny is a house of cheap, dry wood. It only takes one spark and the whole thing inevitably goes up.
What is love
Bristol
If romance was simple, it wouldn't be fulfilling. That was what Simone's mother told her after she heard how her parents met. While they disliked each other at first then became friends, it was how they helped each other grow as people that made them fall in love. Simone's mother helped her dad overcome most of the trauma he experienced in Hong Kong and he helped her finally kick her abusive parents to the curb. Their love was built on how they strengthened each other.
Simone sometimes wondered if she was helping her girlfriend become stronger as a person or actually make her problems worse.
Dating an British woman was an interesting experience for Simone. She was helping with the restoration of infrastructure in the city and met Janet after a public briefing on their progress. This was two years ago, and the two became friends after a while. Janet took a keen interest in the rebuilding efforts and showered Simone with questions during meetups at a coffee shop. She was stunned to find out that Janet was a lesbian like her, but was still trying to understand what that meant. Janet was sixteen when NATO carried out its offensive and it was only after many meetings with a psychiatrist that she realized she harbored romantic feelings toward members of her Anti-Sex League cell.
A large part of why Janet was so confused about this aspect of herself was because she tried forcing herself to be ignorant of her feelings through Doublethink. She understood that her feelings constituted Thoughtcrime and the penalty for being found out was a grave one. Even after the fall of the Ingsoc regime, she felt torn between her ingrained denial of her feelings and her desire to further understand them. The internet helped answer many of her questions but it was still a tremendous effort getting to the point where she could accept the fact she was attracted to women and wanted to spend her life with one.
It made Simone wonder how long it would take before the British LGBTQ community was able to openly embrace their identity. The dissonance created by the need to evade the Thought Police was bound to create some very jumbled up feelings among those who knew on some level that they didn't conform to certain Party expectations.
That was only one of two problems though. Simone knew she loved Janet as a person. But there was still that question which gnawed away at her from time to time.
How much did Janet love her as a person and how much did she love her as a perceived superior? Janet grew up in a society where love and submission had the same meaning. The only acceptable love was for the Party, Big Brother, and one's superiors. And it was a no brainer as to who wore the pants in the relationship. That wouldn't be too concerning if it wasn't for the fact that Janet appeared to see carrying out Simone's instructions as a form of intimate activity, be it washing the dishes in their apartment or being sent on errands. Janet's green eyes seemed to shimmer when Simone gave her a directive to follow. She rarely initiated intimate activity herself and seemed to relish being in a subordinate position to Simone.
Simone was still trying to figure out how much of Janet's affection was the result of Simone being her girlfriend and how much of it was the result of her being Janet's perceived superior. Did some part of Janet see Simone as a stand in for the Party, a figure of authority to defer to and enjoy it? Simone wanted a lover, not a servant girl.
All things considered though, she didn't mind the image of Janet in a maid outfit bringing her breakfast in bed with a smile on her face, asking if 'her ladyship wanted anything else'. In fact, Simone was quite confident she'd rock that look.
If romance was simple, it wouldn't be fulfilling. That was what Simone's mother told her after she heard how her parents met. While they disliked each other at first then became friends, it was how they helped each other grow as people that made them fall in love. Simone's mother helped her dad overcome most of the trauma he experienced in Hong Kong and he helped her finally kick her abusive parents to the curb. Their love was built on how they strengthened each other.
Simone sometimes wondered if she was helping her girlfriend become stronger as a person or actually make her problems worse.
Dating an British woman was an interesting experience for Simone. She was helping with the restoration of infrastructure in the city and met Janet after a public briefing on their progress. This was two years ago, and the two became friends after a while. Janet took a keen interest in the rebuilding efforts and showered Simone with questions during meetups at a coffee shop. She was stunned to find out that Janet was a lesbian like her, but was still trying to understand what that meant. Janet was sixteen when NATO carried out its offensive and it was only after many meetings with a psychiatrist that she realized she harbored romantic feelings toward members of her Anti-Sex League cell.
A large part of why Janet was so confused about this aspect of herself was because she tried forcing herself to be ignorant of her feelings through Doublethink. She understood that her feelings constituted Thoughtcrime and the penalty for being found out was a grave one. Even after the fall of the Ingsoc regime, she felt torn between her ingrained denial of her feelings and her desire to further understand them. The internet helped answer many of her questions but it was still a tremendous effort getting to the point where she could accept the fact she was attracted to women and wanted to spend her life with one.
It made Simone wonder how long it would take before the British LGBTQ community was able to openly embrace their identity. The dissonance created by the need to evade the Thought Police was bound to create some very jumbled up feelings among those who knew on some level that they didn't conform to certain Party expectations.
That was only one of two problems though. Simone knew she loved Janet as a person. But there was still that question which gnawed away at her from time to time.
How much did Janet love her as a person and how much did she love her as a perceived superior? Janet grew up in a society where love and submission had the same meaning. The only acceptable love was for the Party, Big Brother, and one's superiors. And it was a no brainer as to who wore the pants in the relationship. That wouldn't be too concerning if it wasn't for the fact that Janet appeared to see carrying out Simone's instructions as a form of intimate activity, be it washing the dishes in their apartment or being sent on errands. Janet's green eyes seemed to shimmer when Simone gave her a directive to follow. She rarely initiated intimate activity herself and seemed to relish being in a subordinate position to Simone.
Simone was still trying to figure out how much of Janet's affection was the result of Simone being her girlfriend and how much of it was the result of her being Janet's perceived superior. Did some part of Janet see Simone as a stand in for the Party, a figure of authority to defer to and enjoy it? Simone wanted a lover, not a servant girl.
All things considered though, she didn't mind the image of Janet in a maid outfit bringing her breakfast in bed with a smile on her face, asking if 'her ladyship wanted anything else'. In fact, Simone was quite confident she'd rock that look.
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