Question: Wolsey Elected As Pope, What Next?

[Kellan Sullivan]

Many historical dramas set during the early reign of Henry VIII (The Tudors, Wolf Hall, Carlos, King and Emperor - even Borgia references it IIRC) focus on the fact that Thomas Wolsey had ambitions to become pope. But them (and most history books) are silent about just exactly Wolsey planned to do once esconced in the Vatican. He was an adept politician, but his comment of "had I served my God as devotedly as I served my king" implies that religion played second fiddle to his ambitions.

So, if Wolsey WERE (by some stroke of luck) elected pope what policies would Rome take? OTL at the conclave of 1522-23 the cardinals refused to elect him on grounds of him being "too young" (never mind that Wolsey had just hit 50 and Leone X had been 35yo). And the front runners were Giulio de Medici (five years younger than Wolsey) and Alessandro Farnese (five years older).

Would Wolsey's humanistic streak endear him more to the Romans than Adriaen of Utrecht? What would become of the situation in England - does More go into the chancellorship earlier? Does Cromwell accompany Wolsey to Rome (oh the shit and giggles there )? How does Wolsey deal with the Great Matter (he didn't like Katherine of Aragon - or at least, every historical drama series shows them disliking each other - but he can't risk pissing off the emperor)? How does he deal with Luther? As said, his religious life played second fiddle to politics and a comment in Wolf Hall "Wolsey burned BOOKS, More will burn people!" suggests that Wolsey will take a different stance to the German monk than his OTL counterparts.

 

[The Professor]

I suspect he'll be such a pragmatic Pope that the Reformation goes very differently. I can't see him dealing with Luther as badly as OTL. And Henry probably gets an annulment that doesn't affect Catherine's status worse.
We might get a Catholic Church that follows a more "communion of national rites" but maintains most of the Pope's status as its head.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I suspect he'll be such a pragmatic Pope that the Reformation goes very differently. I can't see him dealing with Luther as badly as OTL. And Henry probably gets an annulment that doesn't affect Catherine's status worse.
We might get a Catholic Church that follows a more "communion of national rites" but maintains most of the Pope's status as its head.

Would it be entirely ASB to imagine Wolsey not "protecting" Luther but demanding that he come to Rome to explain himself?

 

[UCB79]

Would it be entirely ASB to imagine Wolsey not "protecting" Luther but demanding that he come to Rome to explain himself?

Luther, regardless of who was Pope, would NEVER have gone to Rome. He remembered all too well what happened to Jan Hus.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Luther, regardless of who was Pope, would
NEVER have gone to Rome. He remembered
all too well what happened to Jan Hus.

This is true.

Am I wrong in imagining that Wolsey's papacy might be a thing of "bread and circuses", perhaps him revisiting his idea of a "Perpetual Peace Treaty" of the 1510s in order to retake Constantinople? Or was the Reformation to far gone for such an idea to be feasible?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Any thoughts about how things in England will progress with Wolsey removed from the centre of power in London? Would/could Percy and Anne Boleyn get hitched here? Or has Henry VIII already taken a shine to her?

 

[isabella]

Any thoughts about how things in England will progress with Wolsey removed from the centre of power in London? Would/could Percy and Anne Boleyn get hitched here? Or has Henry VIII already taken a shine to her?

This is a good question. Likely Henry VIII is not already interested to Anne so if Henry Percy is more decisive than OTL is possible who he and Anne will marry

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

This is a good question. Likely Henry VIII is not already interested to Anne so if Henry Percy is more decisive than OTL is possible who he and Anne will marry

Which means Anne might get a happy ending after all. And Henry won't go through wives like toothpaste. I don't say Katherine of Aragon will step aside willingly, but if the pope issues an annulment, can anyone in Europe contest it/force him to retract it?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Out of curiosity, Wolsey's pro-French attitudes were well-known, would he keep these attitudes as pope? Or would he turn to a more balanced policy (I mean, Julius II and Leo X were both pro-French until being elected, but not necessarily afterwards).

 

[isabella]

Which means Anne might get a happy ending after all. And Henry won't go through wives like toothpaste. I don't say Katherine of Aragon will step aside willingly, but if the pope issues an annulment, can anyone in Europe contest it/force him to retract it?

If the Pope accepted the annulment no, it is definitive (but Mary will remain a princess and her father’s heiress presuntive)...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

If the Pope accepted the annulment no, it is definitive (but Mary will remain a princess and her father’s heiress presuntive)...

Sounds about right. And I imagine that Mary will get a happier ending TTL than OTL? I can't say the same for Katherine though. Will she accept the annulment knowing that the pope who issued it is the same minister who hated her?

 

[VVD0D95]

Sounds about right. And I imagine that Mary will get a happier ending TTL than OTL? I can't say the same for Katherine though. Will she accept the annulment knowing that the pope who issued it is the same minister who hated her?

I think she'd have to wouldn't she? The Pope is the final authority after all

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I think she'd have to wouldn't she? The Pope is the final authority after all

And Katherine's sorta painted herself into a nice corner here. Since she said she would only accept judgement from Rome. Although I wonder if she'd still make such a statement knowing that the occupant of St. Peter's throne is the same cardinal she was often at cross purposes with in England? @desmirelle @BlueFlowwer

 

[VVD0D95]

And Katherine's sorta painted herself into a nice corner here. Since she said she would only accept judgement from Rome. Although I wonder if she'd still make such a statement knowing that the occupant of St. Peter's throne is the same cardinal she was often at cross purposes with in England? @desmirelle @BlueFlowwer

It would certainly make things fascinating

 

[isabella]

Sounds about right. And I imagine that Mary will get a happier ending TTL than OTL? I can't say the same for Katherine though. Will she accept the annulment knowing that the pope who issued it is the same minister who hated her?

I think she'd have to wouldn't she? The Pope is the final authority after all

Well is not like Catherine and Charles had other choices... Wolsey is the Pope now and his authority is incontestable so they need to accept said verdict. Karl in particular will be fuming as he has no relative of the right age to offer to Henry as Eleanor is too old, Mary will not remarry while Renee of France is exactly of the right age

 

[isabella]

And Katherine's sorta painted herself into a nice corner here. Since she said she would only accept judgement from Rome. Although I wonder if she'd still make such a statement knowing that the occupant of St. Peter's throne is the same cardinal she was often at cross purposes with in England? @desmirelle @BlueFlowwer

She will say the same as she was a fanatic religious who firmly believed who her destiny for God’s will was to be Queen of England and had already started to believe the same for her daughter Mary...

 

[desmirelle]

I think it would bankrupt England. Cost a lot of money to become pope in the 16th century.

And since it is the 16th century:
Who would be tempted to assassinate "England's Pope"?

Who would be tempted to go after an England that can't afford to pay it's armies or for mercenaries?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I think it would bankrupt England. Cost a lot of money to become pope in the 16th century.

And since it is the 16th century:
Who would be tempted to assassinate "England's Pope"?

Who would be tempted to go after an England that can't afford to pay it's armies or for mercenaries?

Well, AIUI, both François' and Karl's finances were stretched. That was why the Connetable de Bourbon struggled to control his troops when they took Rome IIRC, because they hadn't been paid in a good while, so they sorta just picked up whatever they could carry.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

Luther, regardless of who was Pope, would NEVER have gone to Rome. He remembered all too well what happened to Jan Hus.

Why would the memory of Jan Hus be strong here? Jan Hus was granted good conduct by the Church on his arrival in Constance (within the Empire, not Papal lands) and was treated with good conduct until his declaration of heresy. After which, the Church representatives handed Jan Hus to be given a judgement by Sigismund of Luxembourg, who ruled in favor of his death. Sigismund, who wished to unite Europe under his power as evident by his attempts at European peace at the attempted Treaty of Armagnac and The subsequent Anglo-Imperial treaty, brought us to his main intention for killing Jan Hus, namely imperial integrity and unity. A symbol of the schism such as Jan Hus, could not be allowed to live and especially not in the sense of his relation to the Bohemian people and other vestiges of schism within the Empire or outside of it in Europe at large.

Martin Luther accepted meeting with Church officials at Worms and was allowed to live despite not recanting his views. These are signs of a weak Church, one that was willing to dance along with Martin Luther until they could do so no longer. Had Martin Luther met the church officials on 1300, Boniface VIII would have had his head most surely. Martin Luther was dealing with the Renaissance Papacy, who other than Alexander VI, was renowned fort their weakness and submission to secular authorities. Even Pope Adrian VI noted a need fro reform in 1522, and his and his successors indecision on the matter should be considered. It took them at least 12 years to make a move upon the Reformation and still these efforts were minor and often dependent upon secular rulers to be their emissaries. This is due to the nature of the Papacy post-1424, was one of general decrepitude aside from the period of Alexander VI and a few other outliers. If this Wolsey is pontiff, I do not see how he could be much more 'progressive' than Leo X or Adrian VI, who mentioned need for reform and acting as if there was common cause with Luther.

 

[LostInTheFantasy]

I think it would bankrupt England. Cost a lot of money to become pope in the 16th century.

And since it is the 16th century:
Who would be tempted to assassinate "England's Pope"?

Who would be tempted to go after an England that can't afford to pay it's armies or for mercenaries?

But isn't that just like H8? He spent of his rule in debt