Question for Readers, Assyrian Timeline and America

[John7755 يوحنا]

Fairly straight forward. The idea is do I wish to include into the timeline that I am already working on and in process of; a pod for the American continents. This question is asked, as I am surely interested in realizing a particular thread regarding a maritime Maya civilization. This maritime Maya timeline, could be accelerated to the past, that is permit the development of maritime traditions in coastal Mesoamerica prior to the Classical period of 250-900 CE.

The main reason that I wished to consider this, is that usually when Mesoamerican wanks and or changes are made, they always operate in tls wherein the 'Old World' does not change from otl, and the peoples of America encounter the Spanish, Portuguese, etc and most importantly, Christianity. The big question is what would the interaction be between a Europe and or African society (or for that matter East Asia or South Asia) radically different than their otl engagement, especially, those which are polytheistic. Needless to say, I would like to put the question to task. I have many ideas regarding this already.

However, it is also possible to simply let Mesoamerica progress as normal. Though without maritime cultures developing, we will not have the same level of possible contact. Some may remember a thread I made regarding America and the Old World and interactions from west to east rather than the opposite as was otl.

For the question, I would like to include the more consistent readers and contributors to the tl and also some that I have discussed the tl with. Also, I would like to include figures who may have some interest in such a POD.

@Samm ,, @Beanstalk ,, @Falecius ,, @Shahrasayr ,, @Rooki ,, @dakkafex ,, @Emperor of Greater India ,, @AnonymousSauce ,, @Sphenodon ,, @9 Fanged Hummingbird ,, @Practical Lobster ,, @tus3 ,, @LostInNewDelhi ,, @Pralaya ,, etc... Anyone can contribute though, I am open to discussion from anyone.

 

[Falecius]

My first instincts would be, leave America as is, unless the change is something that flows logically and organically from the main POD to affect developments there.
I know this is not technically realistic even if it sounds so (due to chaotic weather patterns, events in the Americas have already subtly diverged in your TL even if the broad outline is likely the same - I also see that you are choosing a relativaley conservative approach to butterflies by having people born long after the POD such as Herodotus and Socrates - though they may be genetically different people for all we know).
However, the divergence you suggest is so interesting that I actually changed my mind - it would be a fascinating world to explore, especially if you can justify an American secondary POD that somehow follows organically from the main one, or more simply put: do you think that a surviving Assyrian Empire somehow may make it more likely for the Mesoamericans to develop earlier and better sailing, and if so, why?
Even if it is just a random low-probability path, however, it would make for an interesting narrative. A more evenly matched and earlier *Columbian exchange can be fun to read about.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

My first instincts would be, leave America as is, unless the change is something that flows logically and organically from the main POD to affect developments there.
I know this is not technically realistic even if it sounds so (due to chaotic weather patterns, events in the Americas have already subtly diverged in your TL even if the broad outline is likely the same - I also see that you are choosing a relativaley conservative approach to butterflies by having people born long after the POD such as Herodotus and Socrates - though they may be genetically different people for all we know).
However, the divergence you suggest is so interesting that I actually changed my mind - it would be a fascinating world to explore, especially if you can justify an American secondary POD that somehow follows organically from the main one, or more simply put: do you think that a surviving Assyrian Empire somehow may make it more likely for the Mesoamericans to develop earlier and better sailing, and if so, why?
Even if it is just a random low-probability path, however, it would make for an interesting narrative. A more evenly matched and earlier *Columbian exchange can be fun to read about.

Exactly. As far as I know, there is no atl on the site that deals with an altered Mesoamerica interacting with a frankly, Non-Christian/Muslim/Jewish Europe or Africa. It would be totally unique. Likewise, the fact that the Celts or Punic peoples might play a large part in this, gives some tantalizing ideas of cultural exchange that I would be interested, with help, in fleshing out. It would however be far bit into the future, Assyria will be not the same, so the readers need not worry its affect upon Assyria. But as I have outlined elsewhere, the tl is not meant to be the Akakdian-timeline only, but one wherein the Akkadian mythos remains stronger due to a burning cauldron seated in the center of Europe-Asia, causing chaos and bringing simultaneous order to the areas surrounding it.

 

[Shahrasayr]

All it takes is for minor butterflies if you want to justify things like this usually. But you got some pretty massive ones.

I remember we brainstormed the Assyrian geopolitik consisting of controlling the migratory patterns back and forth across the steppe when they finish the construction of their walls and network of vassals and sattelite towns. Having a confederation of Scythians like the Massagetae devastatingly lose a conflict could set off a domino effect, one of their sub-tribes igratign north into Siberia, fighting local tribes like the Nenets and Khanty and starting a chain effect of conquest which displaces many tribes, causing say the Yukhagir to cross the Bering strait and introduce reindeer herding alongside dog sledding to the Americas. This domino chain eventually continues as long as you can justify it till the Mayans develop some sort of maritime culture.

 

[Rooki]

I've voted for leaving America as is until contact, but I've selected that option hoping that this contact could potentially come much earlier than our time due to the butterflies as noted by Falecius and Shahrasayr above.

It sounds like you've got something really cool in the works though so if another POD is required in the Americas go for it imo. I trust your judgement and I don't want to miss out just because it could make the TL 'neater' or whatever.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

All it takes is for minor butterflies if you want to justify things like this usually. But you got some pretty massive ones.

I remember we brainstormed the Assyrian geopolitik consisting of controlling the migratory patterns back and forth across the steppe when they finish the construction of their walls and network of vassals and sattelite towns. Having a confederation of Scythians like the Massagetae devastatingly lose a conflict could set off a domino effect, one of their sub-tribes igratign north into Siberia, fighting local tribes like the Nenets and Khanty and starting a chain effect of conquest which displaces many tribes, causing say the Yukhagir to cross the Bering strait and introduce reindeer herding alongside dog sledding to the Americas. This domino chain eventually continues as long as you can justify it till the Mayans develop some sort of maritime culture.

Mhmm... This is possible. There is also the Turkic element in the northeast in this period in Siberia, they could possibly also cross, creating an interesting Altaic movement into Alaska. Though, I am unsure how much effect this could have and what could actually meaningfully be carried into America from Siberia. Horses may be totally out of the question for instance. The Scythians will also be unable to cross, so we will be unable to see the transmission of the 'predatory nomadic' cultural expression common in Central Asia replicated into America.

 

[Shahrasayr]

Mhmm... This is possible. There is also the Turkic element in the northeast in this period in Siberia, they could possibly also cross, creating an interesting Altaic movement into Alaska. Though, I am unsure how much effect this could have and what could actually meaningfully be carried into America from Siberia. Horses may be totally out of the question for instance. The Scythians will also be unable to cross, so we will be unable to see the transmission of the 'predatory nomadic' cultural expression common in Central Asia replicated into America.

Oh yeah, definitely. Any Scythian elements themselves reaching the Americas really leans to the side of implausible. But the ancestors of the Innuit people made the migration from Siberia just prior to the 1st millenium AD, there's no reason one couldn't be triggered causing some Tungusic or Paleo-Siberian groups to make the journey across. Once that hurdle is passed you can spin it however you would like to.

 

[Samm]

Add me to the number who voted for Leave America as it is. but when I read your actual plans grew more positive towards the idea and kind of wich I could change my vote. I generally find spreading a TL out to much to be a dubious idea and believe one should be willing to ignore butterflies since not only can it create a huge amount of extra work but it forces the writer to depart from his area of expertise and interest. However, seeing as you seem to have an actual plan and it seems interesting I would go for it if you think you can. I know very little about the Maya and would be interested in your take on them.

 

[xsampa]

This reminds me of GURPS: Nergal where the successors of the Assyrians, the Sixth Assyrian Empire establish themselves, and North America is colonized by Celts, Vikings, and ultramilitaristic Koreans.

 

[Pralaya]

In my humble opinion, it depends on whether you already have something specific events in mind on the Americas and their future connection to the Old World. Since your timeline started in the 7th century BCE and we're slowly approaching the 5th century BCE, I'd say there may be enough butterflies by the following centuries due to different weather patterns alone that some things must have changed in the New World.
You could force the change by silently pushing some Turkic elements slowly but steadily towards OTL Kamchatka and then Alaska through butterflies, but in all honesty, by that point, you could surely come up with something more creative with an entire world in your hands.

But I've said it before and I'll say it again, it depends on whether you already have something specific events in mind on the Americas, in my opinion, we don't need to see forced updates on America. But I'm not going to lie here when I'm saying that an encounter of a completely different pre-"Columbian" America and a completely different Afro-Eurasia would be extremely fascinating.

 

[Zincvit]

I myself don't like the POD proposed because it removed the biggest advantage of the Turkic-speaking peoples (being nomadic horse-riders). and basically adds nothing new to the story beacause they will just be like the Inuits (another migratory people). So I choose the "leave the Americas alone" option.