PQ 17.5

[Cryhavoc101]

At 10 km its a case of no one not even Yamato's or hell even the most armored of the Tillman designs has armor rated to keep capital grade firepower out. With perhaps the exception of the germans 11" guns

Exactly it would be who hits and degrades the enemy faster - the British had been planning to fight at longer ranges than that from the beginning of WW1

It would only be a situation like 4th Savo Island when the IJN and USN BBs 'bumped' into each other at pretty much point blank range which saw the SoDak gettign duffed up at close range and then the Kirishima in turn crippled by Washington

And I cannot see the RN getting bounced like that - not by mid 1941

It was they that 'Matapanned' folk at night not the other way round

 

[johnboy]

Germans rarely managed to get the 'weather gauge' during SAG actions vs the RN and I am not convinced that the Axis have the 10km fight either

Actually I think @Gudestein has it correct to a degree. Of course, in capital ship engagements, one bad hit can determine the result.

At longer range, the Germans will really struggle. The MK3 fire control system on Washington could detect a shell splash at 20000yds. Surface and air search. Far ahead of Bis/Tirpitz. Washington has remote power control for traverse and elevation. Tirpitz only on elevation. Fire control calculators quite similar. Night action Washington has every possible advantage. Day action in good weather Tirpitz probably has better optics but far inferior and unreliable radar. Day action bad weather.

This is what B and T were designed for the German main gun has spectacular vertical penetration for its size inside 20000yds but poor deck penetration at all ranges.

If Washington should fight above 22000yds at 24000yds the 2700lb super heavy shell is devastating . Potentially a single shot kill, as the magazine above the shell room is vulnerable at this range. As are the uptakes and Bis/Tirpitz have only 1 set.

Tirpitz will struggle at this range. The belt of Washington with its decaping plate and incline should resist, the turret should also resist the 380mm ,decks are just about invulnerable at any practical range. Duke of York has similar qualities in regards her deck protection.

A Day action in bad weather would be the German's best chance , if both ships get close ie 10,000 to 15,000 yards and Tirpitz gets the first shots in the German flat trajectory gun has its advantages, being just as effective, perhaps more so with the increased muzzle velocity. As far as protection, it was an old design, but this is what the turtle back system was designed for. North Sea combat at 10-16 thousand yards.

Another factor that hampers the German ships at long range is a belt that it comparatively shallow, making them vulnerable to plunging fire that hits below the belt. Also worth mentioning the German ships were bigger so could take more damage. The USN radar in particular was twitchy in bad weather and around land. German optics were better.

 

[johnboy]

1916, 28 June 1942, Reykjavik, Occupied Iceland

Captain Lawrence Dodd had steered the damaged liberty ship Richard Bland back to harbour. She was the first ship to turn back after running aground on uncharted rocks off Iceland. It had taken some Homeric efforts from his own crew and the destroyer HMS Wilton had seen her be stabilised and able to make her own way back to port, whilst Wilton rejoined the convoy.

It was to reduce PQ 17 from 35 to 34 merchant ships.

 

[johnboy]

0400 29 June 1942, Scapa Flow Naval Base, Orkney Islands, United Kingdom

Rear Admiral Drew watched the force form up. Force X they were to be called, the operation itself code-named ES. It was all a rather strange business. The anti-aircraft cruisers Sirius and Curacoa had been working up before their assignment to Operation ES. They formed part of an escort consisting of four destroyers and four anti-submarine trawlers. These were to escort five merchant ships converted to minelayers, together with four colliers.

Following along behind were the large fleet minelayer HMS Adventure, three destroyers, a trawler, a minesweeper and the dummy battleships Resolution and Revenge, in reality the SS Paheka and SS Waimani. Force X was to proceed to a position 621 degrees North and 002 degrees East before reversing course sometime around the 30 June, their purpose to be noticed by German reconnaissance forces and be identified as a real convoy.

PQ 17 was a critical convoy, due to sail from Iceland to Russia on 27 June 1942. A large and heavily escorted convoy carrying vital supplies. In high summer, however, with powerful German air, submarine and surface forces, it was viewed as being extremely vulnerable. In an attempt to confuse the Germans and force them to divert some of their units away from PQ 17, Operation ES was born. This was a decoy convoy which was intended to proceed north-east into the Norwegian Sea from the main British naval base at Scapa Flow in order to attract attention from German reconnaissance units and lure the enemy into allocating forces to attack it. Most of it's components of real warships consisted of ships still working up.
Decoy HMS Revenge and Resolution

 

[johnboy]

0612 29 June 1942, Scapa Flow Naval Base, Orkney Islands, United Kingdom

Two hours after Force X left the huge naval base, the Home Fleet were out. Scapa and it restricted status meant only Royal Navy personnel saw them leaving, but it was a sight that raised the pulse. Three large ships, all in line ahead, Duke of York leading Washington, followed by Victorious. Neither of the former two had seen action, but they were looking for it now. To the casual observer, the American ship looked marginally shorter and squatter, slightly more crowded.

Their screen also sailed. The heavy cruisers Cumberland and Berwick, light cruiser Nigeria, destroyers Ashanti, Blankney, Escapade, Faulknor, Marne, Martin, Middleton, Onslaught, Onslow, Wheatland, plus two U.S destroyers Mayrant and Rhind. The destroyers bows heaved up onto the curling waves, plunging sickeningly down into the troughs, before soaring back upwards again.

The capital ships ploughed there way through, over 40,000 tons of metal took more lifting than even the North Sea could presently produce. Admiral John Tovey watched it all from the bridge of Duke of York. Would the Germans sally forth? He had confidence in his own ships. Duke of York was no Prince of Wales, thrust into combat too early. Then there was the Americans. He was very thankful for the assistance they had provided. King George V was still at Cammell Laird, having her bow repaired after her collision with Punjabi whilst escorting Convoy PQ 15, a collision that ripped the destroyer apart. With Renown at Gibraltar and Prince of Wales, Hood and Repulse sunk, it left no fast battleships available. Indeed, the Royal Navy had lost five capital ships since the start of the war. They had commissioned five as well, but things were tight. Commanding a multi national force was always difficult. Different equipment, training, doctrine. The necessity to place other people's ships in danger. Yet, the American ship and crew seemed capable, as did her Admiral, despite his predecessor bizarrely being lost at sea on the crossing.

 

[johnboy]

Sorry for the delay, but we are going again.

 

[Issei Uzumaki]

Welcome back!

 

[Trevayne]

Welcome back!

Seconded.

 

[johnboy]

1200 30 June 1942, HMS Keppel, one hundred miles southwest of Jan Mayen Island

Commander Broome watched as his own ships took up station on Convoy PQ17, which was finally fully formed. His escort force consisted of six destroyers, four corvettes, two auxiliary AA ships, two submarines, plus two rescue ships. The convoy had been a milk run so far. Now the hard part would begin. Submarine contacts were quite possible from as early as tomorrow. Before dawn tomorrow, the cruiser Covering Force would sail from Seydisfjord in Iceland. His own ships were merely an anti-submarine and anti aircraft screen. If one or both German battleships sailed from Norway, it would not be up to his destroyers to stop them - hopefully. That was why the Home Fleet had sailed.

 

[johnboy]

2212, 30 June 1942, Admiral's sea cabin, Tirpitz

Admiral Schniewind, reviewed the six and a half page operation order he had distributed on 14th June. “Employment of Fleet Forces in the Northern Area against a PQ Convoy.” The mission was simple enough, an attack on Convoy PQ17. After the dismal failure of Operation Sports Palace in March, where 8,230 tonnes of valuable fuel oil was expended for no result and the danger of air launched torpedo bombers again demonstrated, he needed a new plan. The arrival of a second battleship helped. His operation order divided fleet forces into three elements: the Trondheim group, the Narvik group, plus the U-boats.

Three U-boats were stationed northeast of Iceland. Other available U-boats were in position between Jan Mayen and Bear Islands. Others available would be stationed off Bear Island. Upon approval, the forces would sail out to their start points: 1st Combat Group from Trondheim to Gimsøystraumen-Vestfjord; 2nd Combat Group from Narvik to the northern entrance of Altafjord. Each group was to be on position and combat-ready within twenty-four hours after leaving its home base. Four hours prior to the sortie the Luftwaffe would conduct reconnaissance ahead of their line of advance. Within the effective range of the Luftwaffe’s fighter aircraft, close air support would be provided during
all phases of the operation.

The operational situation required concentrated employment of forces, hopefully leading to quick destruction of the convoy. The primary objective was destruction of the enemy’s merchant ships; the convoy’s screening ships were to be attacked only if they threatened the accomplishment of the operational objective. The main objective
would be accomplished faster and more effectively if U-boats and the Luftwaffe provided reliable reconnaissance. The most favorable conditions for the attack would be in the sea area east of Bear Island, between longitudes 20 degrees and 30 degrees East.

Suppression of the strongest enemy force would be the responsibility of the 1st Combat Group. Any returning empty convoys could be ignored, it was the fully laded ships he was after. As soon as Convoy PQ17 was detected and located, the combat groups would take up their stations. This was to be carried out as late as possible, so as to reduce
the time available for the enemy to react. The enemy was to be encircled when his combat power was broken up. If the enemy’s close screen consisted of no more than three cruisers, the attack could be conducted from two directions from the outset; this would result in quicker destruction of the convoy. If not, the escorts was to be reduced and then the convoy was to be encircled. He had stressed that an engagement with superior enemy forces should be avoided, if it was possible to do so. Could the enemy even assemble a superior force was the question? The operation was to be be executed quickly so as to be completed before an enemy force composed of battleships and carriers would have any opportunity to intervene. The operation could be canceled by the fleet commander or by order of Naval Group Command North, however, the action should continue as long as the conditions for success were possible.

 

[Trevayne]

Admiral Schniewind, reviewed the six and a half page operation order he had distributed on 14th June. “Employment of Fleet Forces in the Northern Area against a PQ Convoy.” The mission was simple enough, an attack on Convoy PQ17. After the dismal failure of Operation Sports Palace in March, where 8,230 tonnes of valuable fuel oil was expended for no result and the danger of air launched torpedo bombers again demonstrated, he needed a new plan. The arrival of a second battleship helped. His operation order divided fleet forces into three elements: the Trondheim group, the Narvik group, plus the U-boats.

Tirpitz and Scharnhorst sortieing together. That could be very painful for the convoy although if the British covering force catches them it could be even more painful for the Germans. If both are lost, I can easily see Hitler scrapping the rest of the surface fleet, and in fairness, there wouldn't be much left except destroyers. IIRC there would be no capital ships, the pocket battleships Deutschland and Admiral Scheer, the heavy cruisers Admiral Hipper and Prinz Eugen, and the light cruisers Leipzig, Nürnberg, and Köln.

 

[Navigator]

Tirpitz and Scharnhorst sortieing together. That could be very painful for the convoy although if the British covering force catches them it could be even more painful for the Germans. If both are lost, I can easily see Hitler scrapping the rest of the surface fleet, and in fairness, there wouldn't be much left except destroyers. IIRC there would be no capital ships, the pocket battleships Deutschland and Admiral Scheer, the heavy cruisers Admiral Hipper and Prinz Eugen, and the light cruisers Leipzig, Nürnberg, and Köln.

In TTL the author has PODded before 27 May 1941. Bismarck somehow escapes the 30+ warships converging on her and the Prinz is lost instead. It's about as likely as Balfour and Hughes' afternoon horsetrading leading to HMS Tiger being scrapped alongside the other 13½" gunned ships as the price of building (G3) HMS Invincible and HMS Indomitable as special exemptions to the Five Power treaty.

 

[22000 Kevin]

In TTL the author has PODded before 27 May 1941. Bismarck somehow escapes the 30+ warships converging on her and the Prinz is lost instead.

I'm pretty sure that had it not been for that single Swordfish torpedo bomber jamming the rudder, the Battleship would have plausibly survived its journey.

Here apparently the ship just decides to turn back to Norway after Admiral Luetjens dies from a random stroke or heart attack of some kind, the Germans still let the Prinz Eugen go into the Atlantic, with the British apparently unleashing those +30 warships on the Heavy Cruiser instead with predictable results...

 

[Navigator]

I'm pretty sure that had it not been for that single Swordfish torpedo bomber jamming the rudder, the Battleship would have plausibly survived its journey.

Here apparently the ship just decides to turn back to Norway after Admiral Luetjens dies from a random stroke or heart attack of some kind, the Germans still let the Prinz Eugen go into the Atlantic, with the British apparently unleashing those +30 warships on the Heavy Cruiser instead with predictable results...

HM Ships Prince of Wales, Norfolk and Suffolk are still shadowing Bismarck and Jack Tovey is now taking the Home Fleet into the Iceland/Faroes gap. Churchill was monomaniacal about revenging Hood. Meanwhile, Luftwaffe air cover is even further away.

 

[Trevayne]

So, now the decision was his. The Admiral had wished to go on, but he could see little sense in that. The oil slick would advertise their position to any showing ships, aircraft or submarines, a sure indication they had passed that way. At 0712, the battleship Bismarck rounded on her pursuers, allowing the cruiser Prinz Eugen to continue on into the Atlantic, but to little success, the cruiser being struck by a torpedo launched from a Swordfish from HMS Victorious. Crippled, she was finished off by the battleship Ramillies and the light cruisers Birmingham, Edinburgh, Aurora and Kenya on the 26th of May 1941.

Bismarck was to fight another engagement with HMS Prince of Wales, but only one of brief duration. Each ship gained one hit on the other, with the German ship using the sea mist and fog, as well as a low scudding clouds, so slip past the British ships and return to Norway, reaching Bergen just after midnight on the 27th of May.

She left on the 1st June to return to Germany, escorted by three torpedo boats. Hit by two torpedoes from HMS Seawolf, she was to limp into Kiel on the 5th by way of Copenhagen. She was eventually repaired by DSM in Bremen from July 1941 to January 1942, the length of time extended by damage from an RAF raid in September 1941. She completed around the same time as the previously suspended heavy cruiser Seydlitz, the success of Bismarck against Hood igniting more enthusiasm in surface warships, despite the loss of Prinz Eugen.

HM Ships Prince of Wales, Norfolk and Suffolk are still shadowing Bismarck and Jack Tovey is now taking the Home Fleet into the Iceland/Faroes gap. Churchill was monomaniacal about revenging Hood. Meanwhile, Luftwaffe air cover is even further away.

Err, my bad and I forgot that Bismarck was still around ITTL.

That said, just how are Prince of Wales and the two cruisers supposed to maintain contact with Bismarck? In OTL IIRC they eventually lost her and she had to be reported by a PBY. If Bismarck headed back to Norway shortly after sinking Hood, they aren't going to catch her. The only reason they did eventually sink her is that lucky torpedo from a carrier based Swordfish hit that damaged her steering.

As for air cover, if the air cover is based in Norway and the ship is heading back to Norway, how is it getting farther from air cover?

 

[Navigator]

Err, my bad and I forgot that Bismarck was still around ITTL.

That said, just how are Prince of Wales and the two cruisers supposed to maintain contact with Bismarck? In OTL IIRC they eventually lost her and she had to be reported by a PBY. If Bismarck headed back to Norway shortly after sinking Hood, they aren't going to catch her. The only reason they did eventually sink her is that lucky torpedo from a carrier based Swordfish hit that damaged her steering.

As for air cover, if the air cover is based in Norway and the ship is heading back to Norway, how is it getting farther from air cover?

HMS Suffolk tracked Bismarck by radar for at least six hours after the OTL engagement, which took place towards the southern end of the Denmark Strait. Contact was only lost when Lütjens ordered an anti-submarine zigzag and, after two hours, a 360° loop away at the end of the leg which took them furthest from Suffolk.

If, in TTL, Lütjens is dead and Lindemann has turned back to engage the RN ships and then head north-east, it wouldn’t take Wake-Walker an eternity to deduce the Germans' likely intent. The cruisers are faster, HMS Prince of Wales about the same speed.

Bismarck isn't getting further  from air cover, but the cover it seeks is further away.

 

[Ramontxo]

HMS Suffolk tracked Bismarck by radar for at least six hours after the OTL engagement, which took place towards the southern end of the Denmark Strait. Contact was only lost when Lütjens ordered an anti-submarine zigzag and, after two hours, a 360° loop away at the end of the leg which took them furthest from Suffolk.

If, in TTL, Lütjens is dead and Lindemann has turned back to engage the RN ships and then head north-east, it wouldn’t take Wake-Walker an eternity to deduce the Germans' likely intent. The cruisers are faster, HMS Prince of Wales about the same speed.

Bismarck isn't getting further  from air cover, but the cover it seeks is further away.

Battle damage discounted Bismark was a thirty knots fast ship that only give thirty knots (supposedly) in its trials. The Prince of Wales just out in its first voyage (still fitting with civilian workers aboard so a very clean hull) was a 28 knots ship that managed to keep doing 29 knots for 24 hours. Standard displacement of 38 k against 42 for the Bismark. 10 14 inch guns agais 8 15 and a far better protection.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Battle damage discounted Bismark was a thirty knots fast ship that only give thirty knots (supposedly) in its trials. The Prince of Wales just out in its first voyage (still fitting with civilian workers aboard so a very clean hull) was a 28 knots ship that managed to keep doing 29 knots for 24 hours. Standard displacement of 38 k against 42 for the Bismark. 10 14 inch guns agais 8 15 and a far better protection.

when put like that, there's good cause for Bismark to get out early. Anything - hits, low fuel,, wear on engines, bad weather - that slows it down increases the chance of being caught by yet more ships or yet more swordfish. It would have to cause substantial damage to the pursuers to justify its loss, so the better call is to head off early so it can continue to tie up RN assets just by its existence.

 

[Trevayne]

HMS Suffolk tracked Bismarck by radar for at least six hours after the OTL engagement, which took place towards the southern end of the Denmark Strait. Contact was only lost when Lütjens ordered an anti-submarine zigzag and, after two hours, a 360° loop away at the end of the leg which took them furthest from Suffolk.

If, in TTL, Lütjens is dead and Lindemann has turned back to engage the RN ships and then head north-east, it wouldn’t take Wake-Walker an eternity to deduce the Germans' likely intent. The cruisers are faster, HMS Prince of Wales about the same speed.

Bismarck isn't getting further  from air cover, but the cover it seeks is further away.

Yes, but if they detach Prinz Eugen, wouldn't it be more important to keep contact with the ship headed further out into the Atlantic?

Battle damage discounted Bismark was a thirty knots fast ship that only give thirty knots (supposedly) in its trials. The Prince of Wales just out in its first voyage (still fitting with civilian workers aboard so a very clean hull) was a 28 knots ship that managed to keep doing 29 knots for 24 hours. Standard displacement of 38 k against 42 for the Bismark. 10 14 inch guns agais 8 15 and a far better protection.

How well were those 10 x 14" guns working again? IIRC by the end of the Battle of the Denmark Straits Prince of Wales had only five functional guns, although they managed to get four more working within 6 hours. Later that day , the Prince of Wales tried engaging Bismarck at 30,000 yards but all 12 salvos missed and later that night at 20,000 yards using radar with one potential hit and another jammed turret.

Given the lack of workup, Prince of Wales did well, but she needed that working up period. For that matter, assuming Prince of Wales keeps up with Bismarck, what was her fuel situation? I know at 28-29 knots she is going to be burning a lot.

Again, this is all 20/20 hindsight. Unless we can identify factors that would make it impossible for Bismarck to escape and get back to Norway, it is not an unreasonable POD for the ship to have done so. We can argue how unlikely it would be, but I am more interested in the upcoming battle.

 

[Ramontxo]

It was a ship being fitted with shipyard workmen aboard. In the North Cape Battle in the polar seas suffering a force 8 gale the Duke of York got a 70% of possibles rounds fired for an long and protracted action. That surely must mean reliability