Plausibility Check: Stalin's Human-Ape Hybrid Army

Krall

Banned
NapoleonXIV said:
Apes are rather gentle creatures in the wild. What if you got a hybrid but it didn't want to fight?
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Well, a Bonobo-Human would rape the enemy, considering that Bonobos have sex all the time with everyone.

Chimpanzee-Humans would go ape, pun completely intended, as long as they saw the enemy as a threat to its social position and its females, however, they may also see their own army as a threat, so, that's probably not such a good idea.
 

HurganPL

Banned
I believe Chimps have even been known to commit what we would describe as murder.
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Chimps have attacked and raped humans (and that includes males), combined with skining them afterwards.
They are extremely violent.
An example of those African beasts behaviour towards Homo Sapiens:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7087194/
On Friday, authorities continued to investigate how two chimps at an animal sanctuary escaped from their cage and mauled St. James Davis, 62.
Davis and his wife, LaDonna Davis, 64, were visiting the sanctuary to celebrate the birthday of a 39-year-old chimpanzee, Moe, who was taken from their home in 1999 after biting off part of a woman’s finger.(...)The couple had brought Moe a cake and were standing outside his cage when the two young male chimps, Ollie and Buddy, attacked the man.
(...)The chimps chewed off most of Davis’ face, tore off his foot and attacked his limbs and genitals.
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Tocomocho

Chimps are quite violent yes, I believe Chimps have even been known to commit what we would describe as murder.
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Indeed. the most clear example is the behaviour of the female Chimp Passion and her daughter Pom in the Gombe reservation around 1974. They collaborated into tricking females of their own group and stealing their babies. Then, they killed the babies and ate them. That always happened in their own group, so any adaptative explanation about eliminating competence is out of place. From my point of view the couple's behaviour should be regarded as psichotic, plain and simple.

Back to the ape army, it's important to note that the words "war" and "nation" aren't rare to the chimpanzees. "Sane" male chimps use to patrol the borders of the group's territory in packs, killing every foreign male that they see in their dominions. Sometimes the killing isn't fast, but after a disgusting type of torture involving the foreigner's genitalia that I will not describe. Goodall documented as well incursions in foreign territory against smaller or weaker chimp groups that resulted in the assassination of every male on the rival group and the abduction of the females as lowest-rank females of the new group, roughly like the sex slaves that were part of the spoils of war in Ancient times. I don't know what happened to the youngters in these "campaigns" but I can imagine a strong possibility knowing that most ape/monkey takeover uses to kill every infant in the group in order to accelerate the reproductive cicle of the females.

The last question is that if the human-animal hybrid could see the difference between "friends" and "enemies". In that part I think that the "battalions" should need permanent human supervision. However, if the war is restricted to conventional terms with only military personnel involved (not civilian resistance) I'm sure that they could be teached to distinguish between foreign and soviet uniforms. From what I have read chimps have not big problems to associate Police uniforms with authority, and respect them; if the humanzees are smarter than chimpanzees this part would be even easier.

Well, a Bonobo-Human would rape the enemy, considering that Bonobos have sex all the time with everyone.
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But not non-consensual sex. That is the most intriguing aspect of the Pan genus: while chimps seem to be excesively violent for our tastes, bonobos are almost peace loving hippies who always make love instead of war.

Uh. WAS there artifical insemination back then?
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There are some evidences that the daughter of Juan IV of Castile was conceived by artificial insemination... in the 15th Century (!).
 
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Jesse

Hapsburg said:
As cool as it sounds, it would be impossible. Different species can only interbreed up to the genus level of the taxonomic scale. The only reason Lions and Tigers can interbreed is because they are both from the genus Panthera. To do this with a human and some kind of earlier ape, you'd have to have a Homo sapiens sapiens breed with, say, some surviving specimen of Homo habilis or Homo erectus, assuming one existed in the first place. That would be the absolute closest you could get to a "Human-Ape Hybrid". Even though chimps, our closest living relative among other Great Apes, are 98% identical to us in terms of genes, it's those 2% that prevent us from breeding.

Stalin and the Lysenkoist soviet oligarchy did not, of course, recognize this at the time, as it was not a well-known fact. Which is why he attempted the project in the first place, and yes he did try it. It failed and never would have worked unless you radically changed the basic working of genes in the breeding and mating process, in which case you'd have to push the POD back to an ultra-far point which would in this case butterfly away just about 2.8 billion years of Earth's natural history.
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There isn't really much scientific basis for genus classifications, it's basically a matter of convention, and isn't a good guide to genetic similarity. If Linneas were creating his system today he might well put humans and chimps in the same genus. And there are examples of animals that have a different genus but can interbreed--take the wholphin, a hybrid between the Atlantic bottlenose dolphin (Tursiops truncatus) and the "false killer whale" (Pseudorca crassidens).
 

Jesse

Vault-Scope said:
Genetical difference is 0.6%, isn`t it? There can be more genetic variation between two humans and a human and a chimpanze.
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No, see this post from 3quarksdaily:
Individual human genomes vary by about 0.08% at the single-nucleotide level, whereas human and chimpanzee genomes differ by about 1-1.5% at the same level. This is misleading, though, because single-nucleotide comparison means aligning comparable sequences base-by-base and counting the differences. In order to line up the two sequences in the first place, however, you have to introduce gaps into each sequence to allow for insertions and deletions. Like this:

actgccggctaac-----gtaccTgtcaactggcatgcatgcaagtacc
actgccggcGaacggtccgtacccgtcaac--gcatgAatgcaagtacc

In this made-up example, three bases out of fifty are different (6%) but the gaps account for a further 7 bases' worth of difference (14%). Do this with enough regions of each genome to get a representative sample and you can estimate the degree of sequence identity between the two genomes. Of the optimally-aligned sections of our genomes, we share about 98.5-99% with chimps, but taking the gaps into account produces a rather lower figure of about 95%, something Roy Britten showed in 2002.

What both figures overlook, and tend to obscure, is differences in the organization of large sections of the genetic information: duplications, inversions, recombinations between and within chromosomes, insertions of retroviral sequences, species-specific genes and so on.
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The post goes on to talk about new methods of studying these differences in organization.
 

M79

CalBear said:
Medically? Not a chance in the world. Completely different species, different gentics well beyond any possible "crossbreeding".
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Actually I think it could be done with 1970s tech. It would not surprise me if the US/USSR/China/etc. had dabbled in something like this or if it continues to do so.
 

ColeMercury

Krall said:
Well, a Bonobo-Human would rape the enemy, considering that Bonobos have sex all the time with everyone.
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Actually, the Bonobo-Human army wouldn't fight at all - firstly because they're too peaceful and secondly because they would be too busy having sex with each other.
 
Hapsburg

Hapsburg

Banned
Hypothetically speaking:

Bonobo-men would just start having sex with each other and anyone/thing that would let them, probably up to and including the lebensborn-program's "volunteer" mothers.

Gorilla-men would sit in the Black Forest, eating leaves and bothering no-one, unless someone tried to annoy them. Then, they'd get their dick snapper off like a piece of celery.

Chimp-men would literally be going apeshit, running in and tearing off Gerries' wangs, raping and pillaging anything they saw, eating babies, and making quite a ruckus. Basically, acting like bronze-age barbarians, squared. :D
 

Tocomocho

HueyLong said:
Source on this?
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First time I read about that was in a number of the Spanish magazine Muy Interesante. If you search "Henry IV of Castile" and "artificial insemination" on Google you can find some little information.

The experiments were made by some Jewish doctor known as "Maestre Samaya". He borrowed the technique from Jewish cattle owners, using a golden tube to take the King' sperma and put it on the Queen. The German doctor Hyeronimus Münzer had examined the King before and claimed that he was unable to achieve erection but his sperma was apparently normal.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
Hapsburg said:
Hypothetically speaking:

Bonobo-men would just start having sex with each other and anyone/thing that would let them, probably up to and including the lebensborn-program's "volunteer" mothers.

Gorilla-men would sit in the Black Forest, eating leaves and bothering no-one, unless someone tried to annoy them. Then, they'd get their dick snapper off like a piece of celery.

Chimp-men would literally be going apeshit, running in and tearing off Gerries' wangs, raping and pillaging anything they saw, eating babies, and making quite a ruckus. Basically, acting like bronze-age barbarians, squared. :D
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What would orangutan-men do?:confused:
 

zoomar

Why has no one raised the probability that IF this could be done (which it couldn't), the resulting "soldiers" might not have the manual dexterity to operate weapons effectively, be incapable of communicating efficiently with their Russian masters, and be prone to unexpected and unpredictable behavior at the most inappropriate times. Adult chimpanzees cannot really be trained or trusted, creatures even more intelligent than them, but with the same strength, might be as much of a problem for the Russians as the Germans
 

Superdude

Banned
Who needs weapons when you could just throw them at the enemy in massive wave attacks?

The fear factor should not be denied. I mean, wouldn't YOU be scared witless if a hundred shrieking 7 foot tall Ape-Men came running out the brush?

Plus, these guys would be great in city fighting.

And yes, it should be in ASB.
 

Haggis

The scary fact is just how many orders of magnitude stronger than us an orangutan or chimp is. Now if they were much larger and a little bit smarter then I'd just give up then and there.
 

joemac

Haggis said:
The scary fact is just how many orders of magnitude stronger than us an orangutan or chimp is. Now if they were much larger and a little bit smarter then I'd just give up then and there.
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yes but they would probably have similar mental capacities to a 10 year old making them psychos but too easily ambushed they would only be any good as cannon fodder
 

Max Sinister

Banned
It would be difficult to rise them. You need many trainers for them since you can't rely on parents to care for them, and you still have to rise them for several years. Not sure that it'd be cheaper than a standard army.
 
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