Plausibility Check-Llamas introduced to Mesoamerica

[twovultures]

What would happen next?

Llama pastoralism probably spreads over the Mexican altiplano, which is well suited for llamas and marginal for agriculture. It certainly spreads as far north as the Pueblo peoples of the American Southwest, where people had trading relations deep into Mesoamerica and IOTL proved quite adept at adopting sheep pastoralism from Europeans. How fast this happens, I don't know. At least one paper I read has estimated that the maximum 'front speed' of the adoption of pastoralism in southern Africa was 3.3 km/year (Fort, Joaqim. Biased dispersal can explain fast human range expansions. Nature, June 3rd, 2020). I suppose it could conceivably spread even faster, as Native Americans as far as Canada had adopted horses within 250 years of Cortes' invasion of Mexico, but that was adding a domestic animal to an existing hunter-gatherer-farmer lifestyle, not changing one's lifestyle from hunting animals to raising stock, which is a much more drastic change.

The form llama pastoralism takes is not like the Old World, with nomadic pastoralists driving herds across the Serengeti or the Steppe. IOTL, llama pastoralist communities in the Andes seem to have been part of larger agriculturalist communities, instead of independent. IMO, it's because llamas don't produce enough milk to spare for human consumption, so pastoralists are denied renewable, storable calories in the form of dairy. So, llama pastoralism will be agropastoralism among the Pueblo, and maybe gatherer-pastoralism among other peoples in the mountain west absent other changes (it seems likely that potatoes come with llamas, and that might tip the balance in favor of agriculture over hunting and gathering in the region, but that's another thread).

 

[chornedsnorkack]

The form llama pastoralism takes is not like the Old World, with nomadic pastoralists driving herds across the Serengeti or the Steppe. IOTL, llama pastoralist communities in the Andes seem to have been part of larger agriculturalist communities, instead of independent. IMO, it's because llamas don't produce enough milk to spare for human consumption, so pastoralists are denied renewable, storable calories in the form of dairy.

Also a llama is not as big a piece of meat when slaughtered as a cow, but still bigger than a turkey or a guinea swine.
What would have happened if guinea swine had been introduced to Mexico? Turkey to Peru? (Neither are grazers).

So, llama pastoralism will be agropastoralism among the Pueblo, and maybe gatherer-pastoralism among other peoples in the mountain west absent other changes (it seems likely that potatoes come with llamas, and that might tip the balance in favor of agriculture over hunting and gathering in the region, but that's another thread).

Potato seems to be more demanding of moisture and cool climate and less suited to midlatitude semiarid areas?

 

[twovultures]

Also a llama is not as big a piece of meat when slaughtered as a cow, but still bigger than a turkey or a guinea swine.
What would have happened if guinea swine had been introduced to Mexico? Turkey to Peru? (Neither are grazers).

Potato seems to be more demanding of moisture and cool climate and less suited to midlatitude semiarid areas?

I think turkeys would have done fine in Peru, at least from the coast to the mid-slope of the Andes, and guinea pigs would have done fine in Mexico. They're not transformative domesticates, but they are very good at converting what would otherwise be agricultural waste into delicious protein for people, so I think they would be very popular. Guinea pigs aren't big, but they're notorious for multiplying quickly, so one pair of guinea pigs could end up producing a lot of protein over a few years. We may see Mesoamericans stop or reduce the practice of fattening dogs for slaughter (presumably done by feeding them a high-carb, mostly vegetarian diet) in favor of using those resources to feed guinea pigs instead.

For potatoes, I'd have to double check (I recall reading some studies where they use less water than maize, albeit not a lot less, but I may have misremembered). You're right that they wouldn't do so well in arid areas, but Pueblo farmers were experts at using microclimates and I think they would use potatoes as backup crops, especially as the Little Ice Age hurt maize yields. This thread has some more information.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

First, we need to take a look at our furry little subject, the llama. She's quite a tough fellow, carrying packs across the Andes mountains at high altitudes and freezing temperatures, but she has a couple sensitivities. She doesn't like heat, and she doesn't like humidity. She can take one or the other, but both combined are very bad for her. American llama farmers use a rule of thumb-if the temperature in Fahrenheit and the % of humidity in the air is above 150, llamas are at 'high' risk of heat stress. If both combined are above 180, llamas are at 'extreme' risk of heat stress and in imminent peril of death. Solutions include providing shade, shearing all but 1-3 inches of their fiber off, wetting and then drying them, and providing them electric fans (available to modern farmers but not, presumably, prehistoric Native Americans)[1].

Electric fans were not available, that is. Taking care to shear a domestic llama in spring, and before sending it to a voyage across tropical lowland or sea, would have been available to prehistoric herders looking to push the wild range limits... which are already generous.
The guanaco.
Whose natural northern limit extends to Gran Chaco. Of Paraguay. Pretty tropical. Without active human help.

[1]Baum, Karen and Evans, Norman. Llama Medical Management. International Llama Association Educational Brochure #4.

 

[Quinkana]

I think one option that you guys haven’t talked about is a conquerer changing things and forcing different peoples and technologies to interact with each other. Maybe we have sea people equivalents raid from coastal Ecuador after the Andean civilisation collapsed and better boat technology is developed which causes the Peruvians to bring llamas along as part of their agricultural package. Maybe we see a great conqueror from mesoamerica raid Peru and capture slaves from the Andean coast and bringing them and llamas back to Mexico.

The main thing that has to change here would be the development of better seafaring technology. The natives in South America did build boats that would potentially be sea worthy, but they weren’t travelling where they could not see the coast. Perhaps a development of a star map reminiscent of the Polynesians would help them navigate the seas and push for further development of sails and the such, boosting the trade (and if needed pirates or armies) between mesoamerica and the Andeans.

Also with greater contact I wonder would we see Guinea pigs be used as an alternate source of meat in mesoamerica, with turkey and moscovy ducks moving to South America. Andean metallurgy would spread in mesoameica too, while the writing systems of mesoamerica would spread back to the Andes. I think it would be something that both civilisations would benefit from immensely.

Also, if the introduction of llama is early enough I can see bison and plains animals be domesticated by hunter gardeners, and maaaaybe pronghorn and native sheep if llama herders settle down around salt lake and fence the animals up (especially pronghorn. They really can’t jump the fences, so they could easily be herded into a pen). Hell, I see llamas be the inspiration for elk domestication too. I’m not saying that this will happen, but you can have a slew of other domesticates come out from the introduction of llama. And that’s not accounting for other microdomesticates if we get sedentary societies in the rockies.

 

[twovultures]

I think one option that you guys haven’t talked about is a conquerer changing things and forcing different peoples and technologies to interact with each other. Maybe we have sea people equivalents raid from coastal Ecuador after the Andean civilisation collapsed and better boat technology is developed which causes the Peruvians to bring llamas along as part of their agricultural package. Maybe we see a great conqueror from mesoamerica raid Peru and capture slaves from the Andean coast and bringing them and llamas back to Mexico.

The main thing that has to change here would be the development of better seafaring technology. The natives in South America did build boats that would potentially be sea worthy, but they weren’t travelling where they could not see the coast. Perhaps a development of a star map reminiscent of the Polynesians would help them navigate the seas and push for further development of sails and the such, boosting the trade (and if needed pirates or armies) between mesoamerica and the Andeans.

Also with greater contact I wonder would we see Guinea pigs be used as an alternate source of meat in mesoamerica, with turkey and moscovy ducks moving to South America. Andean metallurgy would spread in mesoameica too, while the writing systems of mesoamerica would spread back to the Andes. I think it would be something that both civilisations would benefit from immensely.

Also, if the introduction of llama is early enough I can see bison and plains animals be domesticated by hunter gardeners, and maaaaybe pronghorn and native sheep if llama herders settle down around salt lake and fence the animals up (especially pronghorn. They really can’t jump the fences, so they could easily be herded into a pen). Hell, I see llamas be the inspiration for elk domestication too. I’m not saying that this wil happen, but you can have a slew of other domesticates come out from the introduction of llama. And that’s not accounting for other microdomesticates if we get sedentary societies in the rookies.

A conqueror is a really cool idea, but the logistics-even if we have more advanced metallurgy and shipbuilding ITTL-is very difficult. A Mesoamerican conqueror who has access to the Mexican highlands were llamas would be able to thrive is liable to not be very interested in taking to sea, while a coastal-based conqueror with the fleet to organize viking raids may not have the resources to go inland. It's still within the realm of plausibility, though!

The idea of alternate domesticates being inspired by the presence of llamas is interesting. Though if the domestication of livestock like the camel and the reindeer in Eurasia is anything to go by, the presence of llamas will be the start of a millenia-long process of domestication, rather than a 'big bang' that sees the domestication model applied to everything. The pronghorn domestication is interesting-I recently watched a documentary that said that they're very predictable, always taking the same migration route. I think humans in an ATL could exploit that behavior in a way that leads to domestication.

 

[DG Valdron]

Why would anyone send exotic gift llamas? Do farmers send exotic gift chickens to the city?

It seems to me that Andean traders making contact with mesoamerica would have no interest whatsoever in shipping Llamas.

They're a shitty trade good - among other things, they shit. They need to be fed. Need to be watered. They're lousy sailors, unless you have them completely tied up everywhere. They wouldn't even think about it. They'd focus on lightweight or limited weight portable trade goods, with highest possible value per weight and volume.

A local animal, like a Llama is not exotic to Andeans. It's common as dirt, and goddammed annoying.

What you would need is Meso-American traders or Ambassadors coming down to the Andes, poking around and wanting to bring some back with them.

 

[twovultures]

Why would anyone send exotic gift llamas? Do farmers send exotic gift chickens to the city?

It seems to me that Andean traders making contact with mesoamerica would have no interest whatsoever in shipping Llamas.

They're a shitty trade good - among other things, they shit. They need to be fed. Need to be watered. They're lousy sailors, unless you have them completely tied up everywhere. They wouldn't even think about it. They'd focus on lightweight or limited weight portable trade goods, with highest possible value per weight and volume.

A local animal, like a Llama is not exotic to Andeans. It's common as dirt, and goddammed annoying.

What you would need is Meso-American traders or Ambassadors coming down to the Andes, poking around and wanting to bring some back with them.

That does jive with other suggestions in the thread. I will say that while llamas as a species are common in Peru at this time, there is the possibility of certain breeds being considered rare and valuable. Pre-Columbian llamas had a greater variety of breeds, some with well-developed wool coats (though these would probably be more of a pain to ship than plain llamas). And just as we saw in the Old World with sacrificial animals, certain color schemes could be seen as sacred and reserved for sacrifice, with special herds owned by the elite to specifically breed said colors. The transfer of such animals to Mesoamerica would have to be a diplomatic gift between potentates though, as these herds would definitely not be available for commerce!

There is a third possibility-Peruvian merchants see llamas as dirt cheap, and also see them as a cheap way to run a scam on the Mesoamerican elite. "Hey Mr. Aztec emperor, I see you have an ocelot and a bison in your menagerie. Pish posh, I say-might as well as have a zoo dedicated to pet dogs! Oh, but THIS creature I have, the fantabulous long-necked hornless deer, now THIS creature with its magic healing powers would be worthy of addition in your zoo! And for the low low price..."

 

[Quinkana]

A conqueror is a really cool idea, but the logistics-even if we have more advanced metallurgy and shipbuilding ITTL-is very difficult. A Mesoamerican conqueror who has access to the Mexican highlands were llamas would be able to thrive is liable to not be very interested in taking to sea, while a coastal-based conqueror with the fleet to organize viking raids may not have the resources to go inland. It's still within the realm of plausibility, though!

Tbf I was thinking more a migration of sea peoples that set up elite families more than anything, as it being caused by migration patterns feels less arbitrary. But yeah I think it may still work if explained properly.

The idea of alternate domesticates being inspired by the presence of llamas is interesting. Though if the domestication of livestock like the camel and the reindeer in Eurasia is anything to go by, the presence of llamas will be the start of a millenia-long process of domestication, rather than a 'big bang' that sees the domestication model applied to everything. The pronghorn domestication is interesting-I recently watched a documentary that said that they're very predictable, always taking the same migration route. I think humans in an ATL could exploit that behavior in a way that leads to domestication.

Yeah it's more me throwing out a bunch of potential domesticates than anything, as I don't think they'd have the time and luck (you kinda do need a guy with the idea and to think through how to do it) to domesticate these anjmals.

That being said, I think pronghorn is a really cool domesticate bc the wild forms already have some characteristics that would allow domestication as you've said. I could imagine them starting the domestication process by tracking a familiar herd, chasing them into pens with llama travois/chariots and dogs, and slaughtering some pronghorn, then some ppl recognise a few pronghorn. As some get injured the ppl keep them in the pens and feed them during bad times, and the pronghorn become more and more tame with humans until they become domesticated as they stop being migratory and show neotenic features.

A local animal, like a Llama is not exotic to Andeans. It's common as dirt, and goddammed annoying.

What you would need is Meso-American traders or Ambassadors coming down to the Andes, poking around and wanting to bring some back with them.

I agree, and vanity projects don't usually establish viable populations either.

I think a sea peoples esque migration that causes people to move themselves and their associated animals around would make more sense, since there'd be enough volume and the people would also want to move animals they normally use to their new homes. Or the new elites wanting a taste of home and tasking their subordinates to trade with the Andes so they could get animals and plants to Mexico for cultivation.

 

[DG Valdron]

I give credit, but Llamas go pretty directly against every premise you'd want for a trade good, and exotic pets for elites don't really fly. If that was the case, Europe would be overrun with Lions, Ostriches, Tigers, Leopards, etc.

Assuming that Llama wool is actually desirable, it would be potential trade good. It's lightweight, portable, compact or easy to compact. It doesn't shit, need to be fed, need to be watered or struggle and try and wander around the ship, doesn't sicken or die. You just get a bale, stick it someplace and voila, it ships easily.

Now assuming the Llama wool, the unprocessed compact stuff becomes huge in MesoAmerica, you get the equivalent of a silk road trade starting up, and the MesoAmericans, or various groups are going to start being very interested in getting their hands on live specimens, and putting a certain amount of effort and bribery into obtaining them, and figuring out how to keep them from dying.

On a larger sense, you need to really focus on building up your trade network. You probably want at least ten times the existing volume of goods moving back and forth, to the point that it is commonplace, casual, the skills are widely distributed, there's a range of trade goods, or some really valuable core trade good, and a cadre of people who are good with the languages.

 

[Quinkana]

I give credit, but Llamas go pretty directly against every premise you'd want for a trade good, and exotic pets for elites don't really fly. If that was the case, Europe would be overrun with Lions, Ostriches, Tigers, Leopards, etc.

Yeah I agree with this, there's a reason why exotic pets weren't a problem until relatively recent times: there simply weren't enough volume to make stable populations due to the problems of transport.

On a larger sense, you need to really focus on building up your trade network. You probably want at least ten times the existing volume of goods moving back and forth, to the point that it is commonplace, casual, the skills are widely distributed, there's a range of trade goods, or some really valuable core trade good, and a cadre of people who are good with the languages.

Yep, and I think it'd be best for the sailors of America to start with a star map. Having your directions be mostly accessible to anyone who is part of your culture would be very useful, and allow for developing a tradition for travelling through the deep blue sea.

Ofc they'd need sails too, but I think the main reason why shipbuilding tech remained stagnant in the Americas is that they didn't have a reliable way to travel beyond the coast, as was how European vessels sailed through the Mediterranean before the compass became widespread in Europe. I don't see them inventing the compass as easily, but an oral tradition similar to that of the Polynesians would be an achievable alternative that would allow high levels of commerce to run between mesomerica and the Andes.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Why would anyone send exotic gift llamas? Do farmers send exotic gift chickens to the city?

Because livestock, especially well-bred livestock, were frequently sold as trade goods or offered as gifts and tribute. IIRC this did occur in coastal Ecuador where llamas aren't native.

It seems to me that Andean traders making contact with mesoamerica would have no interest whatsoever in shipping Llamas.

They're a shitty trade good - among other things, they shit. They need to be fed. Need to be watered. They're lousy sailors, unless you have them completely tied up everywhere. They wouldn't even think about it. They'd focus on lightweight or limited weight portable trade goods, with highest possible value per weight and volume.

Why? A merchant was once recorded as having brought a polar bear cub from Greenland back to Norway. Live gyrfalcons were an important good for Greenlanders as well, and also were valued on the other side of the world by the Chinese and Mongols.

A local animal, like a Llama is not exotic to Andeans. It's common as dirt, and goddammed annoying.

That's a benefit, because it's theoretically cheap to acquire, or perhaps not given they aren't native to coastal areas.

Yeah I agree with this, there's a reason why exotic pets weren't a problem until relatively recent times: there simply weren't enough volume to make stable populations due to the problems of transport.

This is more of the problem than anything else.

 

[DG Valdron]

Because livestock, especially well-bred livestock, were frequently sold as trade goods or offered as gifts and tribute. IIRC this did occur in coastal Ecuador where llamas aren't native.

There's a huge gap between moving animals back and forth overland from inland Ecuador to coastal Ecuador, as opposed to a trans-continental sea voyage.

Second, well bred livestock are not pioneer goods. They're sold or exchanged from societies which have them and know what to do with them, to other societies which already have them and know what to do with them. Both societies in the exchange know what they've got and what the intrinsic value is.

It's not the same as introducing a new, relatively alien animal to a society or economy, which has no idea what to do with it, what priority to attribute to it, or a how to apply it.

By way of example, the Chinese Treasure Fleet shipped a giraffe all the way from Africa to China. This did not lead to a transplanted population of domesticated or feral giraffe's wandering all over China.

In fact, when you look at it, there's only a relatively small group of domesticates that have travelled between cultures. There are many that haven't travelled.

Humans need a learning curve and there just isn't one here.

Why? A merchant was once recorded as having brought a polar bear cub from Greenland back to Norway.

Greenland was a colony in regular trade contact with its progenitor societies. In fact, Greenland was settled by literal fleets of ships from Iceland (and indirectly Norway), and was entirely dependent on trade and continuing trade and communication for survival. Further, Norse and Norwegian society by that time was well experienced and adapted to shipping large animals, the founding populations of sheep, horses, cattle, goats and pigs had been transplanted by to the Faroes, to Iceland, Greenland, etc. The skills and techniques had grown organically over centuries and in massive volume and were commonplace and well established.

What you're talking about is a one jump - from inventing the wheel to driving a Ferrari. I don't think so. Developing the capacity, the trade volume and the skills and motivation to do so is not a one jump, but a process.

That's a benefit, because it's theoretically cheap to acquire, or perhaps not given they aren't native to coastal areas.

No its not a benefit, for two reasons. First, a relatively low value is not in itself a draw. Rocks are cheap. Mud is cheap. But traders do not load up their caravans with rocks and mud because even though it is cheaply obtained, you can't actually sell it for much or extract much benefit from it.

Second, even if a Llama is relatively cheaply obtained on the Ecuador coast, it becomes expensive to ship, in terms of labour and weight, because you need to feed the beast, which means you need provisions for it, you need to carry extra water for it, and in the meantime, it shits, pisses, makes noise and unless it's tethered constantly, will move about and cause trouble.

 

[Quinkana]

This is more of the problem than anything else.

In fact, when you look at it, there's only a relatively small group of domesticates that have travelled between cultures. There are many that haven't travelled.

Humans need a learning curve and there just isn't one here.

Which is why I think a sea peoples type migration of Peruvian peoples into Mesoamerica, then a movement of trading animals like llamas would make more sense. The new migrants would know the uses of llamas and could use llamas as a status symbol of the 'in group' opposed to the other Mesoamericans in the early days, with the development of the sail and associated navigational techniques being the first things they have to develop before anything else could happen.

 

[DG Valdron]

Which is why I think a sea peoples type migration of Peruvian peoples into Mesoamerica, then a movement of trading animals like llamas would make more sense. The new migrants would know the uses of llamas and could use llamas as a status symbol of the 'in group' opposed to the other Mesoamericans in the early days, with the development of the sail and associated navigational techniques being the first things they have to develop before anything else could happen.

Makes sense.

 

[Silver01]

I think one option that you guys haven’t talked about is a conquerer changing things and forcing different peoples and technologies to interact with each other. Maybe we have sea people equivalents raid from coastal Ecuador after the Andean civilisation collapsed and better boat technology is developed which causes the Peruvians to bring llamas along as part of their agricultural package. Maybe we see a great conqueror from mesoamerica raid Peru and capture slaves from the Andean coast and bringing them and llamas back to Mexico.

I mean by the time the spanish showed up the aztecs were on their way to conquer Qʼumarkaj expanding deep into guatemala also pirates existed its just that movement from mexico to peru is long one still plausible as we know merchants did it but if you wanted to raid there was a lot places closer to home

The main thing that has to change here would be the development of better seafaring technology. The natives in South America did build boats that would potentially be sea worthy, but they weren’t travelling where they could not see the coast. Perhaps a development of a star map reminiscent of the Polynesians would help them navigate the seas and push for further development of sails and the such, boosting the trade (and if needed pirates or armies) between mesoamerica and the Andeans.

If some sources are to be belived tupac inca yupanqui manged to sail out to easter island and if you take the most extreme version to french polynesia either way it shows vessels had no problem with that also i dont know much maratime terminology but is 200 miles of the coast considered hugging it?

Why would anyone send exotic gift llamas? Do farmers send exotic gift chickens to the city?

Pizarro showed a llama to emperor charles to try to impress him for a people who have never seen the animal in their life it does have a novelty.

Which is why I think a sea peoples type migration of Peruvian peoples into Mesoamerica, then a movement of trading animals like llamas would make more sense. The new migrants would know the uses of llamas and could use llamas as a status symbol of the 'in group' opposed to the other Mesoamericans in the early days, with the development of the sail and associated navigational techniques being the first things they have to develop before anything else could happen.

if some sources are to be belived it already occured the main theory as to why the Purépecha Empire had metal working was due to south american traders but there is also the story that Purépecha came from south america even no its like.y.

 

[DG Valdron]

Pizarro showed a llama to emperor charles to try to impress him for a people who have never seen the animal in their life it does have a novelty.

And this is why Llamas roam the French countryside today.

The definition of novelties is that they're novelties.

 

[Silver01]

And this is why Llamas roam the French countryside today.

The definition of novelties is that they're novelties.

when you can have wool by sheep, have meat via the other many options, and have better carry animal in mules why do you really a llama for? this does not apply to mexico. in fact if anything i see llama or alpaca textiles becoming the new world silk in that case i dont see why some people of mexico would not steal a few it like justinian did with the silk worms.

 

[DG Valdron]

when you can have wool by sheep, have meat via the other many options, and have better carry animal in mules why do you really a llama for? this does not apply to mexico. in fact if anything i see llama or alpaca textiles becoming the new world silk in that case i dont see why some people of mexico would not steal a few it like justinian did with the silk worms.

Well, the ruling class already has better pack animals in the form of slaves and subjects. They can carry almost as much weight and you can tell them what to do. So as far as elites are concerned, they just don't care.

That's the way it is. We have this idea that Elites and the ruling social orders have some benign commitment to society, rather than their own narcissism, so if they come across a great labour saving device for poor people, they'll endorse it and invest in it. That's not even how our own contemporary elites think.

Rather than oppose it as a form of unknown and unwanted social change that will encourage laziness and thinking in the lower classes.

Have you ever eaten Llama? It's not that appetizing I'm told by a Llama farmer I know.

And before people start importing Llama for wool, you first need to create a huge thriving demand for llama wool, such that it is being shipped in large quantities on a commercial level. The Silk Road and the extreme value of Silk to the Greeks, Romans and Byzantines was a well established thing long before Justinian.

 

[DG Valdron]

Look, I'm sorry if I'm shooting you guys down. But I just think we need to work hard to make the case going on real, plausible human behaviour.

I'm very sympathetic, I'm positive.

I'm just not easy.