Optimize the RAF/FAA for WW2

[marathag]

Fieseler 167 First flight 12 Nov 1937 - operational in a non operational evaluation squadron in 1940

Swordfish first flight 17 April 1934 - introduced into Squadron service in July 1936 with 825 NAS

So 3.5 years difference during a period of rapid development and they had only made 2 prototypes and 12 non serial preproduction aircraft by 1940 compared to many String bags.

If you want to compare it with anything then I would pick the Albacore - which was flying roughly the same time first flight 12 December 1938 and operational in March1940 with 826 NAS and 98 serial aircraft were made in 1940

The Apple cores performance is not significantly different to the Fieseler in most respects

Years of introduction
1933
Blackburn Shark MkII 152 mph top speed 62 mph landing speed, 489sq.ft wing area and 4011 pounds of payload, 171 gallon tank. optional 150 gallon tank. Cruising speed 118 mph
1934
Fairey Swordfish 138 mph top speed, 104mph cruising speed, 46mph landing speed 607sq.ft and 4000 pound payload 201 gallon tank, optional 82 gallon tank in observers place
1935
Devastator had a 206mph top speed, 128mph cruising speed, 63 mph landing speed, 422sq.ft area and 4594 pounds of payload, 207 gallon tank.
1937
B5N Kate had a 235mph top speed, 159mph cruising speed, 72 mph landing speed, 406sq.ft area and 4016 pounds of payload, 255 gallon tank 1937
1938
Fieseler Fi 167 had a 198 mph top speed, 155mph cruising speed, 59 mph landing speed, 490sq.ft area and 3859 pounds of payload, 286 gallons with external 66 gallon drop tank.
1939 (well December 12th, 1938)
Fairey Albacore had a 161 mph top speed, 116mpg cruising speed 59? mph landing speed, 623sq.ft area and 5350 pounds of payload, 240 gallon tank in center Fuselage.
So you see, that was a pretty good effort by the Germans, having Zero Carrier experience to draw on

There just shouldn't have been any Swordfish made after 1938. There was no real excuse for an open cockpit A/C should have been in front line combat use at this time.

Albacore was started too late, took too long to develop. It should have been a 1936 effort: just keep flying the Shark, improved in 1938

Shark Mk III : Two- or three-seat torpedo bomber, reconnaissance aircraft for the Royal Navy. Fitted with a glazed canopy and dual controls for crew training. Powered by an 800 hp (600 kW) Bristol Pegasus III radial piston engine.

Don't produce any Swordfish beyond a few test models. It's just not needed.

There- I said it.

No Stringbags in WWII

 

[marathag]

And the Avenger was almost certainly the best single engine torpedo bomber of the war and definitely in 1942

<cough>
Vought XTBU-1 Seawolf First flight, December 1941

This was what the Avenger dreamed of being

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Years of introduction
1933
Blackburn Shark MkII 152 mph top speed 62 mph landing speed, 489sq.ft wing area and 4011 pounds of payload, 171 gallon tank. optional 150 gallon tank. Cruising speed 118 mph
1934
Fairey Swordfish 138 mph top speed, 104mph cruising speed, 46mph landing speed 607sq.ft and 4000 pound payload 201 gallon tank, optional 82 gallon tank in observers place
1935
Devastator had a 206mph top speed, 128mph cruising speed, 63 mph landing speed, 422sq.ft area and 4594 pounds of payload, 207 gallon tank.
1937
B5N Kate had a 235mph top speed, 159mph cruising speed, 72 mph landing speed, 406sq.ft area and 4016 pounds of payload, 255 gallon tank 1937
1938
Fieseler Fi 167 had a 198 mph top speed, 155mph cruising speed, 59 mph landing speed, 490sq.ft area and 3859 pounds of payload, 286 gallons with external 66 gallon drop tank.
1939 (well December 12th, 1938)
Fairey Albacore had a 161 mph top speed, 116mpg cruising speed 59? mph landing speed, 623sq.ft area and 5350 pounds of payload, 240 gallon tank in center Fuselage.
So you see, that was a pretty good effort by the Germans, having Zero Carrier experience to draw on

There just shouldn't have been any Swordfish made after 1938. There was no real excuse for an open cockpit A/C should have been in front line combat use at this time.

Albacore was started too late, took too long to develop. It should have been a 1936 effort: just keep flying the Shark, improved in 1938

Shark Mk III : Two- or three-seat torpedo bomber, reconnaissance aircraft for the Royal Navy. Fitted with a glazed canopy and dual controls for crew training. Powered by an 800 hp (600 kW) Bristol Pegasus III radial piston engine.

Don't produce any Swordfish beyond a few test models. It's just not needed.

There- I said it.

No Stringbags in WWII

View attachment 818621

So the Fairey Albacore is cancelled while still a paper project and the Swordfish is replaced by the improved Blackburn Shark III in 1938. Meanwhile Fairey work on a Nakajima Kate equivalent to enter service sometime in 1940. Ideally I'd skip the Stringbag altogether and just swap the more advanced Shark I and II's unreliable AS Tiger engines for the reliable Bristol Pegasus.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

<cough>
Vought XTBU-1 Seawolf First flight, December 1941
View attachment 818625
This was what the Avenger dreamed of being

First production aircraft Operational - 20 Aug 1944

And when I say operational - it never saw a combat squadron, the order was cancelled and the aircraft produced were relegated to training duties

Avenger keeps its crown

Next!

 

[marathag]

First production aircraft Operational - 20 Aug 1944

And when I say operational - it never saw a combat squadron, the order was cancelled and the aircraft produced were relegated to training duties

Avenger keeps its crown

Next!

Problem was, Vought didn't have the space for it with all the Corsair orders, so it got passed over to Consolidated to build a new factory. So was way late, as the Martin Mauler and Douglas Skyraider were just around the corner.

But Vought had it flying in late 1941.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Don't produce any Swordfish beyond a few test models. It's just not needed.

There- I said it.

No Stringbags in WWII

View attachment 818621

You edge lord you

So all this talk of replacing Swordfish with better aircraft - totally unproven in one case (Fiesler) and requiring a time machine in all other cases (the inferior shark not withstanding) is all very well and good.

However the technology did exist to potentially make a better aircraft that the RN could have had instead - or in addition to - because lets face it the Shark was operated into 1945!

So in order to do this the Navy or RAF needs to issue the necessary requirement for this improved aircraft which for the Albacore was S.41/36

So this was late 36 /early 37

So for me this is a folding wing, monoplane aircraft capable of operating with a crew of 2

At least a top speed of 250 MPH, range of 1000 NMs with a torpedo, mine carried on centreline or 8 x 250 pound or 4 x 500 pound bombs carried underwing

Armed with 4 x 303 machine guns and a twin vickers K in the rear observers position (initially this was a powered turret but this requirement was later dropped)

Later this requirement is increased to 8 guns to align with the Hurricane and Spitfire and then later changed again as the RAF adopts the larger Browning .50 'MK 3' with explosive ammo in all case with 4 guns per aircraft and for this aircraft which I am calling a Sea Battle 370 RPG

Capable of level bombing, Good dive bombing ability, Torpedo bombing, capable of recce missions and acting as a fleet defence fighter

There is another potential course

Spec P.4/34 - this yielded the Henley but also the aircraft that the Fairey Fulmar was based on - the Fairey P.4/34

The Fairey P.4/34 first flew in Jan 37 - and if developed from here as a multirole fleet aircraft from the get go - should be in serial production by 1940

So this would be instead of the Albacore and Fulmar and provide the RN with a true multi role fighter bomber

The original intent would be to equip RN carriers with a single type but would increasingly be found wanting in the face of the better land based fighters and this single aircraft desire is never fully realised with both Sea Hurricane simple conversion pressed into service as an interim fleet interceptor and the Sea Service Spitfire (rubbish name will have to think on that) a much more radically modified folding wing carrier fighter plane that started development at Vickers from 1938 as a private project entering service in late 1941 (delayed due to the needs of fighter command)

Basically this would be a Fairey Fulmar with the bombing capability of an Albacore.

This would require a better Merlin (at least an XX) but that is another discussion

I wanted Fairey Youngman flaps but they were not invented till 1941!

And I am currently championing an improved and lightened Browning .50 cal AN/M2 type machine gun but utilising an open bolt design as the British never intended to use it with a synchronising system and perhaps most importantly explosive ammunition.

So this could have been had instead of a the Albacore and Fulmar and Roc.....and possibly Skua

But hands off the Swordfish you damned Heretic

 

[CaptainCalvert]

You edge lord you

View attachment 818652



So all this talk of replacing Swordfish with better aircraft - totally unproven in one case (Fiesler) and requiring a time machine in all other cases (the inferior shark not withstanding) is all very well and good.

However the technology did exist to potentially make a better aircraft that the RN could have had instead - or in addition to - because lets face it the Shark was operated into 1945!

So in order to do this the Navy or RAF needs to issue the necessary requirement for this improved aircraft which for the Albacore was S.41/36

So this was late 36 /early 37

So for me this is a folding wing, monoplane aircraft capable of operating with a crew of 2

At least a top speed of 250 MPH, range of 1000 NMs with a torpedo, mine carried on centreline or 8 x 250 pound or 4 x 500 pound bombs carried underwing

Armed with 4 x 303 machine guns and a twin vickers K in the rear observers position (initially this was a powered turret but this requirement was later dropped)

Later this requirement is increased to 8 guns to align with the Hurricane and Spitfire and then later changed again as the RAF adopts the larger Browning .50 'MK 3' with explosive ammo in all case with 4 guns per aircraft and for this aircraft which I am calling a Sea Battle 370 RPG

Capable of level bombing, Good dive bombing ability, Torpedo bombing, capable of recce missions and acting as a fleet defence fighter

There is another potential course

Spec P.4/34 - this yielded the Henley but also the aircraft that the Fairey Fulmar was based on - the Fairey P.4/34

View attachment 818651

The Fairey P.4/34 first flew in Jan 37 - and if developed from here as a multirole fleet aircraft from the get go - should be in serial production by 1940

So this would be instead of the Albacore and Fulmar and provide the RN with a true multi role fighter bomber

The original intent would be to equip RN carriers with a single type but would increasingly be found wanting in the face of the better land based fighters and this single aircraft desire is never fully realised with both Sea Hurricane simple conversion pressed into service as an interim fleet interceptor and the Sea Service Spitfire (rubbish name will have to think on that) a much more radically modified folding wing carrier fighter plane that started development at Vickers from 1938 as a private project entering service in late 1941 (delayed due to the needs of fighter command)

Basically this would be a Fairey Fulmar with the bombing capability of an Albacore.

This would require a better Merlin (at least an XX) but that is another discussion

I wanted Fairey Youngman flaps but they were not invented till 1941!

And I am currently championing an improved and lightened Browning .50 cal AN/M2 type machine gun but utilising an open bolt design as the British never intended to use it with a synchronising system and perhaps most importantly explosive ammunition.

So this could have been had instead of a the Albacore and Fulmar and Roc.....and possibly Skua

But hands off the Swordfish you damned Heretic

I had to go for a lie down after reading about the Sea Battle!
Where can I find a portal to that timeline?

 

[sonofpegasus]

As I suggested in my earlier post.
Instead of ordering the Swordfish as in OTL, this 1934 monoplane design by Fairy is ordered. So the FAA get the Blackburn Shark as it's last biplane torpedo aircraft and simultaneously gets it's first monoplane one. The OTL Albacore now becomes the retractable under carriage/metal fuselage development successor to the above. The Barracuda gets the 2000hp Monarch engine in 1941 and has adequate power to reach it's full potential from the start, rather than being an underpowered liability.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

View attachment 818717
As I suggested in my earlier post.
Instead of ordering the Swordfish as in OTL, this 1934 monoplane design by Fairy is ordered. So the FAA get the Blackburn Shark as it's last biplane torpedo aircraft and simultaneously gets it's first monoplane one. The OTL Albacore now becomes the retractable under carriage/metal fuselage development successor to the above. The Barracuda gets the 2000hp Monarch engine in 1941 and has adequate power to reach it's full potential from the start, rather than being an underpowered liability.

Is that an OTL design?

 

[sonofpegasus]

Yes, a proposal by Fairy Aviation 1934 for a monoplane to the same specification as the Swordfish.
Sorry for the poor quality reproduction of the drawing not sure why that has happened.

 

[sonofpegasus]

Here we go, this is much better.

 

[Astrodragon]

View attachment 818724

Here we go, this is much better.

any specs??

 

[sonofpegasus]

Sorry not that I have every found, I read somewhere (Decades ago) that it would have used the same engine a s the Swordfish and the same basic fuselage construction but that was all. I cannot now recall the source of the drawing either though I thought it was quite well known.

This site https://arnhemjim.blogspot.com/2013/10/david-versus-goliath-fairey-swordfish.html has the drawing with the caption that it was 'Scheme 9 and 10.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I had to go for a lie down after reading about the Sea Battle!
Where can I find a portal to that timeline?

I wrote a 1 pager on the alt aircraft thread where I explored the idea of a Sea Battle and an army cooperation aircraft called the Fairey Blackburn Claymore which is effectively a Swordfish

I am working now but will try and post a link to it later

But a search for the Fairey Blackburn Claymore should find it

Edit Its here

 

[Wolf of Badenoch]

This comes through in his rather novel position against strategic bombing. It is a little unclear where his knowledge ends and your analysis of it begins; i came from lead paint alone.

Perhaps an iconclastic stance against the 'Hendon air display' mindset on fighter tactics might reduce early casualties in 1940?

 

[sonofpegasus]

Apparently the mono plane Swordfish picture was published at some time in; Aeroguide Classics No4 - Fairey Swordfish Mks I-III

 

[alspug]

A monoplane Swordfish would have been interesting in that with more powerful engines and retractable gear it would be able to keep up until 1942 at least.

The single biggest problem as I see it is that the engines did not have the required performance for the speciifcations of what would be ideal.
The Ideal TBR for 1939 onwards would be a monoplane with the most powerful engine available. In this case likely a Merlin but a Bristol radial is also possible.
Maybe have it designed from the start for the Hercules engine. So 1300hp initially and 1600 by mid war.
Bombload of 1800lb max with bomb racks and torpedo racks.
able to level bomb and drop torpedos. Also equipped for ASW depth charges etc. SAP bomb being 1600lb.
Defensive weapons. 2 machine guns in wings and 2 in gunners seat.
Speed. 250mph for first version and 300 for higher hp.

The Fleet Fighter is a big problem. It needs to be long ranged and able to knock down bombers fast. 8 0.303 is inadequate.
No single engine fighter can do the task as laid out in 1939. No engine was powerful enough in 1939.
How about a fighter with contra rotating props in 1939. two engines mounted. One behind pilot and delivering power through a shaft. On in front of pilot.
Wings fairly large but with large control surfaces. Speed 400mph weaponry. 8 0,303 until cannon are available.

Think P39 crossed with a Mustang. gives you a narrow twin engined aircraft.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Fleet Fighter is a big problem. It needs to be long ranged and able to knock down bombers fast. 8 0.303 is inadequate.
No single engine fighter can do the task as laid out in 1939. No engine was powerful enough in 1939.

Merlin III was powerful enough in 1937. Eight .303s are adequate for 1939.
Long range issue can be dealt easily via usage of drop tanks - that has no bearing on engines available. Merlin III have had 10 % more power than the Sakae 12 (and 40% more with 100 octane fuel), and on higher altitude, yet Japanese made the Zero a long ranged fighter around the Sakae never the less.

FAA's problem was that it took them eternity to specify a 1-seat fighter.

 

[Asian Jumbo]

<cough>
Vought XTBU-1 Seawolf First flight, December 1941
View attachment 818625
This was what the Avenger dreamed of being

I think you’d do better just using that to grow tomatoes in. Look at ALL that glass!

 

[sonofpegasus]

OTL the FAA had single seat fighters; starting with the Fairey Flycatcher in 1923 , which was replaced by the Hawker Nimrod service from 1932, with the Gloster Gladiator then entering service in December 1938. It was the RN/RAF/AM foul up that left the FAA without a viable single seat fighter in 1940. If a single seat naval monoplane fighter had been specified at the same time as the F14/35 specification for the Gladiator had been issued there is no practical reason why such an aircraft could not be in service by 1939.