Greek cruiser plans dated back to the 1920s, when it was hoped to replace the two pre-dreadnoughts with a pair of heavy cruisers. It was not officially formulated in the 1932 naval law which called for two full destroyer flotillas, leaders included although the intention to eventually replace Averof with a new cruiser was mentioned by none less than Venizelos in parliament. Then the law was amended for the possibility of a new cruiser in place of the two destroyer leaders. Then come 1939 you had actual negotiations for the large cruiser mentioned, intended to be able to hunt down any Italian heavy cruisers venturing in the Aegean in wartime, plus one or two destroyer leaders (Greek admiralty wanting them to be as similaras possible to Tribals... but wi5h high angle guns) then come 1940-41 the efforts to get some used cruisers. By 1944 the Greek naval staff wanted a Fiji post-war.
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
So I have a dumb question to ask. Did Yakov Dzhugashvilli get captured and die the same way as OTL? It probably wouldn’t change much but it would be interesting if he did actually start spouting Nazi propaganda or survived. Stalin often complained about him while he was living, even before his capture, but he did seem to miss him when he was gone. It’s not like Stalin ever mentioned it but I always wondered if he was as harsh as he was to the Germans at least partly because his son died in a Nazi camp. It’s not like Stalin ever knew he accidentally electrocuted himself as far as I know.
I know it probably has no bearing on the timeline but it occurred to me the other day I should ask.
I know it probably has no bearing on the timeline but it occurred to me the other day I should ask.
No idea really. Since there is no chance of Yakov succeeding his daddy...
I get that. He’s not really an important historical figure. I just was curious about his fate for the effect it might have on Stalin.
Part 142
Hopa, March 24, 1944
The little town fell to the Soviet army. The Turkish 3rd army was fiercely resisting so far but the Soviet forces had already penetrated some five km deep.
Usak, March 25th, 1944
Last October the Turkish Western front had stopped the Greeks just short of Usak. Now it had fallen to Georgios Kosmas D Army Corps, three days into the offensive a nice present for Stergiadis government back in Athens for the Greek independence day. The Turkish army was fighting as doggedly as ever but the weight of men and machines on all fronts was grinding it down more with each day. The Greeks would keep pushing towards Banaz while the main thrust of their offensive evolved out of Balikesir towards the sea of Marmara.
Eski Sehir, March 27th, 1944
Three dozen USAAF fighters came nearly at treetop height to strafe the airport. It was overkill. The Turkish Air Force was as good as gone by this point, finally overwhelmed by the combined allied air offensive. The Royal Bulgarian Air Force and for that matter the Luftwaffe units in the Balkans were in hardly better shape. It was only further north that the Luftwaffe and its Romanian and Croatian allies could still hold its own. After a fashion at least...
Bodrum, March 31st, 1944
Landing craft and small boats begun landing the men of the 12th Archipelago Infantry Regiment to what had been ancient Halicarnassus covered by a quartet of destroyers. The regiment had been raised to garrison Kos, since its liberation from the Italians back in 1940. Normally, its landing even with the rudimentary Turkish coastal defenses in the opposite coast would had been folly and invite counterattack by stronger forces. Only now only companies of sailors and gendarmes were available in the region. And if the landing as American liaison officers in Athens complained was a waste of resources militarily, it was making political sense.
Doiran, Macedonia, April 1st, 1944
The front had been relatively quiet in the two months since the Germans and Bulgarians had stopped the Allied advance in the second battle of Doiran. Now Allied artillery and air strikes signaled the beginning of the third battle. It was not entirely clear whether Pangalos hoped to break the Axis front, his forces were still facing supply constraints after all. But for certain Von Weichs would have his hands full for the foreseeable future, making it impossible to shift any reinforcements to Anatolia.
Eastern Anatolia, April 2nd, 1944
Köprüköy fell to the Soviet 47th Army. Turkish and German defenders would briefly hold back the advancing Soviets to the west of the city, till a pair of Soviet tank brigades could be brought forward and break the new defensive line. Enough time would be gained to set another one. But each successive defensive line kept moving further to the west and closer to Erzurum...
Elazig, April 2nd, 1944
Lt General William Slim walked through the streets of the town. His forces were advancing at a snail's pace in this latest offensive of his. But there was reason to this and not just that he kept being robbed of good divisions to reinforce the fighting in Italy and Macedonia. His army had taken Diyarbakir and its chromite mines already. His goal now was to tie down the maximum number of Turkish and German forces at the least cost to his men. In this he was succeeding admirably. If it meant delaying the speed of his advances it was acceptable. Let the Greeks and the Soviets do the bleeding instead if they were in a hurry.
He could not fail to note entire neighborhoods ruined and abandoned though. Although for some reason there were fields between the city proper and these."
"This has not been us." he noted to T.E. Lawrence walking by his side.
"This is not Elazig you are looking to now. This is Harput and what remains of its Armenian neighborhoods, since the last war..."
Western Anatolia, April 5th, 1944
Simav and Gediz were secured by the Greek D Corps. Banaz to the east of Usak would be taken two days later. The Greek advance continued despite the corps being potentially exposed to the Turkish 1st army shifting reserves south from Bursa to Kutahya by rail and counterattacking. After all Turkish forces were also heavily engaged in the north where the Greeks were advancing towards Panormos, Bandirma for the Turks, the last significant town in Asiatic Greece still occupied, and Bursa. Besides the railroad was under constant air attack...
Burma, April 6th, 1944
Imphal and Kohima were surrounded by the Japanese army. But the British forces despite being cut off did not give any sign of intending to surrender any time soon...
Sivas, April 10th, 1944
Field marshal Fevzi Cakmak, slammed the telegram on the desk of Recep Peker. If the "Millî Şef", the so called national chief felt offended he did a credible attempt at pretending he had not.
"This", Cakmak noted icily "is Fahrettin pasha reporting the Soviets have broken our lines in the east. The 3rd army is in full retreat. What units have not been cut off at least Fahrettin expects Erzurum to fall within the week. The only reason it is going to take so long is the delays the Soviets will be suffering reducing pockets left on the way"
"I'm calling on Berlin for reinforcement right away"
"The OKW sends its best wishes but sorry they don't have any divisions to spare."
"I'll talk directly to Hitler."
"You've just handed your resignation Peker."
"You can't do that! I'm the national chief! And the head of the party!"
"His majesty has requested your resignation. Here. Halk partisi is electing a new head as we speak Ismet and Kazim are taking care of it as we speak. Now are you going to go the easy way or the hard way."
"Ismet and Karabekir. They will tear each other out."
"They will not. But that's not your problem. Lets face it. In 1941 it might have looked a good idea to join the war. But we've lost as have the Germans. We need to get out before the Western front collapses and while we can still salvage something. Now what are you going to do?"
The little town fell to the Soviet army. The Turkish 3rd army was fiercely resisting so far but the Soviet forces had already penetrated some five km deep.
Usak, March 25th, 1944
Last October the Turkish Western front had stopped the Greeks just short of Usak. Now it had fallen to Georgios Kosmas D Army Corps, three days into the offensive a nice present for Stergiadis government back in Athens for the Greek independence day. The Turkish army was fighting as doggedly as ever but the weight of men and machines on all fronts was grinding it down more with each day. The Greeks would keep pushing towards Banaz while the main thrust of their offensive evolved out of Balikesir towards the sea of Marmara.
Eski Sehir, March 27th, 1944
Three dozen USAAF fighters came nearly at treetop height to strafe the airport. It was overkill. The Turkish Air Force was as good as gone by this point, finally overwhelmed by the combined allied air offensive. The Royal Bulgarian Air Force and for that matter the Luftwaffe units in the Balkans were in hardly better shape. It was only further north that the Luftwaffe and its Romanian and Croatian allies could still hold its own. After a fashion at least...
Bodrum, March 31st, 1944
Landing craft and small boats begun landing the men of the 12th Archipelago Infantry Regiment to what had been ancient Halicarnassus covered by a quartet of destroyers. The regiment had been raised to garrison Kos, since its liberation from the Italians back in 1940. Normally, its landing even with the rudimentary Turkish coastal defenses in the opposite coast would had been folly and invite counterattack by stronger forces. Only now only companies of sailors and gendarmes were available in the region. And if the landing as American liaison officers in Athens complained was a waste of resources militarily, it was making political sense.
Doiran, Macedonia, April 1st, 1944
The front had been relatively quiet in the two months since the Germans and Bulgarians had stopped the Allied advance in the second battle of Doiran. Now Allied artillery and air strikes signaled the beginning of the third battle. It was not entirely clear whether Pangalos hoped to break the Axis front, his forces were still facing supply constraints after all. But for certain Von Weichs would have his hands full for the foreseeable future, making it impossible to shift any reinforcements to Anatolia.
Eastern Anatolia, April 2nd, 1944
Köprüköy fell to the Soviet 47th Army. Turkish and German defenders would briefly hold back the advancing Soviets to the west of the city, till a pair of Soviet tank brigades could be brought forward and break the new defensive line. Enough time would be gained to set another one. But each successive defensive line kept moving further to the west and closer to Erzurum...
Elazig, April 2nd, 1944
Lt General William Slim walked through the streets of the town. His forces were advancing at a snail's pace in this latest offensive of his. But there was reason to this and not just that he kept being robbed of good divisions to reinforce the fighting in Italy and Macedonia. His army had taken Diyarbakir and its chromite mines already. His goal now was to tie down the maximum number of Turkish and German forces at the least cost to his men. In this he was succeeding admirably. If it meant delaying the speed of his advances it was acceptable. Let the Greeks and the Soviets do the bleeding instead if they were in a hurry.
He could not fail to note entire neighborhoods ruined and abandoned though. Although for some reason there were fields between the city proper and these."
"This has not been us." he noted to T.E. Lawrence walking by his side.
"This is not Elazig you are looking to now. This is Harput and what remains of its Armenian neighborhoods, since the last war..."
Western Anatolia, April 5th, 1944
Simav and Gediz were secured by the Greek D Corps. Banaz to the east of Usak would be taken two days later. The Greek advance continued despite the corps being potentially exposed to the Turkish 1st army shifting reserves south from Bursa to Kutahya by rail and counterattacking. After all Turkish forces were also heavily engaged in the north where the Greeks were advancing towards Panormos, Bandirma for the Turks, the last significant town in Asiatic Greece still occupied, and Bursa. Besides the railroad was under constant air attack...
Burma, April 6th, 1944
Imphal and Kohima were surrounded by the Japanese army. But the British forces despite being cut off did not give any sign of intending to surrender any time soon...
Sivas, April 10th, 1944
Field marshal Fevzi Cakmak, slammed the telegram on the desk of Recep Peker. If the "Millî Şef", the so called national chief felt offended he did a credible attempt at pretending he had not.
"This", Cakmak noted icily "is Fahrettin pasha reporting the Soviets have broken our lines in the east. The 3rd army is in full retreat. What units have not been cut off at least Fahrettin expects Erzurum to fall within the week. The only reason it is going to take so long is the delays the Soviets will be suffering reducing pockets left on the way"
"I'm calling on Berlin for reinforcement right away"
"The OKW sends its best wishes but sorry they don't have any divisions to spare."
"I'll talk directly to Hitler."
"You've just handed your resignation Peker."
"You can't do that! I'm the national chief! And the head of the party!"
"His majesty has requested your resignation. Here. Halk partisi is electing a new head as we speak Ismet and Kazim are taking care of it as we speak. Now are you going to go the easy way or the hard way."
"Ismet and Karabekir. They will tear each other out."
"They will not. But that's not your problem. Lets face it. In 1941 it might have looked a good idea to join the war. But we've lost as have the Germans. We need to get out before the Western front collapses and while we can still salvage something. Now what are you going to do?"
So lemme guess someone is Turkey is going to do what people have done to Mussolini.
The Soviet advance in the Black Sea is abysmal. Going for peace now might spare Trabzon/Trapezounta.
Nah. This is the Facist Council coup. If Benito had been smart he would be alive. But he got abducted by Skorzezy and then figureheaded by Hitler with Salo. Peker is not getting either. He is done. Might or might not commit suicide.
I do wonder if Ismet makes Karabekir PM so that Karabekir takes the fall for the peace treaty? Karabekir could be very easy to manipulate with stories of importance.
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I wouldn’t be so sure. If the Soviets want it they’re going to get it. That’s not even the far extent of their claims going off the map on Wikipedia. Turkey might get away without having to agree to an unconditional surrender by surrendering early but it feels like it’s going to only be one or two steps away from that.
I imagine the Greeks would be much more involved in the liberating the Balkans and garrisoning Anatolia than any prospective charge into Germany. I imagine that since we have at least two probable civil wars in the Balkans brewing in Albania and Yugoslavia, maybe a third if Romania gets split, atleast some Turks who are going to be unhappy they’re now Greek citizens, and probably the complete occupation of Bulgaria that the Greeks are going to have their hands full just trying to stop that pot from boiling over. If they make it as far as Croatia in anything more than a token manner I’d be surprised.
Plus we’re about 2 months out from D-day. The Western Allies are likely going to start seeing the Balkans as even more of a side show than they do now. So that mean less equipment and less men. Particularly if Dragoon happens simultaneously with Overlord ITTL like the allies originally planned . Which I think is very, very likely seeing as last time it was paused because they felt they didn’t have enough resources. Resources they’d probably have since theirs been few loses overall alongside a significantly more powerful Free France.
Considering the events in Turkey, will we be seeing some stuff on the Fatherland Front (or a similar organization for that matter due to butterflies) in Bulgaria and whether the events in Turkey could serve as some sort of inspiration for the *Fatherland Front to make their move.
The moment one falls the other will follow, as in WW1. But the Germans have still a stronger position in Bulgaria than in Turkey. So I think an attempt to break away from the Axis will probably fail.
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I personally think that Bulgaria might have the equivalent of the OTL Greek Civil War. Because OTL the Fatherland front only rose a up after Stalin declared war on Bulgaria, which he did when he was at the border. Since the Soviets are moving at more or less their OTL pace, that won’t happen until early September. Now is it possible the Allies don’t take Bulgaria by September? Sure. But it’s likely they’ve at least got a large chunk By then. Particularly since the Nazis are probably going to start treating the Balkans as even more of a sideshow when there are landings in France and a Soviet army marching on them
Turkey will drop out of war by the end of April/early May and the Germans won't be able to stop them. It remains to be seen what the Turks will be able (or permitted) to salvage, the Greeks will want Turkey severely punished. I don't predict a civil war in Turkey. However in Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and maybe Albania civil war is almost a certainty. Beacause of that, I don't think the Greeks will have any significant presence during TTL Overlord and the fight in German soil. Perhaps 2-4 warships will be in the armada supporting Overlord and maybe we see a battalion participating, for symbolic reasons.
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Especially with what happened in Hungary with the Arrow Cross Party being installed after the surrender of Romania being an OTL precedent for what could happen in Bulgaria.
That and so many parties like the Maronites, Kurds, Armenians, and Assyrians want their Justice for what Turkey has done to them.