Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles

Periodic reminder.

1. This is supposed to be a plausible TL.
2. This is not supposed to be a Greek wank. Yes Greece is better off given the nature of the POD but remember 1.
3. This is not supposed to be a Turkey screw. Yes Turkey is worse off given the nature of the POD but remember 1.
 
I think Greece would be much better off just getting bithnyia and Caria more than anything.
Periodic reminder.

1. This is supposed to be a plausible TL.
2. This is not supposed to be a Greek wank. Yes Greece is better off given the nature of the POD but remember 1.
3. This is not supposed to be a Turkey screw. Yes Turkey is worse off given the nature of the POD but remember 1.
Tbf it's an automatic Turk screw when Turkey loses its most industrially capable lands but it's a more plausible Turk screw if anything? I could see sinope and more importantly Cilicia be it's main regions industrially speaking.
 
Anyway, since we’re on the topic of the Italians I was wondering if there was going to be a TTL version of the Armistice of Cassibile? And assuming there is, if there was if it was gonna be handled any better in TTL? Presumably since the Allies are doing better they might actually garrison Rome and organize it a bit better with the Italians so said garrison had an airport to land at.
 
No it could not. First no Greek, ever in the last two centuries ever made any serious claim in either Magna Grecia or Sicily. Second there is no desire in the other side of the Adriatic to join Greece nor was there in the past. Third even if there was desire to join Greece, which there wasn't, the Griko population in the province of Lecce where Grecia Salentina lies is 6.75%, it's 1.33% overall for all of Apulia. If anything in Calabria it's lower at 1.22%. Fourth what is Greece supposed to be gaining again? A hostile population that run at 4.5 million in 1936 half as much as the enlarged TTL Greek population? Or a hostile power with 5 times its GDP and population?


So Greece should drop a claim for referendums it would be guaranteed to lose and would not be making anyway, as well reparations running to a significant fraction of her GDP in order to get... 4 rocks off Tunisia? For good measure it should then cram 80,000 mountaineers not altogether interested in joining it, in said 4 rocks that have less 15,000 people. Again why Dragoumis or Kafandaris or whoever is running the Greek delegation at the peace conference is doing any of this?

So Greece is supposed to try to solve an issue that currently does not exist in the first place, by creating an issue from nowhere?
Honestly, 80 000 mountaineers sound much better as potential settlers for inland Bithynia, Mysia, Ionia and Caria than anything else.
 

Serpent

Banned
Honestly, 80 000 mountaineers sound much better as potential settlers for inland Bithynia, Mysia, Ionia and Caria than anything else.

You know it doesn't sound like a bad idea..of course you can't force them to come to Caria frex but you can entice them with land grants

That's another way to go about it, and one I've been thinking as of late.

ITTL Greece could just press for a special minority autonomous zone comprising of only just of the Griko villages in Apulia and Calabria, aka Grecìa Salentina & Bovesia alone, not the whole provinces, said autonomous zone could be similar to the Autonomous Province of Bolzano, aka South Tyrol, and to the Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus, in the sense it won't just follow established internal borders, but rather bypass them. Even think of the Native American nations within the US for a more accurate example, how their administrative borders aren't just confined in one singular state, but can spread over many states.

ITTL Greece could open two consulates in the biggest Griko settlement in Martano, Apulia and Condofuri, Calabria, respectively. Said Greek consulate could serve to encourage the establishment of Griko cultural and religious associations, (in addition to establishing museums, theaters and many other cultural establishments), promoting Hellenic patriotism through these structures to the local Griko people, with the twin objective of restoring and strengthening the centuries lost connection of the Griko with their Hellenic homeland, as well as to promote immigration of the Griko people to Hellas, and to Anatolia more specifically, in regions such as Bithynia, Caria and Mysia, luring them with the promise of substantial land grants, while Greece offering to purchase the estates of the Griko people in Italy through a fund established solely to easy the Griko immigration to Hellas, then either resell them to Italian individuals, or just repurpose those now vacant buildings them into extra facilities for the cultural associations (too much immigration from Italians into the minority zone could after all alter the demographics and render the Griko people to a minority, as losing control of the minority zone's council(/legislature?) which would in turn weaken the Greek consulates hold over the Griko people).
Also, of course, said Griko resettlement fund would also offer substantial financial grants to any Griko willing to resettle in Hellas. Also ITTL Greece could provide the Griko people with Hellenic citizenship, as well as promote travel and trade between Greece and Grecìa Salentina & Bovesia. (Even arranging school trips from and to Grecìa Salentina & Bovesia in the future, when they become relevant.)

It would be similar in a sense to the Turkish mufti and the Turkish consulate in Western Thrace in the modern day, but without resorting to agitating the local populace against the Italian people/state. Or in a sense similar to Orban's influence over the neighbouring Hungarian diaspora, in the sense that these Griko cultural/religious associations should be heavily controlled/influenced by the ITTL Greek state.
 
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ITTL Greece could just press for a special minority autonomous zone comprising of only just of the Griko villages in Apulia and Calabria, aka Grecìa Salentina & Bovesia alone, not the whole provinces, said autonomous zone could be similar to the Autonomous Province of Bolzano, aka South Tyrol, and to the Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus, in the sense it won't just follow established internal borders, but rather bypass them. Even think of the Native American nations within the US for a more accurate example, how their administrative borders aren't just confined in one singular state, but can spread over many states.
Are many Greeks even aware of the Griko population in Italy at this point? Seems a bit far fetched that anyone would push for this.
 
Creating a connection with the Griko is not a but idea if it is handled carefuly and with o territorial ambitions. Maybe due to the poor conditions of the south Italians they as well would see some land in Anatolia as better than staying under the local mafia. The cultural similarities and connection with Italy might as well improve.

I would on the other hand like to prop up the question of Albania. OTL after the war there was a half serious proposal from the Albanian government for a union with Greece so they can hold on to power and not lose to the communist of Enver Hozha. That might go somewhere ITTL though I find it unlikely as well to go towards a full union. The fall of Italy leave Albania ripe for Greek influence. The Sazan Island is what I thought as well could be gained with not a lot of fuss as Albania has no fleet and no capability of using said island.
 
Creating a connection with the Griko is not a but idea if it is handled carefuly and with o territorial ambitions. Maybe due to the poor conditions of the south Italians they as well would see some land in Anatolia as better than staying under the local mafia. The cultural similarities and connection with Italy might as well improve.

I would on the other hand like to prop up the question of Albania. OTL after the war there was a half serious proposal from the Albanian government for a union with Greece so they can hold on to power and not lose to the communist of Enver Hozha. That might go somewhere ITTL though I find it unlikely as well to go towards a full union. The fall of Italy leave Albania ripe for Greek influence. The Sazan Island is what I thought as well could be gained with not a lot of fuss as Albania has no fleet and no capability of using said island.
Maybe greek can push for more orthodox influence in Albania.. although i doubt that the Albanians will convert to orthodox...unless an autocephalous church of Albania is created with the liturgies in Albanian instead for Arabic (for Muslims) and Latin (for the Catholics)
 
I just finished a game in "Making History:WWI", playing as Greece, and I had conquered almost the whole world!
It was fun, but not as fun as plausible AH.
So, even if many of us would love to see Greece gaining a colonial empire, or everything of a strategic importance in the Eastern and Central Mediterranean, I guess we have to stick within the author's lines, respecting his thorough work and writing skills.

IMHO, having Greece claiming Pantelleria, Jerba or the Griko communities, is near ASB, as it would require a supernatural power to replace the minds of the Greek political establishment, or the appearance of a new political party with a Musolini-style agenda, and there is no time for that.

Claiming Sason (Sazan) is not impossible, but again, it requires knowledge not available at the time. I mean, the only reason why Greece would be interested in the islet is for not letting it be used by another power in the future. One case is of course if Greece gains the whole Northern Epirus, so Sason would be useful as an OP on the flanks of Albania. In this case Greece wouldn't have much problem to acquire the islet, as it formally belonged to Italy at the time.
 
Creating a connection with the Griko is not a but idea if it is handled carefuly and with o territorial ambitions. Maybe due to the poor conditions of the south Italians they as well would see some land in Anatolia as better than staying under the local mafia. The cultural similarities and connection with Italy might as well improve.

I would on the other hand like to prop up the question of Albania. OTL after the war there was a half serious proposal from the Albanian government for a union with Greece so they can hold on to power and not lose to the communist of Enver Hozha. That might go somewhere ITTL though I find it unlikely as well to go towards a full union. The fall of Italy leave Albania ripe for Greek influence. The Sazan Island is what I thought as well could be gained with not a lot of fuss as Albania has no fleet and no capability of using said island.
I could see some sort of Greco-Albanian federations forming, particularly if the Greeks are already garrisoning the area in TTL, which is plausible. But I’d imagine it would have to be a very loose union due to Albanias complicated religious situation. Probably a very autonomous Albania with a Greek head of state. At least at first, eventually I expect the Greek requirement to be waived with time

it would be much easier to unionize with the southern half of the country though since it’s the most orthodox and Bektashi. Maybe there would be a Cold War split?

Edit: if such a union does happen it will be interesting to see what the Albanian border is up north. Albania at the time had a lot of Kosovo and the portion of North Macedonia that’s largely Albanian. If Yugoslavia falls to the communists either completely there’s likely no reason to give it back. But assuming there’s some kind of free Yugoslavia post war, those lands would definitely be an issue between it and the hypothetical union. The king might expect said land even without a country so he could have one. A lot of interesting political issues would arise if such a union formed.
 
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Part 116
Ioannina, March 28th, 1943

Napoleon Zervas raised the Greek flag over the central square. Much of the town including the building of the Zosimaia school had been heavily damaged by over two years of fighting. North of the town the regiments of Zervas VIII Infantry Division, were still pushing northwards against the Italians. Almost half of Epirus was still occupied and if anything in even more chaos than the actual frontlines as bands of the Greek army of the Interior, were fighting it out with Italian occupation forces and thousands of collaborationist troops recruited by the Italians from Greece's Albanian minority.

Mount Vermion, March 31st, 1943

Ares Makedon had been driven to tears by the tongue lashing delivered by Sklavainas. Someone might wonder why someone of Ares apparent abilities, accomplishments and actual power, after all it was Ares who had created LAS as a fighting force at a time the communist party was still ambivalent of the Greek war against the Axis in the first place would stand to a relative nobody, Sklavainas had been a successful trade unionist and unsuccessful candidate for the parliament. But party discipline run strong and Ares has an almost religious devotion to Zachariadis...

Epirus, April 3rd, 1943


The port town of Parga was liberated by the Greek II Infantry Division. The Greek advance north continued slowly but steadily all along the front, Igoumenitsa and Kalpaki would be liberated in April 9th, by the time the Greek offensive temporarily halted in April 12th, the Metsovon pass was cut off and Axis troop movements between Epirus and Macedonia would need to go through Korytza further north.

Athens, April 5th, 1943


Aca Stanojevic had led the government of Yugoslavia since Christmas 1937. It had been a thankless job for the 91 year old prime minister, between conflicts within his own cabinet, pressures from the throne, both young king Peter II, who had come of age the previous year and prince Paul who had effectively ruled Yugoslavia since the death of king Alexander and pressure from the allies. The Yugoslav government in exile had to its credit a large, mostly Serb, army in Greece that had performed relatively well for the past two years. But it also had to deal with increasing complaints both from its allies and within the exiled army over the activity, or lack of activity of the Chetniks under Draza Mihailovic back home. Mihailovic had been generally idle against the occupation forces fearing mass reprisals against the Serb population planning instead a mass uprising at some nebulous point in the future when the Allied armies in the Balkans would advance north to liberate Yugoslavia. At the same time several units of his Chetniks as well as armed bands claiming affiliation to them had not been idle in fighting the partisans and often working together with the Italians and Croatian Ustashe in doing so. It was hardly a situation either the Greeks who were hosting the Yugoslav government in exile or the British or its own soldiers were willing to accept when their own armies were bleeding on the front and supplies and reinforcements reached the Axis forces with little trouble though Serb railroads. With the increasingly geriatric Stanojevic unable to cope with the pressures a new government under Slobodan Jovanovic had been appointed. The situation back in Serbia had to be dealt with, without any further delays.

Ravna Gora, April 8th, 1943


Lieutenant colonel Zaharije Ostojić hopped off the Westland Lysander that had carried him to occupied Serbia. Draza Mihailovic along with Dragutin Keserovic his chief of operations, and Zvonimir Vuckovic, warned over the radio were waiting for him. Ostojic handled to Mihailovic the enclosed envelope with the orders from the government in exile. Mihailovic turned white as he read the orders.

"I'm recalled to Athens?"
"For consultations with the new government sir. I have orders to replace you during your absence."
Mihailovic looked towards Keserovic and Vuckovic. "Do you think I should go?"
Keserovic the regular officer of the two looked mildly scandalized. "It's the crown orders sir. What else should you do?"

Mihailovic boarded the waiting plane...

Cairo, April 9th, 1943

The Egyptian, a lowly secretary in the Allied General Headquarters pulled out the small camera and start photographing the documents the English major had brought him. He did not know nor cared why the Englishman was betraying his country. Money? Blackmail of some kind? Ideology? He had no need to know. By nighttime the photographs would be in the hands of the right people...

Sivas, April 12th, 1943


The intelligence coup in Cairo, had been huge. Now it was up to Erwin Rommel and Fevzi Cakmak to take advantage of it. Apparently Winston Churchill had managed to convince everyone to have another go at Gallipoli. Only this time it would be done right, the plans MAH agents had managed to get their hands on in Cairo were talking about 5 or 7 Allied divisions landing in Gallipoli and he Allied armies in Thessaly attacking north. It was a plan characteristic of the Englishman and the Greeks had apparently enthusiastically supported it, after all Pangalos was a dye in the wool Venizelist and Venizelos has insisted for two decades what great opportunity had been lost at Gallipoli when Constantine had refused to participate. One had to agree that just like in the last war it made sense, if it succeeded it could knock Turkey out of the war and create a domino with Bulgaria following and the Axis position in the Balkans collapsing. If it succeeded. If it failed it could be as much a quagmire for the Allies as it had been in 1915. German reinforcements were already on the way, three more divisions would be available by the end of the month. Cakmak was confident of victory. And a victory at Gallipoli
could well give Turkey the opportunity to extricate itself from the war on reasonably good terms, the first inquiries Turkish diplomats had made in Switzerland had not been entirely promising. He kept that last thought to himself...

Berlin, April 13th, 1943

German radio made known to the world the finding of mass graves containing the bodies of thousands of Polish officers massacred by the NKVD back in 1939. The Soviet Union would deny the accusations. Not many, particularly among the Poles in exile, would take her denials at face value, even though the other Allied governments, the Poles excepted, officially accepted the Soviet position. The work of Wladislaw Sikorski, already difficult, had just been made even more so...
 
Cairo, April 9th, 1943

The Egyptian, a lowly secretary in the Allied General Headquarters pulled out the small camera and start photographing the documents the English major had brought him. He did not know nor cared why the Englishman was betraying his country. Money? Blackmail of some kind? Ideology? He had no need to know. By nighttime the photographs would be in the hands of the right people...

Sivas, April 12th, 1943

The intelligence coup in Cairo, had been huge. Now it was up to Erwin Rommel and Fevzi Cakmak to take advantage of it. Apparently Winston Churchill had managed to convince everyone to have another go at Gallipoli. Only this time it would be done right, the plans MAH agents had managed to get their hands on in Cairo were talking about 5 or 7 Allied divisions landing in Gallipoli and he Allied armies in Thessaly attacking north. It was a plan characteristic of the Englishman and the Greeks had apparently enthusiastically supported it, after all Pangalos was a dye in the wool Venizelist and Venizelos has insisted for two decades what great opportunity had been lost at Gallipoli when Constantine had refused to participate.
Too good to be true... Perhaps we are looking at TTL's Operation Mincemeat ?
 
In the utterly unlikely case Greece would be claiming the islands what exactly is it gaining from pissing off (even more) Italy and why the US and Britain would care to accommodate it?
more importantly why does everybody assume the Law of the Sea will go the same way in this scenario world as it went historically?
 
Too good to be true... Perhaps we are looking at TTL's Operation Mincemeat ?
If it’s not I’m going to be incredibly surprised. I suppose it cold be accurate though.

To be honest I had forgotten about the Polish considering the Greeks have kinda claimed the secondary power spotlight for the Allies. I wonder if you’re going to change the ill fate of Sirkorski? I guess it depends on wether you think it was really poor maintenance or sabotage, one being significant easier to butterfly away easily. Because even if the sabotage was corrected there would likely be later attempts to get him out of the picture. I’m not sure how much his survival would change in reality sadly. He would have the best chance of negotiating at least a partially free Poland.
 
Mount Vermion, March 31st, 1943

Ares Makedon had been driven to tears by the tongue lashing delivered by Sklavainas. Someone might wonder why someone of Ares apparent abilities, accomplishments and actual power, after all it was Ares who had created LAS as a fighting force at a time the communist party was still ambivalent of the Greek war against the Axis in the first place would stand to a relative nobody, Sklavainas had been a successful trade unionist and unsuccessful candidate for the parliament. But party discipline run strong and Ares has an almost religious devotion to Zachariadis...
United front
 
Amazing update and a lot faster than I expected to!
Epirus, April 3rd, 1943

The port town of Parga was liberated by the Greek II Infantry Division. The Greek advance north continued slowly but steadily all along the front, Igoumenitsa and Kalpaki would be liberated in April 9th, by the time the Greek offensive temporarily halted in April 12th, the Metsovon pass was cut off and Axis troop movements between Epirus and Macedonia would need to go through Korytza further north.
At least in Epirus the Greeks are really pushing up close to the pre-war border. I wonder if they make an attempt to retake Corfu as they start to take more ports along the Adriatic coast. It would be risky but if they can pull it off and hold it it long enough to build an airbase or 3 it would cripple Axis supplies lines in the southern Adriatic.
Cairo, April 9th, 1943

The Egyptian, a lowly secretary in the Allied General Headquarters pulled out the small camera and start photographing the documents the English major had brought him. He did not know nor cared why the Englishman was betraying his country. Money? Blackmail of some kind? Ideology? He had no need to know. By nighttime the photographs would be in the hands of the right people...
How convenient that this lowly secretary would be contacted by a major who has all these plans and was able to smuggle them out and I'm sure make sure he was able to lose any and all tails. /s
Sivas, April 12th, 1943

The intelligence coup in Cairo, had been huge. Now it was up to Erwin Rommel and Fevzi Cakmak to take advantage of it. Apparently Winston Churchill had managed to convince everyone to have another go at Gallipoli. Only this time it would be done right, the plans MAH agents had managed to get their hands on in Cairo were talking about 5 or 7 Allied divisions landing in Gallipoli and he Allied armies in Thessaly attacking north. It was a plan characteristic of the Englishman and the Greeks had apparently enthusiastically supported it, after all Pangalos was a dye in the wool Venizelist and Venizelos has insisted for two decades what great opportunity had been lost at Gallipoli when Constantine had refused to participate. One had to agree that just like in the last war it made sense, if it succeeded it could knock Turkey out of the war and create a domino with Bulgaria following and the Axis position in the Balkans collapsing. If it succeeded. If it failed it could be as much a quagmire for the Allies as it had been in 1915. German reinforcements were already on the way, three more divisions would be available by the end of the month. Cakmak was confident of victory. And a victory at Gallipoli could well give Turkey the opportunity to extricate itself from the war on reasonably good terms, the first inquiries Turkish diplomats had made in Switzerland had not been entirely promising. He kept that last thought to himself...
I think this shows more than anything how desperate Turkey's position has become. Most importantly they don't even seem to be trying to cross reference being given a literal gold mine in intelligence where before they have had minimal to no success. All war Turkey's intelligence services have been minimally effective and now suddenly they just randomly found out not only where the allies are planning to attack next but even in their strength! Even with this intelligence at least in Turkey they are only hoping to win to get decent terms in peace; as in Turkey is already ready to leave this war but they need a big victory to get terms that are acceptable to them. Also with all the supplies and men going to this out of the way front you can pretty much discount any great counterattacks in Macedonia, Epirus, Kurdistan or Smyrna as everything that can be spare is going to be lined up on the Gallipoli peninsula. This is by itself a strategic victory even if the Allies weren't planning to land elsewhere just in the lost time which is about the only resource the Axis still has.

That last line though reminds me of the saying "It takes only one to make war but everyone to make peace". Turkey would gladly accept ante-bellum peace at this point I'm betting but doesn't want to accept further losses of territory or restrictions and I am guessing the allies demanded some type of restrictions that Turkey is not ready to accept. Honestly I could see this spiral slowly right to the end of the war where every time Turkey is ready to accept the peace deal from 3 months ago their position has deteriorated so much since than that the previous deal is off the table. Turkey keeps trying to accept deals that are just beyond what the allies are demanding over and over in a cycle until Turkey ends up having to surrender unconditionally because there is no one left to fight and all their cities are occupied.
 
Ioannina, March 28th, 1943

Napoleon Zervas raised the Greek flag over the central square. Much of the town including the building of the Zosimaia school had been heavily damaged by over two years of fighting. North of the town the regiments of Zervas VIII Infantry Division, were still pushing northwards against the Italians. Almost half of Epirus was still occupied and if anything in even more chaos than the actual frontlines as bands of the Greek army of the Interior, were fighting it out with Italian occupation forces and thousands of collaborationist troops recruited by the Italians from Greece's Albanian minority.
Well that is for the Albanians chams
 
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