Nobunaga’s Ambition Realized: Dawn of a New Rising Sun

Are the Japanese Merchants and Ships sailing to Europe on their own in their role as middleman or are they re exporting the products from the Japanese ports to the European merchants.

What happens if the Japanese suddenly decide that the Chinese Emperor is overstepping and cut all tribute? Japan as powerful as it stands now can cause far greater losses to the Chinese at sea and economically.

What about Japanese trade with India and rest of Asia? Are they influencing the other Asian countries to take up western shipbuilding?
 
Are the Japanese Merchants and Ships sailing to Europe on their own in their role as middleman or are they re exporting the products from the Japanese ports to the European merchants.

What happens if the Japanese suddenly decide that the Chinese Emperor is overstepping and cut all tribute? Japan as powerful as it stands now can cause far greater losses to the Chinese at sea and economically.

What about Japanese trade with India and rest of Asia? Are they influencing the other Asian countries to take up western shipbuilding?
1. For now they’re trading with European merchants and not going to Europe directly, but that will end soon.

2. Access to Chinese goods and not fighting the Ming still outweighs all other benefits of not paying tribute. Without it being a tributary, the Ming may go after Bireitou and Bireitou is the chokepoint between the home islands and all of its trade as of now. The Japanese navy may be able to defeat the Ming navy but their army would be no match due to sheer numbers.

3. Joseon and Siam will be among those will take up western shipbuilding in the near future. It remains to be seen what happens beyond them.
 
3. Joseon and Siam will be among those will take up western shipbuilding in the near future. It remains to be seen what happens beyond them.
With this, the Chinese start to take a liking to foreign diplomacy due to their newfound naval power that its supposed tributaries are now having, with it acting like the Japanese Mikado's endorsements of conquests and subjugations, but on the scale of entire nation-states.

The Chinese is also right in being wary about the Japanese Ritsuryō, considering that it considered itself as an empire that were historically irreverent to the concept of the supremacy of the Chinese imperial court.
 
... What happens if the Japanese suddenly decide that the Chinese Emperor is overstepping and cut all tribute? Japan as powerful as it stands now can cause far greater losses to the Chinese at sea and economically...
Indeed. And since the Ming opted to scrap their fleets after Zheng He, there's really nothing they can do about it - even Korea has a stronger coast guard right now.
 
Indeed. And since the Ming opted to scrap their fleets after Zheng He, there's really nothing they can do about it - even Korea has a stronger coast guard right now.
Well, the Chinese can say that it has entirely delegated its naval duties to its tributaries, and that it is very well within their right to have a say on how the balance of power will be decided with it.
 
Well, the Chinese can say that it has entirely delegated its naval duties to its tributaries, and that it is very well within their right to have a say on how the balance of power will be decided with it.
The problem is that China has no way to retaliate if the Japanese got a bit handsy with the other tributaries like okiwana tho, and I do think China would feel uncomfortable about it.
 
The problem is that China has no way to retaliate if the Japanese got a bit handsy with the other tributaries like okiwana tho, and I do think China would feel uncomfortable about it.
Well, there are already Korea and Siam to counterbalance the Japanese.
 
Maybe Korea would be part of it, but I don't think siam would be part of the response. It's because siam is literally too far off for ming China to exert influence over.
Still, China can use Siam's interest around Malaya and the Gulf of Thailand, as they won't want to see it too dominated by the Japanese either. It easily extends to checking Japan at Indochina and the South China Sea.
 
Still, China can use Siam's interest around Malaya and the Gulf of Thailand, as they won't want to see it too dominated by the Japanese either. It easily extends to checking Japan at Indochina and the South China Sea.
Hmm maybe it would work in the future but Japan's only at Luzon at this point, and I think Johore won't be such a pushover considering the amount of players present in the region (Dutch, English, Japan, Siam).
 
Hmm maybe it would work in the future but Japan's only at Luzon at this point, and I think Johore won't be such a pushover considering the amount of players present in the region (Dutch, English, Japan, Siam).
granted, though say – aside from Siam – there's also the much more closer Captain-Generalcy of the Philippines that China can consider in balancing the Little Chinas surrounding it.
 
granted, though say – aside from Siam – there's also the much more closer Captain-Generalcy of the Philippines that China can consider in balancing the Little Chinas surrounding it.
Yeah Spain is a good option for China even though they'd be seen as the same as the Dutch and Portugese which doesn't seem like a good working relationship lmao.
 
Yeah Spain is a good option for China even though they'd be seen as the same as the Dutch and Portugese which doesn't seem like a good working relationship lmao.
Well, the Dragon Throne doesn't have much choice in regards to the South, and the memories of Portuguese Macau are now fast receding in favour of Japan's practical dominance of the immediate seas surrounding it.
 
Well, the Dragon Throne doesn't have much choice in regards to the South, and the memories of Portuguese Macau are now fast receding in favour of Japan's practical dominance of the immediate seas surrounding it.
True, but I'm talking about China being generally prideful would be detrimental to the relationship between them and any european power.
 
Would there even really be a clear conservative vs liberal split for Joseon or even the Ming? Mind you I think anyone talking about the 'need' to 'modernize' really needs to understand that by this point China, Korea, and even Japan really weren't behind or lacking in anything to the Europeans, save maybe ocean going ships for Japan, who otherwise wouldn't had the best of navies. But also they didn't 'need' them except for maybe the possibility of trade The Europeans only really became dominant by the late 1700's and beyond. The Ming and Joseon had extensive gunpowder weapons and even with the weapons Japan got from the Portuguese, it was less the weapons themselves and how they managed to be adopted for their circumstances. What the Ming and Joseon really need is not 'modernization' but more a stable political situation with which to develop with. Although the troubles of governments that can really suffer if the monarch doesn't give a damn and factionalism are really tough to go account for.


I only just go back into this from this update idiotic as it is. Why is the Oda following one of the parts of the Tokugawa that make the least sense for it? Why is there a system of Daimyo from blood relations to outsiders when The Oda unified Japan under their control in a far less precipitous manner? Like I know OTL Nobunaga did place some of his sons as heirs to others and install some of his retainers in new conquest but why a one to one of the Tokugawa System when the Tokugawa had to come to power with the assent of an alliance of various clans with a position vastly far from the capital? That and Ieyasu took the steps to punish some of the main clans that had gone against him after Sekigahara because his position was tenuous.

Now I do get that a heavily decentralized state like Japan is going to have issue if it's military is largely decentralized to the point any local lord can raise their own military forces, even a state that should be in a stronger position than the Tokugawa's. Yes it might be a system that has to be fully reigned in by a bloody conflict, but why is it being done by a state that does not have the anywhere near the same foundational issues of the Tokugawa, but is still being dressed up like the Tokugawa? I did give the 1630 map a look, it's amazing considering the work that had to be put in and must have been a pain to go do. What did you use as a base if you don't me asking.

Well, the Chinese can say that it has entirely delegated its naval duties to its tributaries, and that it is very well within their right to have a say on how the balance of power will be decided with it.

I don't think the Ming could or would do that. The Ming had issue with a crisis pirate crisis just 60 years ago, from their own merchants it would be out there for the Ming just outsource all naval duties, assuming locals do not take it into their own hands.
 
Would there even really be a clear conservative vs liberal split for Joseon or even the Ming? Mind you I think anyone talking about the 'need' to 'modernize' really needs to understand that by this point China, Korea, and even Japan really weren't behind or lacking in anything to the Europeans, save maybe ocean going ships for Japan, who otherwise wouldn't had the best of navies. But also they didn't 'need' them except for maybe the possibility of trade The Europeans only really became dominant by the late 1700's and beyond. The Ming and Joseon had extensive gunpowder weapons and even with the weapons Japan got from the Portuguese, it was less the weapons themselves and how they managed to be adopted for their circumstances. What the Ming and Joseon really need is not 'modernization' but more a stable political situation with which to develop with. Although the troubles of governments that can really suffer if the monarch doesn't give a damn and factionalism are really tough to go account for.


I only just go back into this from this update idiotic as it is. Why is the Oda following one of the parts of the Tokugawa that make the least sense for it? Why is there a system of Daimyo from blood relations to outsiders when The Oda unified Japan under their control in a far less precipitous manner? Like I know OTL Nobunaga did place some of his sons as heirs to others and install some of his retainers in new conquest but why a one to one of the Tokugawa System when the Tokugawa had to come to power with the assent of an alliance of various clans with a position vastly far from the capital? That and Ieyasu took the steps to punish some of the main clans that had gone against him after Sekigahara because his position was tenuous.

Now I do get that a heavily decentralized state like Japan is going to have issue if it's military is largely decentralized to the point any local lord can raise their own military forces, even a state that should be in a stronger position than the Tokugawa's. Yes it might be a system that has to be fully reigned in by a bloody conflict, but why is it being done by a state that does not have the anywhere near the same foundational issues of the Tokugawa, but is still being dressed up like the Tokugawa? I did give the 1630 map a look, it's amazing considering the work that had to be put in and must have been a pain to go do. What did you use as a base if you don't me asking.



I don't think the Ming could or would do that. The Ming had issue with a crisis pirate crisis just 60 years ago, from their own merchants it would be out there for the Ming just outsource all naval duties, assuming locals do not take it into their own hands.
I will say that 1. Westernization as we think of it is just not a thing because eventually ITTL certain Eastern influences and ideas will travel to Europe and impact it in various ways (Sun Tzu’s Art of War definitely going to be translated much much earlier for example), and 2. Modernization is more technological advancements in certain ways like guns and ships rather than how we conceive of it as IOTL.

In regards to the comparison between the Oda and Tokugawa political systems, while the Tokugawa were militarily in a weaker position they had the prestige of winning at Sekigahara against a hated enemy. In contrast, in 1582-1583, most of Kyushu, much of the Kanto region, and all of Oshu moved towards submission voluntarily as they saw the writing on the wall and didn’t want to be obliterated. As a result, clans like the Hojo and Shimazu transitioned to the Azuchi Period without being reduced or defeated in battle and thus completely retained their military capacity. While Nobunaga having done much of the heavy lifting early meant that a stronger central government would be established compared to OTL, he also had to include the tozama daimyo in the government to not only include their interests but to dissuade reprisal.

The fudai-tozama divide was just something that existed in every daimyo clan itself and would’ve continued on in some form regardless of how Japan was united, although it’s not as large because they can participate in the Sangi-shu although were largely excluded from bureaucratic positions.

My intent is not to dress up the Azuchi government completely like the Tokugawa because in reality, Azuchi is much stronger than Edo ever was, as can be seen with the Oda’s naval power and greater involvement overseas. However, what hasn’t changed didn’t change as even if theoretically the Oda could get away with it from our point of view, I don’t believe that the Oda would’ve thought like that because the only world they know is the one they lived in, ITTL specifically.

The Ming does have a navy and contributes to why currently Japan will not go to war with the Ming, especially after finishing up another war.
 
Chapter 54: The Peace of Prague and Braganza’s Banner

Chapter 54: The Peace of Prague and Braganza’s Banner


The Battle of Jankau together with the capitulation of Elector Maximilian I of Bavaria sealed Vienna’s fate as it became clear that any further fighting would only delay the inevitable. The zealous Emperor Ferdinand II von Habsburg displayed his intent to fight on but was ultimately persuaded by his son Ferdinand Ernst to enter peace negotiations with the Protestant coalition. Negotiators from both sides met in Prague, similar to how Bavaria and Sweden had gathered in Munich, with the noticeable physical absence of the French as mediators at Prague. However, through their communications with Saxony and Brandenburg-Prussia, Cardinal Richelieu would significantly influence talks in Prague.

In Prague itself, Gustavus Adolphus’ wish for a modified imperial structure with guaranteed protections for German Protestants and his own territorial ambitions to the north [1] became the foundation of what would eventually become the Peace of Prague. The full reinstatement of the Peace of Augsburg and the revocation of the 1629 Edict of Restitution was immediately agreed to, with rulers able to choose between Catholicism, Lutheranism, or Calvinism. The ius reformandi clause would also be repealed, permitting subjects to follow any denomination regardless of their ruler’s region in a limited fashion. On territorial matters, the division of the duchy of Julich-Cleves-Berg between Brandenburg and the Count Palatine of Neuberg. Additionally, the Protestant side successfully pushed for the detachment of Silesia from the Bohemian Crown, establishing independent Lutheran-majority duchies in Lower Silesia and Upper Silesia, with John Christian ruling the former and his younger brother George Rudolf ruling the latter. Saxony also permanently gained Upper and Lower Lusatia from Bohemia, which it had occupied in 1623 during the Bohemian Revolt. Pomerania, however, would see a divide between the Swedish and the German Protestants. Gustavus Adolphus sought to annex all of Pomerania in addition to Bremen, Wismar, and Verden into Sweden. However, Cardinal Richelieu, concerned about Sweden’s seemingly unchecked rise to power, worked behind the scenes and encouraged Saxony to back Brandenburg’s claim on Eastern Pomerania. The Swedish subsequently conceded, although this little dispute nevertheless created long-term friction between Sweden and the German Protestant powers and weakened the prospects of a long-term Franco-Swedish alliance. Meanwhile, in Munich, Maximilian I of Bavaria agreed to give up the entire Palatinate, with the late Frederick V’s son Prince Charles Louis becoming its new elector [2]. Finally, Ferdinand II agreed to stay out of Spain’s wars with the Netherlands and France despite the Dutch remaining a part of the HRE. The collective treaties in Munich and Prague were finalized and agreed to by all parties on June 24th, 1634, becoming known as the Peace of Prague with France and Sweden acting as its guarantors and ending what would become referred to by future historians as the Imperial Liberties’ War [3].​

MGo88FQ7L9CvmVaBqxyRMzCGtBuLTz4-KgN7_UxZm4FcneYfalgcS1ibHD8J8G2hOR2St1aJuGNRg_nrdYodcW9yALi64A0xDInhJKLfrxLtLdXTjQUWy_8skjdgTVRpcfAETmtHVfPTjIgF0--Bj_E


HRE, 1635 (New Silesian duchies borders in black) [4]

Amidst the conclusion of the war, the conflict between the Iberian Union and the Franco-Dutch coalition continued. In Lorraine and Franche-Comte, French armies were repulsed by the armies of Charles IV, Duke of Lorraine, and the Duke of Leganes, sent southwards by the Cardinal-Infante. The French would be unable to invest more sources on these fronts as in the spring of 1634, Cardinal-Infante Ferdinand decided to launch an offensive towards Paris despite the wishes of his brother the king and the Count-Duke of Olivares to focus on the Netherlands. He gathered an army of 25,000 at Mons before crossing the frontier and quickly taking the strategic fortresses of Le Catelet and La Capelle. Ferdinand marched across the Somme and all the way to Corbie, another strategic fortress he would subsequently capture. Louis XIII, who had returned to Paris in the face of this invasion, recalled Henri, the Prince of Conde, from Franche-Comte and began to gather a new army to counter the Army of Flanders. News of this was enough for Ferdinand, already feeling pressure from Madrid to finish off the Dutch, to retreat back to Cambrai. Although the French ultimately recovered most Spanish gains in northern France, Ferdinand’s offensive weakened French strength on other fronts for an entire year.

Spanish success prevented the Spanish Road from being broken and critically preserved the supply line between the Duchy of Milan and the Spanish Netherlands. This would allow the Spanish Crown to subsequently send more troops from the Iberian Peninsula and Italy up north. In response to French setbacks in Lorraine and Franche-Comte, Cardinal Richelieu persuaded the Duke of Savoy, Victor Amadeo I, to launch an offensive into Milan in the summer of 1634 in order to cut off the Low Countries completely from Naples. Charles de Crequy and a French army of 7,500 would be sent to Savoy to bolster the Savoyard duke’s army of 10,000, the combined army subsequently beginning their offensive in May. The Franco-Savoyard force would cross the Ticino River and meet a Spanish army of 18,000 led by the Duke of Feria at Tornavento, an area between the towns of Oleggio and Lonate Pozzolo. The battle commenced on July 22nd, lasting several days and to be defined by the Spanish phrase, “sin arbol, y con falta de agua” (treeless, and lacking water), describing the hot, humid heathland the clash took place at. Ultimately, rounds of cavalry charges, infantry sorties, and trench warfare, concluded in a stalemate that saw the retreat of both the Spanish and the Franco-Savoyard armies from Tornavento.​

XDPbpieFm7ygdmp_E6Ou6bwSzb1UBiJuWweNTszkciyusoX9hxDeLnu5TAb3w9bb0RGzsaqB75DmgLpvfM_NPHByWDk1BKu9QOLpEINrU4o0czGyIV6ikgh8uqX6vGcGav2AS1LhOZXtVn89np5ULow


Sketch of the 1634 Battle of Tornavento​

Both sides were evenly matched by this point and any little variable could change the wartime balance of power. It would turn out that events to the far east would tip the scales, for by now news of the Iberian defeat against the Dutch-Japanese alliance had reached Europe. While the news flared the emotions of the Army of Flanders and intensified their hatred towards the Dutch Republic, anti-Madrid riots would break out in Lisbon and many Portuguese nobles and burghers were distraught and enraged at what they saw as Madrid’s failure. No longer trusting the fate of Portugal and its colonial empire in the hands of the Spanish Habsburgs, a group of them, known to history as the “Forty Conspirators” , decided to take back their kingdom. On April 1st, 1635, they coordinated the assassination of the Secretary of State of Portugal, Filipe de Mesquita, and acclaimed John, the Duke of Braganza and a male-line descendant of King John I of Portugal through the latter’s illegitimate son Afonso, as John IV, the new king of Portugal. This coup immediately received the support of the people, and with this event the Portuguese Restoration War had started. Spain now contended with a new front within its own borders.​

CK-VQCaE1G1dBxe9EOe_7BTcx1BdYs4bFN9eiFVs8Sh_SxEjHAQc5WbzlDovkx37XA1r-hc1Fm60JGknGikqfR91j2YLShGyeTwERDRGHIB2U-Jtn7yPDDRjLK1c_xyhfa4FMPLhouaKCb_dExhWVBk


The Acclamation of the King John IV, painted by Veloso Salgado in 1908​

[1]: Based on what Gustavus Adolphus proposed to the Catholic League in 1632 IOTL and ITTL.

[2]: Bavaria does not become an electorate ITTL.

[3]: Official name of the Thirty Years War ITTL.

[4]: Two other differences I would like to point out is that ITTL, the Swiss Confederation and the Dutch Republic remain part of the HRE despite what you see on the map.
 
Last edited:
Top