Naval battles that never happened

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I was matching up battleships and the idea popped into my mind to make it into a thread. Here were some of the naval battles that I think would be very interesting:

Sovietsky Soyuz-class battleship vs. Bismarck or Vittorio Veneto
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovietsky_Soyuz_class_battleship

USS Montana vs. Yamato
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_class_battleship

N3-class battleship vs. Yamato
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N3_class_battleship

Lion-class battleship vs. USS Iowa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_class_battleship

H-class battleship (1939) vs. USS Montana or Yamato
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_class_battleship_(1939)

Any ideas? How would these purely hypothetical naval battles turn out? Are there any naval battles you'd like to see?

Edit:

This monster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_class_battleship_(1944) vs. all four Iowa-class battleships:eek:
 
An Iowa - one Iowa - against a Yamato would be a good match it itself. The Iowas had the world's best armor-piercing shells at the time, so even with Yamato's bigger guns the Iowa's shells were about as effective, and the Iowa could fire at three times the speed of the Yamato.

The H class would have outclassed all the British battleships save HMS Vanguard, and that woulda been a tough call. The KGVs have great protection but are too slow, and the H class has a helluva range. Iowa was first placed in service in the Atlantic, it and Massachusetts acting as bait to try and draw Tirpitz out to fight. (That never happened, of course).

If we're looking at big naval battles in general, how about Japan and South Korea against China, circa 1990s? Size advantage to China, tech advantage to Japan and South Korea.
 
Few duels

There are very few duels in naval combat in the modern age, at least among capital ships. In almost every case, they are travelling in bunches, or at least with escorts. Some navies are more inclined to have single ships running around than others--World War II Germany comes to mind, since the mission was raiding, which can require the enemy to spread his forces thin also. But, in the Pacific, the story was almost always multi-ship actions, except, once again, raiders--ie submarines.

The ships mentioned are all interesting ships, and I could envision some actions that would be similar to duels if the weather was BAD, so the destroyers and aircraft were not in play.

If you're looking at comparing the merits of the various ships, I'd be looking at them in the context they were intended to opperate in.

As for a naval battle I'd like to see, there's a few. Early in the Great War, Admiral von Ingenohl came close to encountering a portion of the Grand Fleet with almost the entire Royal Navy. The results could have thrown the entire course of the war off track. Alternatively, right after HMS Audacious was mined, the British margin of superiority was very slim--it would have been an interesting fight if the Germans had chosen to offer battle, especially if every capital ship they had was in working order.

One point with raiding ships--the raider has to escape with minimal damage, since there's usually no repair facilities available
 
Another WI, as postulated by DK Brown, would be an alternate Battle of the Denmark Straits between the Bismarck and a G-3 Battlecruiser.
 
IJN gets the decisive battle it wants and the Combined Fleet faces down the US Pacific Fleet at gun range in '42? IIRC by that time the Americans had made good most of their Pearl losses and gotten some more flight decks.
 

Sargon

Donor
Monthly Donor
An Iowa - one Iowa - against a Yamato would be a good match it itself. The Iowas had the world's best armor-piercing shells at the time, so even with Yamato's bigger guns the Iowa's shells were about as effective, and the Iowa could fire at three times the speed of the Yamato.

Sources please?


Sargon
 
and the Iowa could fire at three times the speed of the Yamato.

Bullshit. The 18.1/45 and the 16/50 both fire 2 rounds a minute. IJN fire control was a sad, sad thing, however, so effective speed for the Iowa may be triple that of the Yamato.
 
The H-44 was obscene, but compared to today's aircraft carriers it is just big. I want to know what the Germans would have eventually done with aircraft carriers.

I picture it to be like a giant nuclear powered Knock Nevis.
 
I want to know what the Germans would have eventually done with aircraft carriers.

Well they had two planned and one, the Graf Zeppelin, was laid down but due to interference from Goering, who didn't want a naval air arm diminishing his influence,among other things, its completion was prevented. The other was not laid down IIRC and had no name although naval leaders were considering Peter Strasser.

My guess is that these would be sent out as raiders and perhaps to provide air support when German forces reach the Baltic states and conquer those from the USSR. They would be useless in a stand-up fight against the Royal Navy since the RN would still outnumber the Kriegsmarine by far (although I imagine that said raiding carriers will get a cruiser escort of some kind like a modern carrier group).
 

The Sandman

Banned
The IJN hits Pearl relatively lightly with the carrier strike, designating the port facilities (drydocks, fuel depots, ammo dumps, any C&C locations they know about) as their main targets. The Pacific Fleet itself is basically ignored.

After launching this strike, the Combined Fleet heads west, towards Wake and then the Marianas, in the hopes of drawing the American battlefleet out of the harbor and into the open ocean. As the Pacific Fleet heads west, Japanese submarines start taking up position behind it for their part in the operation.

Finally, somewhere between Guam and Wake, or preferably between Guam and the Philippines, the Combined Fleet turns to face the Pacific Fleet. Except that the carriers from the PH striking force have been reinforced with literally everything the Japanese have that isn't critically needed elsewhere.

During the day of the battle, the Japanese carriers launch their strike on the American fleet. Primary targets for the first wave would be the American carriers and any oilers that were brought along; once those are gone, the remaining capital ships become the targets of any further Japanese airstrikes during the day. The main Japanese gunline then moves in for a night action against the damaged American fleet.

The carrier strikes start coming in again at dawn of the next day, focusing on hitting any ships not damaged in the previous phases of the battle as opposed to finishing off cripples. That job is why the Japanese submarines have been taking up positions between the American fleet and Pearl. To try to make sure that the remnants of the Pacific Fleet have to run the gauntlet, the IJN carriers will be shadowing the US force from the north and south, forcing them to dash east past the submarines.

End result of this plan, if it works, is that the bulk of the US Pacific Fleet is sunk in the deep ocean, where the ships can't be raised; furthermore, even if the Japanese do attempt to save whatever survivors they can, the USN will have taken thousands of casualties for no perceivable gain and aren't going to be getting any replacements for the lost ships for the better part of a year. To say nothing of replacing the lost sailors and officers.

Figure that the best chance of the Japanese achieving this is that the initial strikes leave Halsey as the acting CO for the Pacific Fleet; given some of his OTL actions, he seems to most likely to aggressively charge after the IJN and stumble right into this trap.
 
I wouldn't mind seeing a more modern naval battle; like an Iowa class battleship refit taking on the Kirov in a long-range missile duel.
 
I wouldn't mind seeing a more modern naval battle; like an Iowa class battleship refit taking on the Kirov in a long-range missile duel.

That mighta been interesting, actually. The Kirov carries the monstrous P-700 missiles, but it would need them to go through the armor on an Iowa. The Iowa carries Harpoons and Tomahawks (both of which can be used for anti-ship duties) as well as its big guns.
 
The IJN hits Pearl relatively lightly...


Sandman,

Interesting scenario, but it depends on Japan scrapping all of her decades-long war planning and the US ignoring decades of war gaming.

The IJN generally and the Kido Butai especially were very tightly scheduled for the first months of the war. The navy was undertaking or covering operations across the whole of the western Pacific ranging from Wake to Brunei to Burma. One of Yamamoto's hardest tasks in planning the Pearl operation was finding both the assets for the attack and the time that they could be spared.

On the US side, while Plan Orange may have been shelved, the USN had still learned a great deal from the wargames and staff work associated with that plan. Nimitz asserted after the war that the only thing that caught the Navy by surprise, the only thing that hadn't shown up in a pre-war wargame, was Japan's use of kamikazes.


Bill
 

The Sandman

Banned
Sandman,

Interesting scenario, but it depends on Japan scrapping all of her decades-long war planning and the US ignoring decades of war gaming.

The IJN generally and the Kido Butai especially were very tightly scheduled for the first months of the war. The navy was undertaking or covering operations across the whole of the western Pacific ranging from Wake to Brunei to Burma. One of Yamamoto's hardest tasks in planning the Pearl operation was finding both the assets for the attack and the time that they could be spared.

On the US side, while Plan Orange may have been shelved, the USN had still learned a great deal from the wargames and staff work associated with that plan. Nimitz asserted after the war that the only thing that caught the Navy by surprise, the only thing that hadn't shown up in a pre-war wargame, was Japan's use of kamikazes.

I'm figuring that what it requires (admittedly ASB) is better Japanese planning and strategic thinking in the years leading up to the war. They have to realize that the only way they can actually get enough time to consolidate their new holdings is to obliterate the US Pacific Fleet, both its crewmen and its ships. Pearl wasn't really very effective at either, given that all they managed to do was scuttle a few battleships in a shallow harbor where they could be refloated and put back into service (with the exception of the Arizona, of course).

Compared to killing PacFleet, everything else is lower priority. And once the Pacific Fleet is gone, then the IJN can go about its business in the East Indies relatively unmolested. So they rearrange their schedules accordingly.
 
Gents,

NHBL's point about the rarity of mano a mano ship duels after the Age of Sail is a valid one. And yes, we needn't hear about all the exceptions, they simply prove the rule that major units rarely, if ever, deploy alone. Bismarck isn't going to encounter New Jersey on some sunny North Atlantic morning perfectly suited for a gun duel without either vessel having escorts and without aircraft being involved somehow.

A naval battle, as opposed to a "dream duel", is going to involve a number of details and the devil is in those details.

That being said, here's a short list of interesting naval battles that never happened:

American Civil War: The USN forces Charleston harbor and triggers one of the largest ironclad clashes to date. The Confederacy maintained a Charleston Defense Flotilla that consisted of as many as four casemate ironclads and dozens of contact-torpedo launches behind extensive torpedo (mine) fields and other obstructions.

Med in 1898: If Fashoda went "hot", both the French and UK Med fleets had very detailed war plans aimed specifically at each other. Such a campaign would see an "Old School/New School" clash as France's juene ecole torpedo boats and "storm of shells" met Britain's pre-dreadnoughts.

Canaries in 1898: In the Spanish-American War and after the Cuban campaign wound down, the US began planning an assault on the Canary Islands with the goal of seizing a coaling base that could support further naval campaign along Spain's coastline. Not all of Spain's navy had been sunk off Manila or Santiago, one ship in particular, the battleship Pelayo, was thought to among the best afloat, and the USN would be the one's far from home this time.

Sea of Japan 1905: During the 1940 Battle of the Yellow Sea, two very lucky shell hits on the Russian flagship Tsesarevich killed Admiral Vitgeft and killed or wounded all of his command staff just as darkness was falling. The Russian fleet then abandoned its attempted breakout and returned to Port Arthur, something that had seemed a near certainty until the shells hit. If Vitgeft had not been killed, the fleet would easily broke contact with the Japanese and steamed on to Vladivostok to await reinforcements from Europe.

Japan would then have been forced into a much harder blockade of a more distant harbor and the European reinforcements led by Rozhestvensky would not have been the desperate, send-them-all, grab bag of the OTL. Eventually, sometime in 1905 the Japanese fleet and reinforced Russian fleet would meet to determine who would control the Sea of Japan and the supply lines feeding the Japanese armies in Manchuria.

The Scarborough Raid: We've two possibilities at work in this one raid. Room 40 meant the RN knew about the planned raid almost as soon as the Germans did, but the usual C3I problems the RN suffered throughout the war meant that Hipper's battlecruisers escaped untouched. Making matters worse, the RN came within a twenty minutes of finding its 2nd Battle squadron under the guns of the entire High Seas Fleet.

A few tweaks to Beatty, Beatty's utterly worthless signals officer, or the 2nd Battle squadron commander and complete moron Warrender could have resulted in the destruction of Hipper. (Warrender's force actually had Hipper's light cruiser scouting force in sight and failed to open fire because Warrender had not received orders to do so!)

A few tweaks to von Ingenohl, the German C-in-C, would have mousetrapped both Warrender's 2nd Battle squadron. It wasn't as if the situation was confused either. Many German officers on the spot, Scheer was among them, realized that a golden opportunity was presenting itself and were livid when von Ingenohl turned away.

San Bernardino Strait: If Halsey hadn't sulked for a few hours over what he mistakenly perceived as a slight and what was in fact filler added to a message to make enemy decoding more difficult, he would have detached Lee and the 3rd Fleet's fast battleship force early enough to intercept Kurita and the IJN's Central Force before it could withdraw through San Bernardino Strait.

Kurita would have had 4 battleships, including Yamato, 6 heavy cruisers, and the usual mixed escort force of light cruisers and destroyers. Lee could have as many as 6 battleships of the Iowa, North Carolina, and South Dakota classes, as many as 4 heavy cruisers, and a larger number of escorts.

Thanks to several odd circumstances; like Halsey's carriers still chasing Ozawa's bait, the Japanese having so few carrier air crews left, and the Taffy groups off Samar still recovering from Kurita's earlier attack, this potential San Bernardino Strait battle would have had involved few aircraft.

Falklands 1982: When HMS Conqueror sank ARA Belgrano with two WW2 vintage torpedoes, that old cruiser was the southern part of a three pronged Argentine naval operation aimed at the RN task force. The sinking caused the other two Argentine forces, a center force consisting of the carrier Veinticinco de Mayo plus escorts and a northern force consisting of two SSM-armed destroyers, to withdraw back to base.

Of course, questions still surround just whether or how well the center Argentine carrier and northern missile boat forces was shadowed by Britain's SSNs. However, if those SSNs had been somehow given the slip, a very interesting battle could have happened.


Bill
 
I'm figuring that what it requires (admittedly ASB) is better Japanese planning and strategic thinking in the years leading up to the war.


Sandman,

What you described already was essentially the IJN warplan: Attrit the USN as it advances across the Pacific.

In fact, the Japanese had planned it such detail and for so long that they actually built their navy to meet the specific requirements of the plan. That tunnel vision goes a long way to explaining many seeming oddities in Japanese naval design and doctrine.

Your suggestion simply adds some bait and speeds up the process. It also depends on the US commanders - men who were well aware of the Japanese pre-war plans and had spent years gaming responses to them - acting like complete f*cking idiots.

That's one of those devilish details I mention earlier.

Sure, Halsey lunged north after Ozawa during the Leyte campaign, uncovering San Bernardino Strait, and putting the Leyte landings in peril. But Halsey did so in an entirely different context than he, or any other US commander, would be facing after "Aid Raid - Pearl Harbor".


Bill
 
The MN Richelieu and Jean Bart destroying the KM Tirpitz and Bismark.
That would be fun.

And realistic. The Richeleu was definately the best European BB built at the time.

The Kiat said:
I wouldn't mind seeing a more modern naval battle; like an Iowa class battleship refit taking on the Kirov in a long-range missile duel.
Easy victory for the Kirov.

The Iowa has only the relatively ineffective Phalanx 20 mm CIW to destroy the 20 incoming heavy fast sea skimming Granits. On the other hand, the Iowa can only fire 16 Harpoons, which are subsonic, smaller and fly higher. The Kirov has potent air defences, with 96 SAMs based on the S-300 system and highly capable Kashtan CIWs equiped with both missiles and 30 mm guns.

That's without taking into account the massive range advantage of the Kirov's missiles BTW.

Againt a P-700 Granit, that is 7,000 kg (including a massive 750 kg warhead), travelling at mach 2.5, no amount of armour can save a ship. More so because Soviet anti-ship missiles can perform a 'pop-up' terminal attack move, which means its going to penetrate the much lighter deck armour instead of the side hull.
 
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