Napoleon does not invade Spain: what happens to Latin America?

RousseauX

Donor
Historically the French deposition of the Bourbons from Spain was a flashpoint which ultimately caused the Latin American wars of independence to break out. What if Napoleon just didn't invade for whatever reason? The same complaints the Creole colonial elites had about the centralizing Bourbon reforms and not having free trade and what not are all still there, but without a collapse of legitimacy in the Metropole how long would Spain be able to hold on to those colonies?
 
Historically the French deposition of the Bourbons from Spain was a flashpoint which ultimately caused the Latin American wars of independence to break out. What if Napoleon just didn't invade for whatever reason? The same complaints the Creole colonial elites had about the centralizing Bourbon reforms and not having free trade and what not are all still there, but without a collapse of legitimacy in the Metropole how long would Spain be able to hold on to those colonies?
probably because the independent cortes dont form.
 
Ferdinand VII probably manage to mess things with his stupidity. Or then incomnpetent politicians during reign of Isabella II.
Well, if there is no independence movements, there is not so much to mess up in the first place. He might never get the chance to overturn Salic law, nor would be able to antagonize Spanish liberals (to the extent of OTL).
 
Brazilian independance would be royaly screwed,it would take decades to be reality,if at all! The possibility of balkanization is almosr certain!
 
Obviously, much depends on the new outcome of the Napoleon Wars. Massive changes to the European order will change the world. For simplicity sake, if we assume an outcome that more or less are similar to OTL, aside from the completely different outcome in Spain and Portugal (I suppose the Portugal invasion could go on, with the POD of it doesn't then immediately engulf Spain.).

The question of the viceroyalties cannot be answered without first figuring out what Spain's next course was. Do they remain allied to France, making them vulnerable in the colonial sphere? Switch sides (which they almost did at one point) at a propitious moment? Does Wellington head off to Venezuela as originally planned until the Peninsular War broke out? How does he fare?

Mostly, I think the empire stays loyal through the mess if somehow Spain can manage to muddle their way through until France is defeated. Long term depends on how Spain is doing. If the ripples off the POD allow Spain to muddle through without too much revolution/strife/civil war, then the Spanish empire can chug along. The colonial sphere is likely stable, but with rising discontent. Sooner or later there'll be crisis, but hard to predict when.
 
The same complaints the Creole colonial elites had about the centralizing
The collapse will be partial. The revolution in the viceroyalty of La Plata, for example, occurred due to the fact that the Spanish were not capable of protecting the region. So we're going to have some riots occurring because of this. Now other viceroyalties will remain loyal. I tend to think that new Spain and perhaps the viceroyalty of Peru remain loyal (except Chile). With the rest of the Viceroyalties becoming very unstable. The longer the Napoleonic Wars last, the weaker Spain's control in the region will be.
 
Without the invasion of Portugal,the portuguese royal family doesn't flee to Brazil,without them,no unified Brazil is really possible. Unless you meant to keep the french invasion of Portugal,than yes,this would be very close to OTL.
 
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Without the invasion of Portugal,the portuguese royal family doesn't flee to Brazil,without them,no unified Brazil is really possible. Unless you meant to keep the french invasion of Portugal,than yes,this would be very close to OTL.
Brazil would simply remain part of the Portuguese Empire
 
Without the invasion of Portugal,the portuguese royal family doesn't flee to Brazil,without them,no unified Brazil is really possible. Unless you meant to keep the french invasion of Portugal,than yes,this would be very close to OTL.
The invasion of Portugal took place by Spain and France. France only carried out a coup d'état in Spain a year later. So if France doesn't try to strike a blow to Spain. Spain will continue to occupy Portugal.
 
Concerning Portugal, the economic center of gravity was moving towards Brazil by the late 1700s. The Tiradentes revolt put a lot of people in Lisbon in alarm. I need to check my sources, but if I recall correctly, the British were pushing to move the Portuguese court to Brazil even before Napoleon’s invasion, as way of keeping Brazil firmly in their control (through Portugal). After all, Brazil is much larger and richer than Portugal. So, they might move there if Brazil revolts again.

Spanish America is an entirely different affair. It’s divided in four Viceroyalties with their own set of challenges. New Spain and Peru were built on top of native empires, and unlike what the mainstream media tries to portray, the Spanish didn’t come here, wiped out everyone and started fresh, they integrated the native structures including the nobility, into Spanish, or more specifically, Castilian peerage. For the common people, life went on without much change during 300 years. There were even people as late as the 1850s in some remote areas in Mexico that still held allegiance to the King of Spain and stashed their share of the Quinto Real waiting to be collected by the Real Hacienda.

In my opinion, New Spain and Peru can be held almost indefinitely or at least well into the 1800s if and this is a big if, Spain is able to placate or bribe the disgruntled viceregal elite (the nobility and the merchants). They did the same with the native nobility in the 1500s, I don’t see how this is very different. These are the people that are stirring up trouble there and have the means to fund any revolt. No Napoleonic invasion would be keeping the status quo, which means the New Spanish and Peruvian are resentful of Spain because they are losing money (mostly on the opportunity cost of not being able to trade with the world). There are other minor grievances on the preferential treatment of Iberian born Spaniards, but if you want a royal commission, all you had to do is buy it, and the nobility and merchants of both Viceroyalties were extremely rich, even by European standards. It’s the lower tier of nobles and merchants that are upset about it.

Revolution is not born of some universal ideal; it is the result of someone with money, influence or awareness being mistreated by those in power, and in the course of human history, only a minority has had money, power or awareness. So, you need not to buy off everyone, only a few to keep things quiet.

New Granada and Rio de la Plata are different, mainly because they were not heavily populated when the Spanish came, and were economically weak, and in the case of La Plata, also very distant. Support of the Empire was low there, mainly because the feudal structures were not as entrenched, and their elites felt very mistreated because they were more geared towards mercantile activities than land based wealth (mining). You’ll end up with a Bolivar eventually. Spanish authorities in the early 1800s were very incompetent starting from the top – Carlos IV and his son Fernando. They’ll send armies and keep the coast, but the interior is impossible to control due to the hostile population and immense territory. They’ll bleed Spain dry and upset New Spain and Peru. Colombia and Argentina will win their freedom after a bloody war, like the US, with British support. I just don’t see the status quo holding there, particularly in La Plata, where smuggling was out of control. Any attempt to stop it will start a revolt, because again, those in power there are not going to stand being ruined by some idiot in Madrid. Want to upset anyone into action? Just mess with their purse, and you’ll see how quickly they react and turn against you.

The changes are obvious in hindsight, it’s not that the Empire can’t be maintained, it’s the people in charge in Spain at the time that make it really hard, if not outright impossible. Reform and any chance to have Spain keep its empire mostly intact in the 1800s died with Carlos III in 1788.
 
Maybe the revolution removes the Braganzas earlier due to a lack of Braganzas in America.
Maybe, but everything will depend on how the Napoleonic wars will turn out. If Napoleon wins or partially remains in power. OTL maximum extension of France+Italy+part of Germany and Spain (that's a partial victory). The Portuguese crown only returned to Portugal with the defeat of Napoleon. Without this, the Portuguese empire will revolve around Brazil now.
as way of keeping Brazil firmly in their control (through Portugal). After all, Brazil is much larger and richer than Portugal. So, they might move there if Brazil revolts again.
Brazil was the colony that produced the most gold in America, and all this gold ended up in English banks. Interestingly, I would say that Brazil was a Portuguese colony with its economy managed by the English. Because most of the colony's wealth ended up in London.
 
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Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
Concerning Portugal, the economic center of gravity was moving towards Brazil by the late 1700s. The Tiradentes revolt put a lot of people in Lisbon in alarm. I need to check my sources, but if I recall correctly, the British were pushing to move the Portuguese court to Brazil even before Napoleon’s invasion, as way of keeping Brazil firmly in their control (through Portugal). After all, Brazil is much larger and richer than Portugal. So, they might move there if Brazil revolts again.
So in practice due to demographics a Brazilian Empire?
Spanish America is an entirely different affair. It’s divided in four Viceroyalties with their own set of challenges. New Spain and Peru were built on top of native empires, and unlike what the mainstream media tries to portray, the Spanish didn’t come here, wiped out everyone and started fresh, they integrated the native structures including the nobility, into Spanish, or more specifically, Castilian peerage. For the common people, life went on without much change during 300 years. There were even people as late as the 1850s in some remote areas in Mexico that still held allegiance to the King of Spain and stashed their share of the Quinto Real waiting to be collected by the Real Hacienda.

In my opinion, New Spain and Peru can be held almost indefinitely or at least well into the 1800s if and this is a big if, Spain is able to placate or bribe the disgruntled viceregal elite (the nobility and the merchants). They did the same with the native nobility in the 1500s, I don’t see how this is very different. These are the people that are stirring up trouble there and have the means to fund any revolt. No Napoleonic invasion would be keeping the status quo, which means the New Spanish and Peruvian are resentful of Spain because they are losing money (mostly on the opportunity cost of not being able to trade with the world). There are other minor grievances on the preferential treatment of Iberian born Spaniards, but if you want a royal commission, all you had to do is buy it, and the nobility and merchants of both Viceroyalties were extremely rich, even by European standards. It’s the lower tier of nobles and merchants that are upset about it.

Revolution is not born of some universal ideal; it is the result of someone with money, influence or awareness being mistreated by those in power, and in the course of human history, only a minority has had money, power or awareness. So, you need not to buy off everyone, only a few to keep things quiet.

New Granada and Rio de la Plata are different, mainly because they were not heavily populated when the Spanish came, and were economically weak, and in the case of La Plata, also very distant. Support of the Empire was low there, mainly because the feudal structures were not as entrenched, and their elites felt very mistreated because they were more geared towards mercantile activities than land based wealth (mining). You’ll end up with a Bolivar eventually. Spanish authorities in the early 1800s were very incompetent starting from the top – Carlos IV and his son Fernando. They’ll send armies and keep the coast, but the interior is impossible to control due to the hostile population and immense territory. They’ll bleed Spain dry and upset New Spain and Peru. Colombia and Argentina will win their freedom after a bloody war, like the US, with British support. I just don’t see the status quo holding there, particularly in La Plata, where smuggling was out of control. Any attempt to stop it will start a revolt, because again, those in power there are not going to stand being ruined by some idiot in Madrid. Want to upset anyone into action? Just mess with their purse, and you’ll see how quickly they react and turn against you.
Even without a *US it seems like the British could back revolts in New Granada and la Plata
 
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iddt3

Donor
The moment they both realize that they can protect themselves without spain, the elites will rebel.
Or that Spain can't protect them. And a Spain that remains allied to Napoleon rather than a conquest is one whose empire is an even more attractive target.
 
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