More successful Raid on Alexandria

[weasel_airlift]

A very easy change: Rather than sling the charges under Valiant and QE, the frogmen attach them to the inner propeller struts. This should be extremely damaging to the ships, at the least destroying the rudders, shafts and screws, and possibly blowing the shaft seals and flooding engine rooms. I would suspect the ships will actually settle to the bottom from the stern, so no pretending that the ships are intact, and frightening the Italian navy.

OTL the ships were out of action for 6 months and a year. I suspect this damage will take at least 18 months to put right. What would be the effect on the Mediterranean front?

Bonus question: Rather than mining the tanker, the third team puts their charge on the floating dry dock in the harbor. Would the charge be strong enough to inconvenience the dock?

 

[weasel_airlift]

Would such damage be enough to make the ships a constructive total loss, perhaps?

 

[lionhead]

I suspect operations by the Royal Navy will be delayed as OTL whilst reinforcements will be brought from England to replace the Valiant and Queen Elizabeth. Both ship will probably be lifted and towed out to get repaired, these ships were needed and had to have extensive damage to be considderd a total loss. Any damage to the drydock can be repaired.

Italian navy won't change tactics though, its still a fleet in being and won't start conducting operations suddenly, especially with the American navy joining in perhaps sooner and with a bigger role. However, overall not much will change if the British can free up ships to replace losses, which i think they can.

 

[weasel_airlift]

I suspect operations by the Royal Navy will be delayed as OTL whilst reinforcements will be brought from England to replace the Valiant and Queen Elizabeth. Both ship will probably be lifted and towed out to get repaired, these ships were needed and had to have extensive damage to be considderd a total loss. Any damage to the drydock can be repaired.

Italian navy won't change tactics though, its still a fleet in being and won't start conducting operations suddenly, especially with the American navy joining in perhaps sooner and with a bigger role. However, overall not much will change if the British can free up ships to replace losses, which i think they can.

I figured the drydock could be repaired, though I was curious as to what degree of damage would be done by a torpedo charge.

My thought was that with the drydock out of action for let us say 9 months, Valiant and QE would be patched and towed to the UK for repairs. Obviously, they would be in a protected convoy and that would be an opportunity for the Italians to strike, though you may be right that they still wouldn't strike. As per British ships that would be stationed in the Med, a quick look says:

KGV: Available, but needed to guard against Tirpitz breaking out
DoY: Still shaking down
Renown: Available
Nelson: Under repair until April 1942
Rodney: In refit until March/April 1942
Warspite: In refit until Feb/March 1942
Malaya: Available
Resolution: In refit until Feb/March 1942
The last three R's are available, but slowly moving towards Singapore

 

[michael1]

No real change. If Valiant and QE were raised they wouldn't be towed through the Med before (at the very earliest) North Africa was in allied hands. In reality during 1942 neither ship played any role in the European theatre, so there is no need to adjust the deployment of any other ship , although this would leave the East Indies fleet with one less battleship from August 1942 until early 1943. It might also lead to slightly less battleship fire support for Husky and Avalanche in 1943, and a weaker Indies surface fleet in 1944, but I don't think any of these are going to be critical.

 

[weasel_airlift]

No real change. If Valiant and QE were raised they wouldn't be towed through the Med before (at the very earliest) North Africa was in allied hands. In reality during 1942 neither ship played any role in the European theatre, so there is no need to adjust the deployment of any other ship , although this would leave the East Indies fleet with one less battleship from August 1942 until early 1943. It might also lead to slightly less battleship fire support for Husky and Avalanche in 1943, and a weaker Indies surface fleet in 1944, but I don't think any of these are going to be critical.

Well, the ships were under repair for much of 1942, so they couldn't participate.

From your description, they would essentially be written off. They can't be repaired in Alexandria, and can't be towed for repairs until the Med is secured, and once they get there they will still need 18-24 months of repairs. Maybe they could be offered to the Soviet Union as slightly used battleships with minor cosmetic issues.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Both ships would be 'sunk' in harbour - so unless the damage caused a magazine explosion which is unlikely as both were effectivley modern rebuilds then they are both Raised - Fixed up as much as possible and towed to Durban for a more extensive refit - sent the long way to the USA for a full refit - pretty much what happened to them OTL but it might take longer if the damage is more extensive.

 

[weasel_airlift]

Both ships would be 'sunk' in harbour - so unless the damage caused a magazine explosion which is unlikely as both were effectivley modern rebuilds then they are both Raised - Fixed up as much as possible and towed to Durban for a more extensive refit - sent the long way to the USA for a full refit - pretty much what happened to them OTL but it might take longer if the damage is more extensive.

Right, I figured they wouldn't be beyond repair, but they might be beyond feasible repair. Sunk at the end of December, let's say two months getting patched up enough to be towed, another two months actually getting towed to Durban (I estimate 45 days sailing at 5 knots; however, I'd be inclined to add a stop or two along the way to ensure everything is shipshape) six months in Durban being patched up enough to cross the Atlantic, and then a year in the yards in the US, plus two weeks shaking down after that. Thus, they probably aren't ready until late 1944 at best, and early 1945 seems more likely.

 

[lionhead]

I figured the drydock could be repaired, though I was curious as to what degree of damage would be done by a torpedo charge.

My thought was that with the drydock out of action for let us say 9 months, Valiant and QE would be patched and towed to the UK for repairs. Obviously, they would be in a protected convoy and that would be an opportunity for the Italians to strike, though you may be right that they still wouldn't strike. As per British ships that would be stationed in the Med, a quick look says:

KGV: Available, but needed to guard against Tirpitz breaking out
DoY: Still shaking down
Renown: Available
Nelson: Under repair until April 1942
Rodney: In refit until March/April 1942
Warspite: In refit until Feb/March 1942
Malaya: Available
Resolution: In refit until Feb/March 1942
The last three R's are available, but slowly moving towards Singapore

No idea about the possible damage to the drydock.

The ships will be towed in protected convoys, but not really big ones and the Italians would have to know it exist for them to try an intercept. Its unlikely they will try risk their ships for a small convoy.

If they replace the ships to reinforce the meds i think they might send the HMS Malaya as the HMS Renown was temporary flagship of the home fleet till April 1942 and needed for her better speed in the Atlantic. But as someone pointed out the 2 ships damaged didn't serve a purpose OTL and weren't replaced OTL either so they might just continue without those 2 ships. It balances the forces against the axis slightly, but not enough to make a real difference.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Right, I figured they wouldn't be beyond repair, but they might be beyond feasible repair. Sunk at the end of December, let's say two months getting patched up enough to be towed, another two months actually getting towed to Durban (I estimate 45 days sailing at 5 knots; however, I'd be inclined to add a stop or two along the way to ensure everything is shipshape) six months in Durban being patched up enough to cross the Atlantic, and then a year in the yards in the US, plus two weeks shaking down after that. Thus, they probably aren't ready until late 1944 at best, and early 1945 seems more likely.

Well I think the thing to do is look at vessels historically sunk in harbour during the war and how long it took to get them back to service.

Littorio was quite heavily damaged during the Taranto raid hit with 3 torpedos and took 3 months in Dry dock to fix (11th Dec - 11th March)
Caio Duilio was damaged by a single torpedo during the Taranto attack - refloated in January (delayed due to Littorio taking precedence) and returned to service in May - 6 months
Conte di Cavour was the least important of the 3 and was never fully repaired - I only include her as attempts were being made to return her to service as Italy surrendered.

The 3 sunk and returned to service US Battleships are as follows

West Virginia: hit by two bombs, seven torpedoes, sunk; returned to service July 1944. 2.5 years
California: hit by two bombs, two torpedoes, sunk; returned to service January 1944. Just over 2 years
Nevada: hit by six bombs, one torpedo, beached; returned to service October 1942. Less than 1 year

Operation Source (X sub attack on Tirpitz)

Tirpitz was heavily damaged in the sept 1943 attack and was out of action for 7 months

So given that the damage is intensive but not nearly as extensive as some of the examples provided above - I don't think that the repairs would take as long as you suggest.

 

[weasel_airlift]

So given that the damage is intensive but not nearly as extensive as some of the examples provided above - I don't think that the repairs would take as long as you suggest.

On the original raid, though Valiant was in dock for about six months, and QE for over a year. This damage should be much more severe, so I figured 18 months plus in dock. Resolution took a single torpedo hit and was in the yards for over a year, and Nelson took a single mine and was out for about 7 months.

That said, I may absolutely be wrong on my times, but I figured that the shafts, screws and rudders would be beyond repair, and her shaft seals would be blown in and her engine rooms flooded. The 6 months in Durban would likely include a wait to receive at least two new shafts and screws, since I doubt there are spares available.

 

[lionhead]

The 3 sunk and returned to service US Battleships are as follows

West Virginia: hit by two bombs, seven torpedoes, sunk; returned to service July 1944. 2.5 years
California: hit by two bombs, two torpedoes, sunk; returned to service January 1944. Just over 2 years
Nevada: hit by six bombs, one torpedo, beached; returned to service October 1942. Less than 1 year

Yeah, but what the Americans did was almost supernatural. West Viginia steamed away from Pearl harbor on its own power in April 1943, with only temporary repairs of course. Thats less than a year after it was refloated, thats quite impressive with 6 holes in its side. California same thing only 3 months after being refloated. Besides further repairs these ships were all overhauled and modernized, thats a good part of the time it took. I don't think that would happen to the QE and Valiant even if damaged more extensively.

I actually was assuming the ships had to be towed, but i got no idea how many drydocks there are in Alexandria at the time. If there is only one and that one is damaged they have to be towed and that increases the time significantly.

 

[weasel_airlift]

Yeah, but what the Americans did was almost supernatural. West Viginia steamed away from Pearl harbor on its own power in April 1943, with only temporary repairs of course. Thats less than a year after it was refloated, thats quite impressive with 6 holes in its side. California same thing only 3 months after being refloated. Besides further repairs these ships were all overhauled and modernized, thats a good part of the time it took. I don't think that would happen to the QE and Valiant even if damaged more extensively.

Right. I've read in multiple places that for any other country, West Virginia would have been a total loss. The US was the only one that could afford to pour that degree of money into a twenty year old ship with that sort of damage. Nevada's damage was actually quite light, though it would have been spectacular to see. The torpedo belt held, though it leaked, three bombs did non-serious damage, one caused impressive, but light damage, and the last caused a gasoline fire. The bomb damage probably could have been repaired at a crane pier in less than a month. She beached because the fires kept the crew from containing flooding

I actually was assuming the ships had to be towed, but i got no idea how many drydocks there are in Alexandria at the time. If there is only one and that one is damaged they have to be towed and that increases the time significantly.

I don't think there was another dry dock in Alexandria that can accept a QE.

 

[lionhead]

Right. I've read in multiple places that for any other country, West Virginia would have been a total loss. The US was the only one that could afford to pour that degree of money into a twenty year old ship with that sort of damage. Nevada's damage was actually quite light, though it would have been spectacular to see. The torpedo belt held, though it leaked, three bombs did non-serious damage, one caused impressive, but light damage, and the last caused a gasoline fire. The bomb damage probably could have been repaired at a crane pier in less than a month. She beached because the fires kept the crew from containing flooding



I don't think there was another dry dock in Alexandria that can accept a QE.

hm, yes. What i read in OTL both Valiant and QE were repaired in Alexandria first, Valiant by a mobile floating drydock. So if the main drydock was damaged, one of the two ships could still be repaired and move out on its own power.