List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage II

isabella

Nova_Philomena said:
Prompt: Elizabeth of York born male (Don't worry, she doesn't end up as a Prince in the Tower). Also, Yorkist England (They Defeat the Tudor Army), sort of as a rehash to my Lancastrian Tree (Sorry it's sorta the same as OTL) also Isabel (Daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella) gives up her rights to Spain upon her marriage.

Edward V of England (b. 1466 d. 1508) m. Isabel of Aragon (b. 1470 d. 1503)
  1. Edward of York, Prince of Wales (b. 1486 d. 1501) [1]
  2. Elizabeth of York (b. 1489 d. 1541) [2] m. James IV of Scotland (b. 1473 d. 1513)
  3. Richard III of England (b. 1491 d. 1547) [3] m. Eleanor of Austria (b. 1498 d. 1536) and Anne Boleyn (b. 1501 d. 1536) and Jane Seymour (b. 1509 d. 1539) and Anne of Cleves (b. 1515 d. 1557) and Katheryn Howard (b. 1523 d. 1542) and Catherine Parr (b. 1512 d. 1548)
  4. Cecily of York (b. 1492 d. 1535) [4] m. Francis I of France (b. 1491 d. 1547)
  5. Mary of York (b. 1496 d. 1533) [5] m. Christian II of Denmark (b. 1481 d. 1556)
  6. Edmund of York, Duke of Gloucester (b. 1499 d. 1520) [6] m. Elizabeth Grey (b. 1505 d. 1551)
  7. Katherine of York (b. 1503 d. 1539) [7] m. Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1500 d. 1558) [8]
[1] Named for Edward himself, Edward entertained betrothing his eldest son to his wife's younger sister Catalina, but Edward of York tragically died before the the marriage could possibly be discussed with the Pope to get a dispensation. He would become known as the White Prince.
[2] Named for both Elizabeth Woodville and Isabel of Aragon (Whose name translates to Elizabeth). She would marry James in order to keep the peace between England and Scotland.
[3] OTL Richard III never becomes King and dies fighting on the Yorkist Side for Edward IV meaning the name isn't tainted. He is basically OTL Henry VIII, but he marries Eleanor of Austria first who becomes infertile after the complicated birth of Mary Tudor which leads him to seek divorce from her and marry Anne, the whole story basically continues from there on. He is named for Richard III though.
[4] Claude and Renee are both stillbirths and Francis decides to choose Princess Cecily as a bride, though Isabella of Austria was considered, though he decided against it after realizing the perks of not being at each others throats with England. Cecily is named for Male!Elizabeth's sister Cecily of York.
[5] Named for Maria of Aragon. She marries Christian II of Denmark instead of Isabella (Who replaces Bona Sforza) and Christian keeps Norway and Denmark, though he loses Sweden 2 times during his reign.
[6] Named for Edmund of York, Earl of Rutland. He eventually marries Elizabeth Grey and gains her lands and wealth, but dies during a joust, leaving behind one daughter, Isabel of York, who doesn't inherit her father's Dukedom, but would inherit her mother's lands and would be married to Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey.
[7] Katherine of York was named for both Catherine of Aragon, Katherine Woodville and Catherine of York. Her mother sadly didn't survive the rough birth, but the young Princess did. She was originally considered as a possible bride for Henry II of Navarre and a de facto marriage contract was signed by King Edward with the help of his father-in-law, Ferdinand II of Aragon, but after the untimely deaths of Isabella of Portugal and Beatriz of Portugal, two brides Ferdinand had wanted for his grandson Charles, Ferdinand easily convinced Edward to break the contract and betroth Katherine of York to Charles of Ghent.
[8] Charles still gets Spain even though there is no Iberian Princess to marry.
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Fully ASB. Isabel of Aragon was destined to marry in Portugal since the end of the Castilian war of succession and she would NOT marry elsewhere, unless a very specific set of circumstances happened. If Elizabeth was a boy then you have butterflied any trouble with Edward IV’s succession as Richard of Gloucester could NEVER claim regency for a full adult Prince of Wales. ATL Edward would be already married to some princess around his age like Kunigunde of Austria (but also Anne of France would be a possible match for him). Plus you are forgetting who all Elizabeth’s siblings would made far different matches from OTL as Cecily was engaged to James IV of Scotland while Anne to Philip of Burgundy. Plus you have the OTL engagements of Elizabeth’s younger brothers: OTL Edward (here Richard, Duke of York) was engaged to Anne of Brittany and OTL Richard (here George or Edmund, likely of Bedford) had married the heiress Anne Mowbray, Countess of Norfolk (and if her father died as OTL she would be again a daughter-in-law of Edward). Henry II of Navarre would NOT get any granddaughter of Ferdinand of Aragon as bride and he had lost the majority of his kingdom to Ferdinand of Aragon.
 

Nova_Philomena

isabella said:
Fully ASB. Isabel of Aragon was destined to marry in Portugal since the end of the Castilian war of succession and she would NOT marry elsewhere, unless a very specific set of circumstances happened. If Elizabeth was a boy then you have butterflied any trouble with Edward IV’s succession as Richard of Gloucester could NEVER claim regency for a full adult Prince of Wales. ATL Edward would be already married to some princess around his age like Kunigunde of Austria (but also Anne of France would be a possible match for him). Plus you are forgetting who all Elizabeth’s siblings would made far different matches from OTL as Cecily was engaged to James IV of Scotland while Anne to Philip of Burgundy. Plus you have the OTL engagements of Elizabeth’s younger brothers: OTL Edward (here Richard, Duke of York) was engaged to Anne of Brittany and OTL Richard (here George or Edmund, likely of Bedford) had married the heiress Anne Mowbray, Countess of Norfolk (and if her father died as OTL she would be again a daughter-in-law of Edward). Henry II of Navarre would NOT get any granddaughter of Ferdinand of Aragon as bride and he had lost the majority of his kingdom to Ferdinand of Aragon.
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Afonso, Prince of Portugal dies young and there is no Manuel of Portugal ITL
 
FalconHonour

FalconHonour

isabella said:
Far too late/early. Henry started to lose interest in the annulment after Louis XII died, and then Catherine became pregnant with Mary so the question was set aside for another decade

Burgundy will go to Philip not to John (who likely will end in the Church).
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Not if Mary is Stillborn...
 

Nova_Philomena

Prompt: Claude of France and Renee are born Male.

Louis XIII of France (b. 1499 d. 1524) [1] m. Mary of England (b. 1496 d. 1533)
  1. Marie of France (b. 1515 d. 1520) [2]
  2. Anne of France (b. 1516 d. 1518)
  3. Louis XIV of France (b. 1516 d. 1565) m. Maria of Portugal (b. 1521 d. 1577)
  4. Henri de Valois (b. 1517 d. 1520)
  5. Elisabeth of France (b. 1519 d. 1561) m. James V of Scotland (b. 1512 d. 1545)
  6. Stillborn Son (b. 1520 d. 1520)
  7. Marguerite of France (b. 1522 d. 1587)
  8. Stillborn Son (b. 1523 d. 1523)
  9. Catherine of France (b. 1525 d. 1590) m. Francis IV, Duke of Brittany (b. 1527 d. 1585) [3]
[1] Still as frail as OTL Claude.
[2] Betrothed to Charles I of Spain but died young at age five.
[3] Posthumous Baby

Francis III, Duke of Brittany (b. 1510 d. 1574) m. Margaret of Scotland (b. 1512 d. 1579) [1]
  1. Francis IV, Duke of Brittany (b. 1527 d. 1585) m. Catherine of France (b 1525 d. 1590)
  2. Louis of Brittany (b. 1529 d. 1531)
  3. Margaret of Brittany (b. 1530 d. 1601) m. Emmanuel Philibert, Duke of Savoy (b. 1528 d. 1580)
  4. Jeanne of Brittany (b. 1531 d. 1543)
[1] Daughter of Margaret Tudor and James IV Born 1512 isn't a miscarriage.
 

Nova_Philomena

Dragonboy said:
@Nova_Philomena Suggestion: Henry II first son with eleanor William survives to succeed him
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William III of England (b. 1153 d. 1200) m. Mafalda of Portugal (b. 1153 d. 1202)
  1. William IV of England (b. 1171 d. 1224) m. Agnes of France (b. 1171 d. 1240)
  2. Eleanor of England (b. 1173 d. 1180)
  3. Matilda of England (b. 1174 d. 1206) m. Otto IV, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1175 d. 1218)
  4. Richard I, Count of Anjou (b. 1175 d. 1200) m. Constance of Aragon (b. 1179 d. 1222)
 
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isabella

Nova_Philomena said:
Prompt: Claude of France and Renee are born Male.

Louis XIII of France (b. 1499 d. 1524) [1] m. Mary of England (b. 1496 d. 1533)
  1. Marie of France (b. 1515 d. 1520) [2]
  2. Anne of France (b. 1516 d. 1518)
  3. Louis XIV of France (b. 1516 d. 1565) m. Maria of Portugal (b. 1521 d. 1577)
  4. Henri de Valois (b. 1517 d. 1520)
  5. Elisabeth of France (b. 1519 d. 1561) m. James V of Scotland (b. 1512 d. 1545)
  6. Stillborn Son (b. 1520 d. 1520)
  7. Marguerite of France (b. 1522 d. 1587)
  8. Stillborn Son (b. 1523 d. 1523)
  9. Catherine of France (b. 1525 d. 1590) m. Francis IV, Duke of Brittany (b. 1527 d. 1585) [3]
[1] Still as frail as OTL Claude.
[2] Betrothed to Charles I of Spain but died young at age five.
[3] Posthumous Baby

Francis III, Duke of Brittany (b. 1510 d. 1574) m. Margaret of Scotland (b. 1512 d. 1579) [1]
  1. Francis IV, Duke of Brittany (b. 1527 d. 1585) m. Catherine of France (b 1525 d. 1590)
  2. Louis of Brittany (b. 1529 d. 1531)
  3. Margaret of Brittany (b. 1530 d. 1601) m. Emmanuel Philibert, Duke of Savoy (b. 1528 d. 1580)
  4. Jeanne of Brittany (b. 1531 d. 1543)
[1] Daughter of Margaret Tudor and James IV Born 1512 isn't a miscarriage.
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Eleanor of Austria is a far likelier match for Louis XIII (Charles V would marry Mary Tudor)
 

Nova_Philomena

isabella said:
Eleanor of Austria is a far likelier match for Louis XIII (Charles V would marry Mary Tudor)
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Why do you think so? Charles would probably marry his peninsular peach Isabel to oblige with the nobles requests to marry an Iberian Princess to ease the rebellions he faced in Spain, and it would be a good time, especially with the end of the War of the Roses, for the Dauphin of France to marry an English Princess.
 

Dragonboy

Nova_Philomena said:
William III of England (b. 1153 d. 1200) m. Mafalda of Portugal (b. 1153 d. 1202)
  1. William IV of England (b. 1171 d. 1224) m. Agnes of France (b. 1171 d. 1240)
  2. Eleanor of England (b. 1173 d. 1180)
  3. Matilda of England (b. 1174 d. 1206) m. Ferdinand III of Castile (b. 1199 d. 1252)
  4. Richard I, Count of Anjou (b. 1175 d. 1200) m. Constance of Aragon (b. 1179 d. 1222)
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Ferdinand would only be 7 when he marries....
 

isabella

Nova_Philomena said:
Why do you think so? Charles would probably marry his peninsular peach Isabel to oblige with the nobles requests to marry an Iberian Princess to ease the rebellions he faced in Spain, and it would be a good time, especially with the end of the War of the Roses, for the Dauphin of France to marry an English Princess.
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Because in OTL Eleanor was briefly engaged to a short lived son of Louis XII and Anne of Brittany while Mary Tudor was Charles V’s fiancée for many years well before he inherited Spain (plus in OTL he was not interested in marrying Isabel as was engaged to single digits princesses who were better matches than her, at least from his Burgundian POV, until he was tired to wait and Isabel was his best option for marrying now)
 

Nova_Philomena

isabella said:
Because in OTL Eleanor was briefly engaged to a short lived son of Louis XII and Anne of Brittany while Mary Tudor was Charles V’s fiancée for many years well before he inherited Spain (plus in OTL he was not interested in marrying Isabel as was engaged to single digits princesses who were better matches than her, at least from his Burgundian POV, until he was tired to wait and Isabel was his best option for marrying now)
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so Charles of Ghent doesn't get Spain?
 

isabella

Nova_Philomena said:
so Charles of Ghent doesn't get Spain?
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Yes, but he would likely be already married to Mary Tudor before getting Spain (as he should have OTL, if not for Ferdinand II’s interferences and Louis XII’s need for an heir. Here Louis XII has two sons and no daughter so Ferdinand can not arrange a match between his heir and Renee for sealing peace and menace to leave Aragon to Ferdinand jr if Charles married his English fiancée instead of accepting this other match, who in the end was never finalized as Louis married Mary and then died)
 

Nova_Philomena

Dragonboy said:
Better.

Another tree: All the children of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York live to old age.
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My fav.

Henry VII of England (b. 1457 d. 1509) m. Elizabeth of York (b. 1466 d. 1503)
  1. Arthur I of England (b. 1486 d. 1540) m. Catherine of Aragon (b. 1485 d. 1538)
  2. Margaret Tudor (b. 1489 d. 1541) m. James IV of Scotland (b. 1473 d. 1513)
  3. Henry Tudor, Duke of York (b. 1491 d. 1547) m. Elizabeth Grey (b. 1505 d. 1574)
  4. Elizabeth Tudor (b. 1492 d. 1528) m. Charles IX of France (b. 1492 d. 1545) [1]
  5. Mary Tudor (b. 1496 d. 1533) m. Manuel I of Portugal (b. 1469 d. 1521)
  6. Katherine Tudor (b. 1503 d. 1539) m. Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1500 d. 1558)
[1] Charles Orlando, Dauphin of France, the son of Anne of Brittany and Charles VIII of France doesn't die.
 

Nova_Philomena

isabella said:
Yes, but he would likely be already married to Mary Tudor before getting Spain (as he should have OTL, if not for Ferdinand II’s interferences and Louis XII’s need for an heir. Here Louis XII has two sons and no daughter so Ferdinand can not arrange a match between his heir and Renee for sealing peace and menace to leave Aragon to Ferdinand jr if Charles married his English fiancée instead of accepting this other match, who in the end was never finalized as Louis married Mary and then died)
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I thought Spain was really keen on sending Eleanor to Portugal because Portugal was a bigger ally and higher priority to Spain than England and definitely more than France, maybe Isabella of Austria, but not Eleanor.
 

Dragonboy

Nova_Philomena said:
My fav.

Henry VII of England (b. 1457 d. 1509) m. Elizabeth of York (b. 1466 d. 1503)
  1. Arthur I of England (b. 1486 d. 1540) m. Catherine of Aragon (b. 1485 d. 1538)
  2. Margaret Tudor (b. 1489 d. 1541) m. James IV of Scotland (b. 1473 d. 1513)
  3. Henry Tudor, Duke of York (b. 1491 d. 1547) m. Elizabeth Grey (b. 1505 d. 1574)
  4. Elizabeth Tudor (b. 1492 d. 1528) m. Charles IX of France (b. 1492 d. 1545) [1]
  5. Mary Tudor (b. 1496 d. 1533) m. Manuel I of Portugal (b. 1469 d. 1521)
  6. Katherine Tudor (b. 1503 d. 1539) m. Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1500 d. 1558)
[1] Charles Orlando, Dauphin of France, the son of Anne of Brittany and Charles VIII of France doesn't die.
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Where's edmund?
 
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