Irish Vikings

[Vixagoras]

It's an idea I have toyed with for awhile for my own timeline Jesus the Simple: A World Without Christians, which IS still ongoing, I just haven't posted anything in awhile cuz I have been working on more of an outline for it. Given that Ireland is going to be more Romanized in my timeline, I'm not sure the idea would work, however. When I think of Viking Age Scandinavia, I tend to think of feuding petty-kings who can't make it at home and so decide to raid elsewhere. Maybe that's not the right way to think about it...


But yeah... what do you guys think might prompt the Irish to go mad and begin pillaging the ports and rivers of Western Europe? Assuming they can figure out the sea-faring technology for it, that is.

 

[Archduke]

You need to increase the amount of Irish people to promote anything resembling the Viking Age in Ireland. This gives more impetus to leave Ireland and venture elsewhere and also just gives you more Irshmen to mount such adventures across Europe.

 

[Vixagoras]

You need to increase the amount of Irish people to promote anything resembling the Viking Age in Ireland. This gives more impetus to leave Ireland and venture elsewhere and also just gives you more Irshmen to mount such adventures across Europe.

Duh. Lol

But more people doesn't necessarily mean a good impetus unless the population is too much to handle for the agricultural methods of the time. That's a tall order, in my mind at least. Enough of the island is arable to sustain such a population increase without too much trouble, and many Irish people were cattle herders anyways, and you CAN graze cattle across much of the island.

 

[MosesNotProphet]

As archduke stated, the Viking age started because due to development of farming technology, scandinavia was becoming too populous, which gave the impetus to go around raiding, you need something to happen to increase the population A LOT.
Also it is important for them to have an sailing tradition, perhaps increase in number of fishermen, otherwise there will not be too outward raiding overseas from the emerald isle, and the chieftains will stick to raiding each other until the population stabilizes.

 

[A Most Sovereign Lady]

Irish raiders existed, they just tended to stick to raiding the crap out of Britain and Scotland.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

It's an idea I have toyed with for awhile for my own timeline Jesus the Simple: A World Without Christians, which IS still ongoing, I just haven't posted anything in awhile cuz I have been working on more of an outline for it. Given that Ireland is going to be more Romanized in my timeline, I'm not sure the idea would work, however. When I think of Viking Age Scandinavia, I tend to think of feuding petty-kings who can't make it at home and so decide to raid elsewhere. Maybe that's not the right way to think about it...


But yeah... what do you guys think might prompt the Irish to go mad and begin pillaging the ports and rivers of Western Europe? Assuming they can figure out the sea-faring technology for it, that is.

One of the primary issues is the Irish are too busy beating each other over the head to have the time to go out and beat OTHER people over the head. Perhaps if you manage to get an effective High King who can conquer the whole island AND enforces peace between his vassals, then its possible. Nobunaga managed to pull it off with Sengoku Japan.

However, you'd need to find a suitable enough target that you can convince all the different clans to unite in their drunken hatred against, and a strong enough cooperative clan behind the leader so he can stop simmering feuds from ripping an Irish raiding army apart. There also needs to be targets that are worth the cost of going a-Viking (Or whatever the Celts would call it) that are relatively lightly defended. Since you don't have Christianity, then you don't have monasteries, so you somehow have to convince the Irish that its more profitable to raid/intimidate into tribute villages in Wales or Scotland (The first steps to getting to Europe: unlike the Vikings, the Irish have Great Britain in the way and would naturally be their first target) than to operate in Ireland.

 

[MFOM]

As far as I know, in OTL the Irish were seaborne raiders, much of it is lost to history but Irish seaborne raiders made life difficult for Romano-British and the Saxons that came after them, indeed Saint Patrick was famously carried off by Irish raiders, I believe they even raided as far as Gaul, indeed the Scot in Scotland is from a Roman word to denote Irish Pirates. So no it might not be that much of a stretch to have them raid further east

 

[Meshakhad]

One of the primary issues is the Irish are too busy beating each other over the head to have the time to go out and beat OTHER people over the head. Perhaps if you manage to get an effective High King who can conquer the whole island AND enforces peace between his vassals, then its possible. Nobunaga managed to pull it off with Sengoku Japan.

However, you'd need to find a suitable enough target that you can convince all the different clans to unite in their drunken hatred against, and a strong enough cooperative clan behind the leader so he can stop simmering feuds from ripping an Irish raiding army apart. There also needs to be targets that are worth the cost of going a-Viking (Or whatever the Celts would call it) that are relatively lightly defended. Since you don't have Christianity, then you don't have monasteries, so you somehow have to convince the Irish that its more profitable to raid/intimidate into tribute villages in Wales or Scotland (The first steps to getting to Europe: unlike the Vikings, the Irish have Great Britain in the way and would naturally be their first target) than to operate in Ireland.

Well, maybe whatever religion replaces Christianity develops its own monastic tradition. Or just blings out its temples like crazy.

 

[Vixagoras]

As archduke stated, the Viking age started because due to development of farming technology, scandinavia was becoming too populous, which gave the impetus to go around raiding, you need something to happen to increase the population A LOT.
Also it is important for them to have an sailing tradition, perhaps increase in number of fishermen, otherwise there will not be too outward raiding overseas from the emerald isle, and the chieftains will stick to raiding each other until the population stabilizes.

That theory regarding the impetus for the Viking Age is not proven. Although, as I said, I am in agreement that the population needs to increase. However, I'm not sure that you can create that kind of a situation in Ireland the way you could in Scandinavia because of the quality of the land in terms of arability and cattle grazing (the latter being more important than the former).

One of the primary issues is the Irish are too busy beating each other over the head to have the time to go out and beat OTHER people over the head. Perhaps if you manage to get an effective High King who can conquer the whole island AND enforces peace between his vassals, then its possible. Nobunaga managed to pull it off with Sengoku Japan.

However, you'd need to find a suitable enough target that you can convince all the different clans to unite in their drunken hatred against, and a strong enough cooperative clan behind the leader so he can stop simmering feuds from ripping an Irish raiding army apart. There also needs to be targets that are worth the cost of going a-Viking (Or whatever the Celts would call it) that are relatively lightly defended. Since you don't have Christianity, then you don't have monasteries, so you somehow have to convince the Irish that its more profitable to raid/intimidate into tribute villages in Wales or Scotland (The first steps to getting to Europe: unlike the Vikings, the Irish have Great Britain in the way and would naturally be their first target) than to operate in Ireland.

While I don't want to spoil the religious makeup of Europe ITTL's Early Medieval Period, I think I can get away with stating that temples are likely to hold enough wealth to be of interest. That said, I am not entirely sure if the Irish are going to espouse the religion of the continent or not. However, what I can also say, as the groundwork has already been laid for this in my timeline, is that Ireland isn't going to be a bunch of squabbling tribes by the time in question, but a constitutional monarchy that is more or less set up along the lines of the Roman Monarchy in terms of its governmental set up (obviously, the Irish had their own legal theory to go off of). I tend to think of that system as prone to civil war if the Vorina Tovissacon, a sort of Irish version of the senate, can't agree on a king.

 

[MosesNotProphet]

As far as I know, in OTL the Irish were seaborne raiders, much of it is lost to history but Irish seaborne raiders made life difficult for Romano-British and the Saxons that came after them, indeed Saint Patrick was famously carried off by Irish raiders, I believe they even raided as far as Gaul, indeed the Scot in Scotland is from a Roman word to denote Irish Pirates. So no it might not be that much of a stretch to have them raid further east

Didnt know about this, but then, what musy be changed is what caused the raidings to diminish later on, and how can we make them grow in frequency? I stick to the theory that for them to create the trade networks that the norse did, they will need extra population, be it simply a uncontrollable boom or too many people for the land, because i dont seem to be able to find anothe plausible theory.

That theory regarding the impetus for the Viking Age is not proven. Although, as I said, I am in agreement that the population needs to increase. However, I'm not sure that you can create that kind of a situation in Ireland the way you could in Scandinavia because of the quality of the land in terms of arability and cattle grazing (the latter being more important than the former).

If you cannot achieve a population boom, try a population displacement, if your Ireland is going to be romanized, make this romanization displace irish so that they have not choice but to go overseas. Or perhaps you could try a famine, making farmers which could not draw sustenance from the land anymore try to take what they can from anybody they can find.

 

[Vixagoras]

Didnt know about this, but then, what musy be changed is what caused the raidings to diminish later on, and how can we make them grow in frequency? I stick to the theory that for them to create the trade networks that the norse did, they will need extra population, be it simply a uncontrollable boom or too many people for the land, because i dont seem to be able to find anothe plausible theory.

If you cannot achieve a population boom, try a population displacement, if your Ireland is going to be romanized, make this romanization displace irish so that they have not choice but to go overseas. Or perhaps you could try a famine, making farmers which could not draw sustenance from the land anymore try to take what they can from anybody they can find.

More Romanized culturally. The Romans aren't getting their Italian fingers on it. Lol


That said, the Irish, as a proper client to the Roman Vicariate are going to be doing more trading with the mainland ITTL, especially following the unification of the island as a part of a cultural modernization process from the top down. I have toyed with the idea of an early discovery of the Faroe Islands/Iceland and their use as a penal colony by the Romans, given that the Romans will be in control of Scotland for some time as well. The only populations I can think of being displaced in Ireland however, would be the non-Gaelic tribes on the island, which, in the timeline, are composed of a handful of non-Indo-European tribes, some Britains, Celtiberians, and Germanians, who have all immigrated from Europe in the passed 350 years. Although, that would require that they not be assimilated into Irish society, as these tribes seem to have been IOTL.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Wouldn't being more Romanised include an increase in technology, including farming, that would thus cause an increase in technology?

 

[Gortian]

In the late 2nd and for most of the 3rd century AD, there was a large period (over a century) of heavy rainfall throughout the north western Europe. It caused crop failures and led to famine in certain areas. In Ireland it was particularly bad as the bogs swallowed much of the arable land and nothing grows in those acidic damp soils. The difficulty was alleviated somewhat through the trade with Roman Britain and the greater Roman Empire. There was some piracy that developed up until the 5th century as a result.

If you removed these trade links, that would force people into raiding and piracy. If the land in Ireland is useless what point would there be to invade one of the Tuathas if you get even more useless bog land?

 

[Vixagoras]

In the late 2nd and for most of the 3rd century AD, there was a large period (over a century) of heavy rainfall throughout the north western Europe. It caused crop failures and led to famine in certain areas. In Ireland it was particularly bad as the bogs swallowed much of the arable land and nothing grows in those acidic damp soils. The difficulty was alleviated somewhat through the trade with Roman Britain and the greater Roman Empire. There was some piracy that developed up until the 5th century as a result.

If you removed these trade links, that would force people into raiding and piracy. If the land in Ireland is useless what point would there be to invade one of the Tuathas if you get even more useless bog land?

This, combined with a break down in relations with the Romans could definitely be a catalyst. Do you have a source for that? I had never heard about this, and I would love to read up on it.

 

[Gortian]

This, combined with a break down in relations with the Romans could definitely be a catalyst. Do you have a source for that? I had never heard about this, and I would love to read up on it.

Its mostly old notes from stratigraphic research on local Palaeoecology. Its very dull though and full of terrible academic language that feels like swimming through treacle against a current. See below for an example from online:

Radiocarbon dates from peat horizons above and below inorganic units show that phases of aggradation cluster into two distinct periods, the first after 230–790 calibrated (cal.) yr A.D. and the second from 1510 cal. yr A.D. to the present. An additional phase of fan aggradation at one site is dated after 1040–1280 cal. yr A.D. All three phases coincide with episodes of enhanced late Holocene valley-floor alluviation and debris-flow activity from upland Britain. Alluvial fans and debris cones have developed primarily as a result of the resedimentation of late Midlandian (Wisconsin) drift and talus slopes, and mobilization of materials involved flooding, transitional-flow, and debris-flow processes. Pollen analysis of peat horizons interbedded with alluvial-fan and debris-cone sediments indicates that land-use changes were an important factor in lowering the threshold for local slope erosion. Phases of aggradation also coincide with well-documented episodes of climate change, and, hence, fan development is probably a function of both anthropogenic and climatic forcing. A sequence of events may have involved initial slope destabilization due to overgrazing and removal of vegetation that was followed by debris mobilization and fan aggradation during intense rainstorms associated with climate change.

If you can make it through that you will be fine.

This book was written about Irish Environmental archaeology. There is not much available to hand, but I hope it is slightly helpful. Unless you know all the proper terminology and key words to get what you want you will end up wandering about in the dark.