Inspired by the "Ireland invades NI" thread and the documentary to that effect I came to ponder, what would the effect on the troubles be if Ireland had entered WW2 at some point, i.e. maybe a better equipped Irish Army, different Anglo-Irish relations? Would there have been any impact at all?
Ireland in WW2, effect on the Troubles?
- Thread starter trekchu
- Start date
Word is that the Northern Counties were offered as a bargaining chip to bring Ireland into WW2 on the side of the UK and that Eamon de Valera turned it down. If that had happened there would be an united independent Ireland for the first time in centuries. As a consequence if there were any troubles it would look very bizarre to someone from OTL. Strange bedfellows and all, with splits along economic and political lines rather than religion or nationalism.
If Churchill was serious about that offer and if De Valera accepted it then the Unionists would have revolted when the details became known. Dev was their arch bogeyman and there's no way they would have voluntarily accepted his rule even if Ireland stays as a dominion. You could well have seen Stormont declare UDI and become a kind of early Rhodesia.
As to the subject of the thread. Perhaps the shared experience of having fought in the war would lead to a softening of hostilities but not by much. The interesting point of speculation is whether Ireland would have made it's entry into the war conditional on Britain enacting measures to improve the life on Northern Nationalists such as better housing and the reintroduction of PR in NI. Had that happened and there was no need for the NI Civil Rights Movement in the 1960's then it's possible that the Troubles could have been avoided.
As to the subject of the thread. Perhaps the shared experience of having fought in the war would lead to a softening of hostilities but not by much. The interesting point of speculation is whether Ireland would have made it's entry into the war conditional on Britain enacting measures to improve the life on Northern Nationalists such as better housing and the reintroduction of PR in NI. Had that happened and there was no need for the NI Civil Rights Movement in the 1960's then it's possible that the Troubles could have been avoided.
There would have been troubles, much much worse ones than OTL, they would reach the level of an actual insurgancy and break away state.
You'd have a significantly larger, better armed dissenting population and a significantly smaller, weaker government trying to control them. I could very much see the Nazis trying to exploit this with lots of propeganda about the Germanic Brits being better than the celtic Irish. I doubt it would come to much during the war though- but then I doubt the hand over would happen till after.
Ulster would descend into chaos, and during a very crucial time to boot. Not only will the Unionists be *less than keen* but they will also have control of the government, infrastructure, economy and police of Northern Ireland.
I don't know much about the proposed deal but its seems suicidal for Britain to trade Irish Atlantic ports for a possible civil war in the back yard. I doubt Stormont could put up much resistance at first to an Anglo-Irish enforcement of the deal but you'll see the Troubles come thirty years early and on a bloodier scale.
The Germans will certainly try to exploit it, but frankly the use of much needed men and munitions to subdue the province will be a blow to the British war effort in of itself.
I don't know much about the proposed deal but its seems suicidal for Britain to trade Irish Atlantic ports for a possible civil war in the back yard. I doubt Stormont could put up much resistance at first to an Anglo-Irish enforcement of the deal but you'll see the Troubles come thirty years early and on a bloodier scale.
The Germans will certainly try to exploit it, but frankly the use of much needed men and munitions to subdue the province will be a blow to the British war effort in of itself.
As I said, strange bedfellows.
The Unionists reacting badly in the middle of WW2 would cause them to get stomped on, hard. Also any perceived collusion with the Nazis would strip them of whatever support they would have in the UK.
Also the Northern Counties are not monolithic, any move to form a separate country would leave tens of thousands of less than sympathetic people within those borders.
The Unionists reacting badly in the middle of WW2 would cause them to get stomped on, hard. Also any perceived collusion with the Nazis would strip them of whatever support they would have in the UK.
Also the Northern Counties are not monolithic, any move to form a separate country would leave tens of thousands of less than sympathetic people within those borders.
Which is probably why De Valera rejected the offer, the Republic doesnt have the capability to impose order on NI. Britain could do that but as mentioned above diverting thousands of troops away from the war effort, especially at a crucial juncture would have been monumentally stupid as the Nazis and probably the Japanese would have sought to exploit the opportunity. In addition I could see this becoming another version of The Curragh Mutiny as British generals would likely have refused to carry out an order to march on Ulster.
even if the Irish had entered the war, how meaningful would their contribution have been? could they have offered much in the way of military assistance to the UK anyway? it would likely have come down to the material contribution of bases, both naval and air, to combat the U-boats. so would the offer of the north have even been worth the trouble involved?
so imho the UK would have taken advantage of the situation and milked the agreement for all it was worth and then reneged on the deal at the 11th hour and kept the northern counties. and also likely, having had a good look at the irish armed forces, either decided to sell them arms or, if it was politically preferable, left them behind and not even offered anything.
if, however, they had acted as allies and had good relations at the end of the war then they would provide them limited numbers of modern weapons. even iotl they provided modern tanks long after the end of the war to ireland, just without spares or support.
so imho the UK would have taken advantage of the situation and milked the agreement for all it was worth and then reneged on the deal at the 11th hour and kept the northern counties. and also likely, having had a good look at the irish armed forces, either decided to sell them arms or, if it was politically preferable, left them behind and not even offered anything.
if, however, they had acted as allies and had good relations at the end of the war then they would provide them limited numbers of modern weapons. even iotl they provided modern tanks long after the end of the war to ireland, just without spares or support.
Cook
Banned
I keep hearing about this unlikely offer being made and turned down in here, does anyone actually have a reference to it?
I’d say they’d be very easily recognisable, Ulster would be unmanageable from the south without almost full autonomy.
Prior to World War Two the British had an agreement to use air and sea bases in the Irish Free State for the defence of the approaches to the British Isles, something that the Pre-War Government gave up for some bizarre reason.
The request for use of the bases for the protection of the convoys was made during the battle of the Atlantic; those same convoys were after all providing food to the Eire as well, the request was refused, being judged as conflicting with Eire’s neutral stance.
50,000 Irishmren served honourably in HM Forces, thousands more travelled to UK to work in industry (have a read of Angelas Ashes). Ireland was a very poor country cWW2. Economically can offer nowt to the allies BUT it can be used as a staging and training area, for ASW and SAR ops, provide people and yup not much else. Irish units would have had to have been thoroughly integrated back into UK forces OR transfer to the Sceptics.
About the only thing Ireland would have offered would be extending the range of the British in the Atlantic- the Brits could already fly over Ireland but being able to be based there would help quite a bit. The battle of the Atlantic would go a bit easier.
Generally though...nope. Ireland wouldn't offer much.Many, many Irishmen signed up to fight for the British during the war anyway. I doubt the Irish could get away with introducing conscription to fight a British war, getting directly involved in the first place would be politically dangerous enough, so the amount of volunteers wouldn't be all that much higher.
There would be losses from having Ireland involved too. No convenient bordering neutral for Britain...
DeValera dies...
IMVHO, there's a much better chance of some sort of success if Devalera is off the stage completely. Another thing that might bring the Irish Free State into the war would be the existence of an Irish merchant marine--which gets sunk by U-boats in large numbers.
If DeValera is en route to the USA on an Irish shi, and gets sunk, that might work well.
As for why Ireland has a merchant marine, some companies, expecting war, and expecting Ireland to stay out, use Ireland as a flag of convienence.
IMVHO, there's a much better chance of some sort of success if Devalera is off the stage completely. Another thing that might bring the Irish Free State into the war would be the existence of an Irish merchant marine--which gets sunk by U-boats in large numbers.
If DeValera is en route to the USA on an Irish shi, and gets sunk, that might work well.
As for why Ireland has a merchant marine, some companies, expecting war, and expecting Ireland to stay out, use Ireland as a flag of convienence.