Hyenas and dogs
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whitecrow
Banned
http://www.gadling.com/2011/04/19/hyenas-in-harar-a-unique-relationship-between-beast-and-man/
This does not seem to be too different from how wolves were supposedly domesticated.
You have to have a pretty prosperous and stable community before the concept of "pet" arises. Dogs were domesticated as hunting and tracking partners, then as herd tenders. Hyenas are less effective than dogs at both roles.
The core problem is that (as the pictures above illustrate) hyenas are strongly nocturnal. Humans aren't. Activity cycles can be shifted, ours or theirs, but it's an initial barrier that dogs don't have. And what I know of hyenas suggests that making them diurnal would be hard.
The core problem is that (as the pictures above illustrate) hyenas are strongly nocturnal. Humans aren't. Activity cycles can be shifted, ours or theirs, but it's an initial barrier that dogs don't have. And what I know of hyenas suggests that making them diurnal would be hard.
whitecrow
Banned
Early dogs would also keep out other large predatory animals away from the human settlement so there is that. I don't know if "hyenas are less effective as hunters and herders than dogs" (well, obviously they are less effective but modern dogs are a result of thousands of years of selective breeding while modern hyenas are not) but even if this is true a society that had no access to dogs/wolves might go for the next best thing.
Er, aren't wolves most active in early morning/late night too?
Of course, I was referring to ancient ways of domestication, please, don't compare it to modern times, when even killer whales and sharks can be reduced to 'pets'.
http://www.gadling.com/2011/04/19/hyenas-in-harar-a-unique-relationship-between-beast-and-man/
This does not seem to be too different from how wolves were supposedly domesticated.
I bet those Hyenas are only that well behaved because they've learned they can get food off the humans. Hyenas are the kind of animal that, if you had one as a pet, would eat your baby in the middle of the night. They're extremely self-serving animals, despite their pack nature, as opposed to the stronger bonds wolves or dogs form.
Yes, a community with access to hyenas but not dogs might try and make use of hyenas.
The wolves I'm personally familiar with are at a high enough latitude that they don't have the luxury of synching their activity to the sun. They hunt when they're hungry or sense a good opportunity and sleep when they like. I believe they do become relatively nocturnal in more temperate climes, but this actually illustrates the point that dogs are adaptable. Hyenas, by contrast, seem to have a strong instinct to hunt only when it's dark. While it's light out they scavenge, sleep and play but don't work together to bring down prey, and when the sun goes down it can be like a switch was just flipped. That instinct is going to be trouble when trying to domesticate them.
whitecrow
Banned
How are the "modern" techniques used by the the "Hyena Man of Harar" any different from "ancient ways of domestication"? Do you or do you not agree that scientists speculate that wolves were domesticated in pretty much the same way?
Don't think anyone disputes that.
I don't know enough on wolves and hyenas to give a definite answer but I somehow doubt pre-domesticated wolves were any better. Even owners of modern dog breeds that have recent wolf ancestry in the line (e.g: Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs) are warned that these dogs can be unpredictable and dangerous to children and small pets.
So... not unlike cats than?
Well, they would replace dogs where they were, but in areas without hyenas dogs would be used, so not much would change there.
So... not unlike cats than?
Well, they may be more closely related to cats than dogs, but that's irrelevant. Cats are fairly passive though. If cats can get away with doing nothing, they do nothing. But hyenas are relatively lively animals, so its a bit harder to keep them under control. Plus, a hyena bite is a LOT worse than a dog bite. If a dog bites your hand, you usually get some nasty lacerations, whilst a hyena will effortlessly crush every bone in your hand. Their bite force is frankly incredible. IIRC, its the strongest bite (pounds-per-square inch) of any mammal.
Google "hyenas" and "pets", and what do you get?
You will get lots of pics like these, like the Hyena Men of Nigeria:
Oh, look - PET BABOONS!
Frankly, it's true that hyenas (and baboons too) will make for far less than ideal pets, for reasons mentioned before in this thread. But that doesn't seem to stop these guys from keeping these animals as pets.
This is not limited to Africa - I've even watched a part of TV called Fatal Attractions about a case of a guy in Florida actually keeping a spotted hyena as a pet. He did have to give it up to a zoo in Florida, although he would still come to visit his hyena friend - and bond with it in ways like a dog that no zookeeper would dare. Spotted hyenas are the largest and most aggressive species of hyena.
You will get lots of pics like these, like the Hyena Men of Nigeria:
Oh, look - PET BABOONS!
Frankly, it's true that hyenas (and baboons too) will make for far less than ideal pets, for reasons mentioned before in this thread. But that doesn't seem to stop these guys from keeping these animals as pets.
This is not limited to Africa - I've even watched a part of TV called Fatal Attractions about a case of a guy in Florida actually keeping a spotted hyena as a pet. He did have to give it up to a zoo in Florida, although he would still come to visit his hyena friend - and bond with it in ways like a dog that no zookeeper would dare. Spotted hyenas are the largest and most aggressive species of hyena.
whitecrow
Banned
I really don't get this conversation.
Its like asking "What if you had an omelet for breakfast instead of instant cereal?" and you responding with "But raw eggs are disgusting! How can I eat them for breakfast?"
Yes, a dog is safer to be around than a hyena. But dogs are already a finished result of thousands of years of selective breeding ("instant cereal" in the above analogy) while hyenas are an "unprocessed raw substrate" if you will ("raw eggs") that has not been refined through human selection ("the omelet"). Now a wild wolf might not have the bite-force of a spotted hyena but it can tear out your throat just as well. Just as a wild horse can break your skull with a well-placed kick. Just as wild cattle can impale you on its horns. Just as a wild boar can horribly maul you. And yet in all these instances and many others mankind has tamed and domesticated these animals.
Andrew the King
Banned
I think everybody's talking about the wrong kind of hyena.
In fact, striped hyenas are extremely docile and make EXCELLENT pets. They instinctually only eat things that are dead. I know, my parents own one, and we all love her.
The problem is that they have a very, very, VERY high mortality rate when giving birth, and their gestation and maturation is also slower than dogs as well. So economically speaking, they're not a very productive domesticate. The fact that they instinctively scavenge is also a bit of a problem in terms of things like... you know... herding animals.
In fact, striped hyenas are extremely docile and make EXCELLENT pets. They instinctually only eat things that are dead. I know, my parents own one, and we all love her.
The problem is that they have a very, very, VERY high mortality rate when giving birth, and their gestation and maturation is also slower than dogs as well. So economically speaking, they're not a very productive domesticate. The fact that they instinctively scavenge is also a bit of a problem in terms of things like... you know... herding animals.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but surely any animal can be domesticated with enough time and resources.
I speak out of ignorance so if someone has good evidence to correct me please do so, I'm just working on what I feel to be a logical premise.
Compare a modern day small, yappy dog to a wolf. They bear very little resemblance both in size and attitude.
Surely any animal if bred for long enough can produce a domesticate form of some kind? Breeding the animal to maybe smaller, more docile (in the thread example lets say a Hyena is reduced to the size of a Chihuahua).
This nullifies a lot of the danger it possesses (even today there are numerous attacks by more vicious breeds of dog, however the victims are usually only injured with death occurring more commonly among infants who can't defend themselves). No animal is ever completely safe, even domesticated animals can still attack, its more about breeding a version of the animal that can be trained.
Again as was mentioned above, cats are hardly pack animals so you don't need a pack mentality to domesticate an animal, you just need to breed it sufficiently that it adapts to being part of a human society.
I'd perhaps give an exception for certain types of lizards or fish. I have a theory that mammals (and many birds) are easier to deal with because they all typically have a 'mothering' state among females. This makes it easier for them to build bonds with other creatures which can be extended out of their own species. Lizards tend not to be around their young when born therefore do not need an 'empathy' part of the brain required for rearing young.
I could be wrong here but I've never seen clear cut evidence to the contrary. However if such evidence does exist I would be interesting in reading it.
I speak out of ignorance so if someone has good evidence to correct me please do so, I'm just working on what I feel to be a logical premise.
Compare a modern day small, yappy dog to a wolf. They bear very little resemblance both in size and attitude.
Surely any animal if bred for long enough can produce a domesticate form of some kind? Breeding the animal to maybe smaller, more docile (in the thread example lets say a Hyena is reduced to the size of a Chihuahua).
This nullifies a lot of the danger it possesses (even today there are numerous attacks by more vicious breeds of dog, however the victims are usually only injured with death occurring more commonly among infants who can't defend themselves). No animal is ever completely safe, even domesticated animals can still attack, its more about breeding a version of the animal that can be trained.
Again as was mentioned above, cats are hardly pack animals so you don't need a pack mentality to domesticate an animal, you just need to breed it sufficiently that it adapts to being part of a human society.
I'd perhaps give an exception for certain types of lizards or fish. I have a theory that mammals (and many birds) are easier to deal with because they all typically have a 'mothering' state among females. This makes it easier for them to build bonds with other creatures which can be extended out of their own species. Lizards tend not to be around their young when born therefore do not need an 'empathy' part of the brain required for rearing young.
I could be wrong here but I've never seen clear cut evidence to the contrary. However if such evidence does exist I would be interesting in reading it.