hipper
Banned
the Royal Navy gave its destroyers DP guns on the tribals and afterwards
However they considered that high angle guns did not make sense due to the extra weight requirement. Which is why Tribals got 8 4.7's and 4x37mm AA
HMS Invincible
- Thread starter Lord Wyclif
- Start date
the Royal Navy gave its destroyers DP guns on the tribals and afterwards
However they considered that high angle guns did not make sense due to the extra weight requirement. Which is why Tribals got 8 4.7's and 4x37mm AA
Is that the real world or this time line? In the real world first British destroyers with DP guns were the Battle class which did not come into service until the war in Europe was over.
Experience early in the war led to 14 of the British Tribals had the twin 4.7" in X position replaced by a twin 4". The 4 Tribals built in Britain for the Canadians and the Australian built Tribals were completed with the twin 4" in X position. The 4 Tribals built in Canada were built with eight 4" in four twin mountings, but they weren't completed until after the war.
The Javelins, Lightnings and Emergency destroyers that followed the Tribals all had low angle 4.5" or 4.7" guns. The only exceptions was the Emergency destroyer that carried the prototype turret for the Battles and 12 of the early Emergency destroyers that carried single 4" guns which might have been DP. I haven't checked.
What were the opposition doing?
What are the Americans and Japanese going to to with their extra tonnage?
In the real world the USN had 69,000 tons after deducting Lexington and Saratoga. They initially planned to build a quintet of 14,000 ton carriers, but after USS Ranger proved to be unsatisfactory they decided to build a pair of satisfactory 20,000 ton carriers (Yorktown and Enterprise) and a second 14,000 ton carrier USS Wasp.
If Lexington and Saratoga officially displace 33,000 tons each in your version of history they Americans have 94,000 tons left.
In the real world the Japanese were allowed 81,000 tons of aircraft carriers on the 5:5:3 ratio. They used it to convert 2 incomplete captial ships into aircraft carriers and 3 bespoke ships. According to my copy of Jane's Fighting Ships 1939: Kaga and Akagi each displaced 26,900 tons; Ruyjo 7,100 tons; Soryu 10,050 tons; and Hiryu also 10,050 tons. A grand total of 81,000 tons - although the actual tonnage was considerably more. Ruyjo had to be counted in the 81,000 tons because the 10,000 ton loophole in the Washington Treaty was closed in the 1930 London Treaty. I haven't counted Hosho because she would have been scrapped when Hiryu was completed.
However, if the British Empire and USA are allowed 160,000 tons each the 5:5:3 ration increases the Japanese limit by 15,000 tons to 96,000 tons. That would allow the Japanese to upgrade Ryujo to a Soryu and still have enough tonnage to build a fourth 10,050 ton carrier.
What are the Americans and Japanese going to to with their extra tonnage?
In the real world the USN had 69,000 tons after deducting Lexington and Saratoga. They initially planned to build a quintet of 14,000 ton carriers, but after USS Ranger proved to be unsatisfactory they decided to build a pair of satisfactory 20,000 ton carriers (Yorktown and Enterprise) and a second 14,000 ton carrier USS Wasp.
If Lexington and Saratoga officially displace 33,000 tons each in your version of history they Americans have 94,000 tons left.
In the real world the Japanese were allowed 81,000 tons of aircraft carriers on the 5:5:3 ratio. They used it to convert 2 incomplete captial ships into aircraft carriers and 3 bespoke ships. According to my copy of Jane's Fighting Ships 1939: Kaga and Akagi each displaced 26,900 tons; Ruyjo 7,100 tons; Soryu 10,050 tons; and Hiryu also 10,050 tons. A grand total of 81,000 tons - although the actual tonnage was considerably more. Ruyjo had to be counted in the 81,000 tons because the 10,000 ton loophole in the Washington Treaty was closed in the 1930 London Treaty. I haven't counted Hosho because she would have been scrapped when Hiryu was completed.
However, if the British Empire and USA are allowed 160,000 tons each the 5:5:3 ration increases the Japanese limit by 15,000 tons to 96,000 tons. That would allow the Japanese to upgrade Ryujo to a Soryu and still have enough tonnage to build a fourth 10,050 ton carrier.
hipper
Banned
All British destroyers including the tribals had dual purpose guns. They had anti aircraft fire control capable of predicting the future target and automatic fuze setting driven by the fire control system.
This is Dual purpose in that the guns were capable of being fired against aircraft
what they did not have was high angle capacity.
The RN calculated that the extra weight involved in making the destroyer capable of firing at a high angle was wasted, and that extra weight was better spent adding automatic AA to destroyers. Which was the experience of all nations in WW2.
Last edited:
Yes they spent a fortune developing the twin 4.7s and then the purse strings where tightened and any further development that may have allowed very high angle fire was stopped.
The issue was first really noticed during the Norway campaign when Destroyers in Fjords had difficulty engaging Stukas etc.
I think Lord Wyclif mentioned that a switch to the 4.5 inch calibre was part of the standardisation of guns. That and all the modern battleships are using the 4.5s. I'd therefore suppose that the 4.5 is getting the money and research that went into developing the 5.25 and the abortive dual purpose mount for the 4.7.
January 1936 brought in an old hero for the post of Foreign Secretary. The government were defeated in Parliament over the Hoare-Laval Plan. Sir Anthony Chamberlain. Both he and the War Secretary Duff Cooper, his under secretary Rodger Keyes along with the newly reappointed Leo Amery as Secretary of State for the Colonies his under secretary Anthony Eden and the Locker-Lampson brothers visited the British forces gathered at HMS Nile during the first week in January. This now extremely powerful group of politicians sail down the Suez Canal along with the Marines of 9 RMLI on board the Invincible for the six day journey to Berbera. For the entire month of January a 'British Pathe' news reel team were with the flotilla. For most of the journey the CAP consisted of four Hawker Ospreys. It wasn't until the final day that the two Seafire squadrons were located flying time.
Wednesday January 15 began with the launch, an hour before dawn of four Seafires, two of which patrolled the airspace around the Invincible and the other pair flew on to Berbera, where they landed at the RAF airstrip west of the town just after sun-up. As these aircraft landed air activity began over at RAF Khormaksar . Six Shorts Singapore aircraft set off to rendezvous with the fleet and collect a troop of parachute trained marines. It was this diay which began the Invincible's immortality with the British public.
Weeks later British cinema goers and then the movie goers in the dominions saw a four minute broadcast of the events on January 15th.
The news reel began simply with the narrator stating the name 'INVINCIBLE' followed by the wording British Red Sea Task Force. The pictures open to Chamberlain standing along with Amery and Eden on the roof of B turret of the newly arrived HMS Rodney. As the scene widens we view the stern on the Valiant guns already turned to port. Rodney's A turrets triple 15" guns rise and slowly traverse to port, all carefully narrated by the commentator. The shots now go the the bow of the Invincible as we see four Seafires launched. Then onto the Vindictive. "On one of Churchill's Commando Carriers, We can observe one of Samuel Whites MLC's being lowered into the waves then a Vickers tank being placed onboard." The narrator continues to describe the boarding of the marines on 9RMLI on their Thorneycroft LCA's. More shots of Seafires being launched under the watchful eyes of Captain Royle and Commander Seymour from the bridge.
Further shots showed Marines parachute unto "key road junctions" followed by the arrival of a convoy in their Morris CS, CDSW trucks and armoured cars. "Seafires from HMS Invincible roar overhead at breakneck speed in support of the marines on the ground" yells the commentator excitedly. What he doesn't inform the public is of the need of the Seafires to refuel at the RAF's improvised airstrip outside Berbera. The newsreel ends with shots of the Vickers Medium tanks dug in at the frontier. Again unrevealed these were the tanks of 11RMLI's strike group which had been deployed mounts previously. "The power of the Royal Navy's strike group, ensures the frontiers of the empire, keeping us all safe in today's troubled days. HMS Invincible, and other warships of His Majesties Navy, along with the fighting men of the marines can arrive anywhere at any time by sea, air and land to defend Britain's interests. Are you watching Mussolini? "
Wednesday January 15 began with the launch, an hour before dawn of four Seafires, two of which patrolled the airspace around the Invincible and the other pair flew on to Berbera, where they landed at the RAF airstrip west of the town just after sun-up. As these aircraft landed air activity began over at RAF Khormaksar . Six Shorts Singapore aircraft set off to rendezvous with the fleet and collect a troop of parachute trained marines. It was this diay which began the Invincible's immortality with the British public.
Weeks later British cinema goers and then the movie goers in the dominions saw a four minute broadcast of the events on January 15th.
The news reel began simply with the narrator stating the name 'INVINCIBLE' followed by the wording British Red Sea Task Force. The pictures open to Chamberlain standing along with Amery and Eden on the roof of B turret of the newly arrived HMS Rodney. As the scene widens we view the stern on the Valiant guns already turned to port. Rodney's A turrets triple 15" guns rise and slowly traverse to port, all carefully narrated by the commentator. The shots now go the the bow of the Invincible as we see four Seafires launched. Then onto the Vindictive. "On one of Churchill's Commando Carriers, We can observe one of Samuel Whites MLC's being lowered into the waves then a Vickers tank being placed onboard." The narrator continues to describe the boarding of the marines on 9RMLI on their Thorneycroft LCA's. More shots of Seafires being launched under the watchful eyes of Captain Royle and Commander Seymour from the bridge.
Further shots showed Marines parachute unto "key road junctions" followed by the arrival of a convoy in their Morris CS, CDSW trucks and armoured cars. "Seafires from HMS Invincible roar overhead at breakneck speed in support of the marines on the ground" yells the commentator excitedly. What he doesn't inform the public is of the need of the Seafires to refuel at the RAF's improvised airstrip outside Berbera. The newsreel ends with shots of the Vickers Medium tanks dug in at the frontier. Again unrevealed these were the tanks of 11RMLI's strike group which had been deployed mounts previously. "The power of the Royal Navy's strike group, ensures the frontiers of the empire, keeping us all safe in today's troubled days. HMS Invincible, and other warships of His Majesties Navy, along with the fighting men of the marines can arrive anywhere at any time by sea, air and land to defend Britain's interests. Are you watching Mussolini? "
What was the opposition doing? The Americans
In the real world they first tried to get as many carriers as possible out of the remaining 69,000 tons. That is five 13,800 ton carriers. The first ship CV.4 Ranger was ordered in FY30. Although she actually displaced 14,500 tons when completed she was not a satisfactory ship.
Therefore CV.5 Yorktown and CV.6 Enterprise ordered in FY33 were built to a larger design displacing 19,900 tons (according to Jane's Fighting Ships 1939).
There was a return to smaller dimensions with the next carrier CV.7 Wasp which displaced 14,700 tons. This was because she was ordered in FY35 and the 135,000 ton limit was still in force.
In the late 1930s Congress authorised an increase in the US Aircraft Carrier force to 175,000 tons. CV.8 Hornet was ordered in FY39 as a repeat Yorktown so that it could be built quickly. However, CV.9 was built to a new design the 27,100 ton Essex class. The first eleven (CV.9 to CV.19) were ordered in FY40 as part of the Two Ocean Navy program.
Here the Americans have 94,000 tons and I suggest that the Americans initially try for seven 13,400 ton carriers. The first ship is stlll Ranger and she still comes out at 14,500 tons, which leaves the Americans with 79,500 tons. This means that Yorktown and Enterprise are still ordered in FY33, but two more Yorktown class are ordered in FY35 instead of Wasp. After that we go back to the real world with Congress increasing the size of the carrier fleet by 40,000 tons (but for a total of 200,000 tons) leading to a 5th (instead of a third) Yorktown class being ordered in FY39 and the first 11 Essex class in FY40.
Therefore in December 1941 the USN has 8 aircraft carriers instead of 7, but 7 of them are satisfactory ships instead of 5.
In the real world they first tried to get as many carriers as possible out of the remaining 69,000 tons. That is five 13,800 ton carriers. The first ship CV.4 Ranger was ordered in FY30. Although she actually displaced 14,500 tons when completed she was not a satisfactory ship.
Therefore CV.5 Yorktown and CV.6 Enterprise ordered in FY33 were built to a larger design displacing 19,900 tons (according to Jane's Fighting Ships 1939).
There was a return to smaller dimensions with the next carrier CV.7 Wasp which displaced 14,700 tons. This was because she was ordered in FY35 and the 135,000 ton limit was still in force.
In the late 1930s Congress authorised an increase in the US Aircraft Carrier force to 175,000 tons. CV.8 Hornet was ordered in FY39 as a repeat Yorktown so that it could be built quickly. However, CV.9 was built to a new design the 27,100 ton Essex class. The first eleven (CV.9 to CV.19) were ordered in FY40 as part of the Two Ocean Navy program.
Here the Americans have 94,000 tons and I suggest that the Americans initially try for seven 13,400 ton carriers. The first ship is stlll Ranger and she still comes out at 14,500 tons, which leaves the Americans with 79,500 tons. This means that Yorktown and Enterprise are still ordered in FY33, but two more Yorktown class are ordered in FY35 instead of Wasp. After that we go back to the real world with Congress increasing the size of the carrier fleet by 40,000 tons (but for a total of 200,000 tons) leading to a 5th (instead of a third) Yorktown class being ordered in FY39 and the first 11 Essex class in FY40.
Therefore in December 1941 the USN has 8 aircraft carriers instead of 7, but 7 of them are satisfactory ships instead of 5.
Last edited:
What originally put the idea for this was that, reading between the lines, the American's weren't really happy with the way carrier development was going OTL so I changed things sort off, ok if that's what you want we'll play along. Therefore NIMISYRUC's American's development does fit the logical pattern. Once again, thanks for the valuable input. (I'm such a crawler)
Can any-one explain to me how to put photos onto the thread. I've tried to put some up, unsuccessfully I case you hadn't noticed, computers weren't invented when I was at school
I figure that they're they'd probably also try some new-build light carriers, based on the Vindictive/Vengence model, perhaps a "9,950 ton" carrier on a Portland/New Orleans-class hull? 32 knots, good range, decent armor, and 24 to 30 planes?What originally put the idea for this was that, reading between the lines, the American's weren't really happy with the way carrier development was going OTL so I changed things sort off, ok if that's what you want we'll play along. Therefore NIMISYRUC's American's development does fit the logical pattern. Once again, thanks for the valuable input. (I'm such a crawler)
Two options. The first is to upload the images, one-per-post, using the attachments feature. You'll see "manage attachments" below the edit post box, under "Additional options." You can also embed images hosted off-site in text using the "Insert image" button, the little icon of a moon and mountain next to the speech-bubble "quote" icon in the line directly above the text box.Can any-one explain to me how to put photos onto the thread. I've tried to put some up, unsuccessfully I case you hadn't noticed, computers weren't invented when I was at school
So the Seafire predates the Spitfire and the Sea Gladiator in squadron service by three years, and the HS404 is fixed five years earlier. I'm getting the drift of it.
Monoplane naval fighters in service in 1936?
How much does this seafire resemble OTL's version.
Considering the range and undercarriage issues, not a lot is my guess.
How much does this seafire resemble OTL's version.
Considering the range and undercarriage issues, not a lot is my guess.
In this TL Supermarine win the F7/30 not Gloster, so no Sea Gladiator. The production model Seafire is a Supermarine 224 improved with a peregrine engine with looks similar to the OTL spitfire, to which it will evolve as improvements and Merlin engine added. Things happen a bit quicker and in reverse thanks to RNAS contacts in both government and industry.
Just noticed the cannon on Seafire pics. Oops!
Just noticed the cannon on Seafire pics. Oops!
Another thing that occurs is that Hawker will be seriously testing wing design with their new fighter, which I doubt will be of mixed wood, metal, and fabric, construction like OTL's Hurricane.