Who was Grand Duke of Tuscany at the time of the Congress of Vienna and where they a descendant of Cosimo III’s son Ferdinando?
Also, does Lombardy continue to use the regnal numbers of the Dukes of Milan?
Hail, Britannia: A New History
- Thread starter LeinadB93
- Start date
Also, does Lombardy continue to use the regnal numbers of the Dukes of Milan?
Very sensible. Got one of us on this. I love to see it. He’s done great work.
Without the unrestricted reprisals between the 2 revolts of OTL and the killing of most leaders, and with the survival of Karađorđe’s more education-focused government in league with Vojvodinian intellectual returnees, a surviving western-trained army recruited from veterans of Austria’s Serbian Freikoros, and a general head start with a few extra years of existence, Serbia could do way better ITTL than IOTL, especially since Karađorđe seems more willing to talk to compromise-minded advisors.
That saod Karađorđe and most of his descendants were less politicaly savvy than the Obrenovići so maybe they screw things up.
Highly based
Which states lean to whom? How are Serbo-Montenegrin relations?
No problem, but from my perspective, you're either underestimating much smaller butterflies per these "sufficient differences" or merely handwaving them to maintain the presentation of the map to stay relatively recognizable to otl without taking into account why some events happened as they did. As per my earlier comment, many of the changes we saw iotl were indicative of the circumstances -- very immediate events I may add. The East Frisia debacle is rather expressive of said circumstances. To give some less but still relevant info, Friedrich Wilhelm III was quite attached to the territory. It was rather extraordinary that he parted ways with East Frisia. Würzburg was originally, after the late mediazation in the Holy Roman Empire, Bavarian, which is why it was easy to send the Tuscan Habsburg back to Tuscany and his defunct Napoleonic realm back to the Bavarians. In essence, there is a wider personal investment within many territories swapped & received. I do think it'd be unreasonable to have you read biographies of any relatively important figure of any period to truly get the whole picture because otherwise, you'll never get anything done. This is from experience...
I'm rather oblivious to any intricate lore of ttl, so many of my observations are unintentionally shooting in the dark. Prussia being seen as a reconciled power has rather large implications that could be addressed better. Saxony being shafted, with a majority of its territory being ceded to Prussia seems debatable considering the diplomatic thrashing of the Polish-Saxon Crisis of otl. Posen itself going to Prussia iotl was from a personal agreement between Prussia & Russia during Napoleon's retreat; does this treaty still happen -- I doubt it. In fact, Prussia aligning with Napoleon seems more like Congress Poland would not happen. Prussia simply has too much power projection for Britain alone to force them to cede East Frisia to Hanover like Prussia was able to with the smaller German states (like Hesse-Darmstadt & Nassau-Orange); and the other great powers have very little interest in Britain's desire for North Sea hegemony to legitimize it. These are the topics that come to mind when thinking of an alternate CoV for ttl.
Welcome, one and all to the Official Thread for the relaunched and revamped series Hail, Britannia: A New History.
As people may recall, the original version of Hail, Britannia began in July 2015 and continued, on and off, until February 2021. Unfortunately, in addition to having a lot going on personally and professionally - and needing to take a break for my own wellbeing - I fell out of love with the project. The original canon of Hail, Britannia had gone through several major revisions and changes over the years (and hundreds of minor ones), and the original thread became cluttered with a lot of content that was out of date or inaccurate, and the sheer scale of the retcon needed was daunting. So I made the decision to shutter the original series.
Over the last 18+ months I have been working on a revamped version of Hail, Britannia, and that is the purpose of this new thread and this new timeline. This is very much a "spiritual successor" to the previous thread, and while some content and lore will remain the same (but updated and modernised), much of the series will be completely new. Before I go any further, I would like to extend my immense gratitude to all those on the forum who have offered their help, support and suggestions, both with the original and with my planning for the revamped version.
The main purpose of this thread is to serve as a repository for me to post updates and graphics about the Hail, Britannia universe.
Although I will be using this thread as a place to both store and bring together all of the content I have for this series, I want you all to feel that you are more than welcome to pitch in and ask questions, make comments and provide suggestions about how I can expand and improve the world of Hail, Britannia, whether in this thread or by sending me a message.
Given that the 2024 map has Serbia as a republic, assumedly there was a similar transition from Vozhddom to Republic at some point per the Abridged History of Modern Serbia from the original thread (though what that transition looks like in this version of Hail, Britannia only Leinad knows, plus there's always the potential of feedback from all of us spicing things up further).
LeinadB93
Monthly Donor
I don't have that information in front of me at the moment.
Yes they do.
Thanks both, always helps to have someone with more detailed knowledge of a particular region to help!!
Broadly speaking, Serbia’s 19th century history mirrors the V1 link from Damian0358 above. With a transition from monarchist Vozhddom to aristocratic republic in the post-1848 world. Now the 20th century sees some big divergences to OTL and V1, as evidenced by rump Croatia, enlarged Montenegro, and independent Bosnia.
Based on previous discussions:
- Serbia likely aligns itself with the French or the British, thinking the Russians are suspicious despite popular opinion and believing the Austrians to be opponents to wider Serbian unification.
- Montenegro likely aligns with whomever Serbia aligns with, at least initially.
- Bulgaria aligns with Russia.
- Greece and Aromania align with the British.
- Rumania likely aligns with whoever opposes Russia, so Britain or France.
- Albania aligns with the Austrians.
I completely take on board your comments, and I would be lying to say there aren't elements of both at place ITTL. It is worth pointing out that this is not a hard Alternate History, it's more a maps and graphics projects that is a bit of a thought experiment.
East Frisia could have been traded in exchange for Prussia annexing Westphalia and the coal-rich Ruhr region.
I suppose it could make sense for the deposed Medici's to follow the similar path of the OTL Tuscan Habsburgs, moving to Salzburg and then Würzburg before being restored to Tuscany at the Congress. With regards to Bavaria's treatment, they took part in TTLs Battle of Leipzig, and therefore were treated similarly to OTL Saxony - hence why Tyrol and Voralberg go to Austria and Franconia goes to Prussia.
I do think it'd be unreasonable to have you read biographies of any relatively important figure of any period to truly get the whole picture because otherwise, you'll never get anything done. This is from experience...
Oh tell me about it!!
All appreciated in the spirit in which they are intended
Sorry I may have mis-spoke. While Prussia did support Napoleon as per OTL, and eventually switched back to the Coalitions, there was a view ITTLs Congress to not reward them too much, so they were treated a bit less generously than OTL. The Posen agreement still happens, as does Congress Poland.
@Quacker did you mean to just quote the first post?
This is fair, I don't want to intrude where not needed.
The Westphalian area had been Prussian since mediatization. The areas expanded into were probable round-offs & ways to restore Prussia to its pre-war population (since it had lost a large amount of souls from the partitions of Poland & otl Franconian territories. You cannot trade what you already have.
Plus, the great powers cannot offer "coal-rich" areas when they didn't even know the area was flooded with coal. The pre-industrial mines existing in the Ruhr were not that large.
A lot of the reason why the Tuscan Habsburg was given various different realms after each deposition was because of Austria's influence & Napoleon's appeasement. I'm not entirely sure that the Medici's would be given the same treatment but I'm rather unfamiliar with Italian noble houses so I cannot really comment beyond that -- the Savoy & Bourbon houses didn't fair too well during the revolutionary wars there so I'm more inclined to think the latter.
The truth with Saxony was that it was damned before it even had a chance or choice to switch sides. Prussia wanted it all and Russia was willing to advocate it because Prussia would part ways with a large portion of its Polish territory. It wasn't that Saxony didn't try to switch sides but that they were ignored by the Prussians & Russians + Napoleon's army was camped in & around Saxony that made desertion extremely risky -- prior to Leipzig, Napoleon's defeat in Germany wasn't all that certain. Bavaria is a different story because Bavaria was extremely valuable to the coalition's cause & Metternich's plan for the future of Germany -- which is why Metternich was willing at the time to temporary abandon former Austrian possessions with the intent on getting Bavaria to join their side. Now, even if Bavaria foolishly stays aligned with Napoleon at Leipzig, you'd have to have cast a spell on the Bavarian court to not negotiate a switch in sides after the fact. After all, both Baden & Württemberg were with France at Leipzig but the Austrians nevertheless recognized their Napoleonic frontiers anyway. This is purely power politics at play by Metternich to reconstruct the Rheinbund into an Austrian sphere.
Can you expand on this if you can? While Prussia was in hindsight treated favorably to a degree, the intention of the Congress was to restore Prussia's former population of about 9.8 million, after the Congress it had a population of 10.3 million which isn't all that much larger.
LeinadB93
Monthly Donor
Thanks.
True much of it was Prussian, but it was later lost to Westphalia and then the French Empire. I don't think it's unreasonable to see the full Westphalia region given to Prussia (in addition to the whole of Franconia) to offset the loss of East Frisia.
Fair point about the coal-rich areas... but the Ruhr was already beginning to develop into an industrialised area so that would be beneficial to Prussia.
Touche... this would then butterfly the whole Salzburg-Wurzburg swap, and so potentially Salzburg is Austrian, and then Wurzburg is traded for Bavarian gains in Tyrol which are reversed at the Congress. Then Wurzburg is given to Prussia alogn with Ansbach and Bayreuth to form Prussian Franconia.
All reasonable points. Bavaria would switch sides post Leipzig, and ITTL Baden and Württemberg do lose some territory at the Congress. Bavarian Franconia is sacrificed to Prussia.
The Congress never really set out to restore populations (or souls). Also, with Prussia not getting the Rhineland it needs to get something else.
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I suppose my point is rather that Prussia had gain these territories (Westphalia + Rhine) without giving up EF. Franconia is the supposed replacement for the Rhine ittl, so it still doesn't make all that much sense for lose EF. Considering the significantly lower population of Franconia compared to the Rhine, it wouldn't seem all that reasonable for Prussia to part ways with the territory. When push comes to shove, Liverpool (or whoever is PM right now) & the rest of the cabinet isn't going to die on a hill for Hanover here. Considering American involvement in British parliament, it seems Hanover would be left to dry past its initial restoration more.
Much of the protoindustrial areas were built by Prussia. The smaller states that possessed territory in the future Westphalia area were still rather agrarian and lack any manufacturing. For instance, the former Duchy of Westphalia that was mediatized by Hesse-Darmstadt in 1803 had many lead and iron mines, but they were not utilized very well by HD outside of exportation. If any contemporary area would truly be beneficial to Prussia, it'd by the remainder of Saxony. But considering the great power's reluctance to expand Prussia ittl, even the territory they got from Saxony should come into question considering Saxony's value.
Who owns Wurzburg for the intermediate period in this case though? If Bavaria still trades it for its expansion into Austria proper ittl, the area is left in a limbo. There also has to be some benefit for Bavaria to switch sides + a benefit for Austria. If Austria here is simply seizing the territory then jeopardize the restoration of Austrian predominance in Germany. It wouldn't be wise for Austria to portray itself as an aggressor to the other German states or they might align themselves with Prussia for protection which would be a disaster to Austrian foreign policy.
The congress system can fail later per you tl, but it's primary goal not being European equilibration seems incredibly odd. The alternative to the Rhineland, at least as otl was concerned was the entirety of Saxony. Besides the point, Prussia didn't even want the Rhineland iotl. It's goal was dominance of Germany north of the Mainz.
Given the enlarged nature of Montenegro paired with its association with the Italians through the Latin Monetary Union, there's probably a high chance for disagreement between the Serbs and the Montenegrins, especially if there's an attitude among the latter (or at least, an attitude among the latter's elite, i.e. the royal family and its court) that Montenegro should lead the charge in the unification of, first of all the Serbs and then, the South Slavic people as a whole - which probably means that the Montenegrins likely align with the French, and if the French openly affirm the Montenegrin position, that probably sets up the British as ideal for the Serbians (and puts them together with the Greeks and Aromanians).
LeinadB93
Monthly Donor
I do take you point, and so it seems like it would make more sense for East Frisia and the former Bishopric of Munster going to Prussia. Leaving Hanover restricted to more or less it's 1789 borders.
Thanks for that information
Hmm... possibly it remains Bavarian as there is no need for the Salzburg-Wurzburg swap for the Tuscan Habsburgs.
There's no way I can see for Prussia to be given all of Saxony. But the point about Prussia not wanting the Rhineland and it's goal of dominance north of the Mainz is useful.
Ah that's very interesting and good to know! Thanks
will certainly have an impact on 19th and 20th century history.Any reason for the alternate name of Bioko?
And what's with Sassandra? Did someone else establish it as a Liberia-expy?
And what's with Sassandra? Did someone else establish it as a Liberia-expy?
LeinadB93
Monthly Donor
The name Bioko comes from a politician. Could have gone for Fernando Po, but decided to use a variation of the native name for the island.
Yes, Texas did in the late 19th century after they finally abolished slavery.
Was Austria the original ruler of all the Mandates, or did other countries rule them?
- Are there any countries that have the Portuguese monarch as their head of state besides Portugal itself?
- Does the Canary Islands have the British Emperor as their monarch?
- Did Muhammad V of Morocco become King earlier than in OTL?
Two things got me on the (former) Portuguese Africa here:
First, that Cape Verde and São Tomé and Princípe are still standing on the dominions of Portugal, but every single territory into the continental Africa but Mazagan achieved his independence. That's a interesting development on my vision. Second, it's that brokered Angola dominion - that originally and I had to make this reference - it's a good solution to comprehend a solution for Cabinda and, by the way, for the V1 Benguela question (that entered as a Brazilian viceroyalty).
Anyway, another great piece of work, @LeinadB93. Keep going!
First, that Cape Verde and São Tomé and Princípe are still standing on the dominions of Portugal, but every single territory into the continental Africa but Mazagan achieved his independence. That's a interesting development on my vision. Second, it's that brokered Angola dominion - that originally and I had to make this reference - it's a good solution to comprehend a solution for Cabinda and, by the way, for the V1 Benguela question (that entered as a Brazilian viceroyalty).
Anyway, another great piece of work, @LeinadB93. Keep going!
Borders so familiar to OTL... plus ça change. I am not ignorant, though, of that interests of colonial powers would probably not diverge drastically from OTL by the 19th century, leading to such similar borders.
What interests me, however, is Stellaland. I assumed it was part of British Africa like all its neighbors that simply went rouge presumably because they disagreed with London over whether Black people deserve basic rights, à la OTL Rhodesia. This, however, is clearly not the case since it is shown to have been independent from the Empire the whole time. So in that case, what are they?
Oh, also, is Greek Cyrenaica still a mandate, or has it been integrated into Greece more since then?