WOW! loving this, I was thinking about writing somthing similar to this but didn't have the knowledge base to do so. Im excited to see how this pans out in the long run!
Enjoying this time line.
Hope I'm not going on too much about the deer. But do their herders have a way of ranging them, like our sheep and cattle, or do they use heavy fences, like our red deer? If they do fence them, does such property become a highly desirable prize of war, or are there customs to keep it out of the fray? Do they castrate most, any, or no males? How do they handle rut?
And how does the society handle the effects of the nicotine plant, especially on overdose?
Not trying to discourage you. I hope this tl goes on a long time.
WOW! loving this, I was thinking about writing somthing similar to this but didn't have the knowledge base to do so. Im excited to see how this pans out in the long run!
Thank you, General Finley. Very satisfactory answer! This sounds an interesting society.
Has nicotine use been institutionalised, or is it a private matter?
By the way, compliments on your map.
Now I know I may be asking for too much info too early but im interested to know if you will include domestication of bison, importation of llamas and alpacas, or potatoes from south america. Oh and will you have them invent the wheel, that would certainly be helpfull.
Also what role do dogs play are they used for hearding purposes etc?
Nicotiana rustica is far stronger than common tobacco and its use in our timeline was fairly restricted since the effects are much more dramatic than with smoking a cigarette. Unless strains with lower nicotine content are developed, N. rustica probably isn't going to catch on as well in the rest of the world as N. tabacum.oops, I just realiezed that I didn't answer your question about the plant.
smoking of the plant is fairly restricted to shamans at this time. This will likely change in the future, but as things are at the moment we don't have things like huka bars or mainstream smoking by a large section of the populous.
Haha, taking inspiration from my Salmon and Totems TL?
I watch with interest
Great timeline Agricultural PODs are always interesting.
Just one nitpick: The color in elderberries is quite unstable and breaks down rapidly in light and oxygen, so it would probably not be used on pottery and for tattoos. Even as a fabric dye it is not particularly long lasting. Iron or copper salts might improve the lasting quality, but they would change the color. For tattoos, soot or black iron oxide would work better, and pottery is generally colored with minerals instead of organic material. Purple ceramics are actually quite difficult to achieve. Copper salts can sometimes make purple, but are hard to control, and I'm not sure even the Europeans had technology to achieve purple.
Nicotiana rustica is far stronger than common tobacco and its use in our timeline was fairly restricted since the effects are much more dramatic than with smoking a cigarette. Unless strains with lower nicotine content are developed, N. rustica probably isn't going to catch on as well in the rest of the world as N. tabacum.
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Comments? Questions? Thoughts?
Beyond a few minor typos and run-on sentences, I'm enthralled. Please, go on.
glad you like it, I'll ry and fix the typos.
1) The Natives have now experienced some heavy disease issues (some which will be endemic), thus we can expect their immune systems to be _somewhat_ stronger against future European (or Asian? or African?) contact. Somewhat, but not hardened against Smallpox and such. Speaking of...
2) I am assuming, despite the arguments of the *Pro-Butterfly Revisionists [1], that even with such a massive change in the New World, events in the Old World will continue more or less apace with OTL, yes? I ask this because one could argue that an infinitesimal particle on the winds could butterfly such things as Smallpox. Rather absurd, possibly, but I just wanted to check on how far you plan to deviate events outside of the Americas.
3) With aridity of the southwest, the lack of a suitable cross-country mount - again, assuming the domesticated deer will remain a pack animal and not become a transport vehicle, whatever the breeding - and the expanses of the Gulf (for now), I am wondering about contact/interaction with the MesoAmerican cultures. That is, I know you mitigated the avian flu-like issue based on the lack of contact, so the MesoAmericans might then continue to lack the immunity as in OTL. However, you left it open-ended by saying: "death rates caused by purple kiss would remain low except when introduced to populations that had never come in contact with the virus." So conceivably there might be future contact - and devastation - of the MesoAmericans, even before Europeans make landfall. That is, of course, assuming contact intra-Americas is made first.
4) Which brings up this question - and I apologize if I'm jumping the gun with all this hind-sighting nonsense, if so just tell me "RAFO" [2] - about the southern refugee migrations and the Mississippian culture. Well, for one, I'm wonder as to their exact location. I'm assuming that (from this map) they are likely in the "Middle Mississippian" around the Kincaid/Wickliffe sort of 'central' location where the Ohio meets the Mississippi. Which makes sense, really, as its the natural cross-country collection of navigable waterways and I'm sure canoes are happily utilized by all Natives by now. That area leads off to the North to the Western Great Lakes region and the city-states fighting there with all their coppery goodness, runs off into the Northeast a bit through and past the Adena's old homeland in Ohio, runs south and east down into the Appalachian foothills of Florence/Shiloh, off to the west as far as the Rockies foothills, as well as being the main artery of the entire continent flushing out into the Gulf.
So ignoring the 'exact' location as yet, let's move on to the actual question (I'm sorry, in a rambling sort of headmood): Will we see, on into the future without too many spoilers, a more southern/coastal society that will develop any sort maritime tradition? Could be interesting to see, but then, I don't know that the natives would want to do so without trade being the driving force. And for that sort of desire for trade, there would have to be pretty regular contact with MesoAmerica for said desire to develop, as well as that MesoAmerican society surviving strong enough, long enough against the 'Purple Kiss' issue.
AND FINALLY... a two-part question - on Culture.
5a) As these fellas now have a writing system, an increasing religious stance what with all their mound-temples, and the sure-to-come ensuing trade network... how similar with this belief system/culture be to the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex of OTL? I can only assume it will share some characteristics, but certainly not all. You know, Butterflies and whatnot. And how unified is the area by this point? Still city-states where the bigger mound brings more prestige/power over neighbors with smaller mounds?
5b) In the Great Lakes region, there has been little said - beyond 'warlike' - culturally there. I expect those fellas to potentially end up like the Maya as far as constant low-level warfare where 'kings' or whatever elites appear are constantly propped up, opposed, executed, and so forth and the 'prestige' of a city-state comes from how many enemy kings they have killed - NOT by how much land they have conquered. In Classical Maya while there was *some* conquest, the gains were never long-lasting as there seemed always to be a new issue elsewhere. However... one issue with the Maya (and Aztec) was the simple lack of a pack animal to carry supplies. This made their campaigning seasons very short as each soldier carried their own food stuffs. How long do you think an army can do that in the field? These guys don't have that sort of issue - indeed, presumably none who have the domesticated deer will have such an issue. So I guess my question is this - less a direct clarification answer than the others - Will we see any more detailed cultural aspects of the Great Lakes societies? That is, will they all belong largely to the 'same' cultural group, or will they - over time - split off into varying groups. That sort of thing. Just something to think about...
Okay so I'll try and answer your questions to the best of my abilities (and without spoilers).
It also means that the disease exchange will be a two way street since Europeans will have no immunity to Purple Kiss.
I'm going under the assumption that there is a butterfly net around North America since they aren't directly contributing to any of the going ons of Asia, Africa or Europe. Until contact happens don't expect any differences in the Old World.
I don't really want to give to much away on this topic, I left it open because I'm unsure about whether there will be contact or not.
Because of this contact between the Mississippian and the Sawasmoshupshe will be limited for most of the early Classic Period.
I can assure you that there will be at least one coastal society that will have a maritime (to some degree). The Mississippians may not be the people that eventually do this, but it will happen between now and 1492.
I mostly skipped out on describing them in this update because I'm doing a seperate update that details the Mississipian People and the Great Lakes people. The next update should answer all of your question and will be an in depth development of the two people's and the pastoralists of the Ohio River basin. This update was mostly about getting through the "Dark Age" and the collapse to get to the Classic Period.
Cool, and let me say that those were some very good responses.
Truth be told, I hadn't thought of that in this scenario. I've kicked around some ideas of America-to-Europe death diseases as a kind of mirror of OTL, but in this situation it hadn't occurred to me. Very cool.
Good deal, just wanted to check.
Not a problem. I tend to not look to far into the future in my own TLs, because I don't really want an 'end goal' because that's not exactly how the people of the TL see it. They kind of live with the rolling of the punches/passing of the years, so that's kind of how I write. I appreciate your candor.
Interesting...
Ah, excellent! I really like what you're doing here, hence the pestering. But don't let me spoil it.
Still enjoying it. I definitely like the textbook blending OTL and ATL civilisations together. Thanks for the references, too.
The only trouble is, these cultures we're passing through sound so interesting, I'd like to hear a lot more about them! Guess I'll have to suffer.